21:01:30 <kanarip> #startmeeting Spins SIG
21:01:37 <kanarip> wow ;-)
21:01:41 <kanarip> #chair nirik
21:01:48 <brunowolff> I have a tentative agenda at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Spins_SIG_Meeting_2009-07-27
21:01:59 <kanarip> #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Spins_SIG_Meeting_2009-07-27
21:02:17 <kanarip> #topic Recurring Spins Process
21:02:37 <kanarip> ho, i forget something
21:02:41 <kanarip> who's here? ;-)
21:02:53 <brunowolff> present
21:02:59 <maxamillion> nirik: thanks for the reminder
21:03:21 * nirik is here somewhat. ;)
21:03:34 <kanarip> ok, on to our first topic then
21:04:05 <kanarip> When I said it was basic I meant it, I've not spent too much attention to it this week but here's a basic flow for recurring spins: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Spins_SIG/Drafts/Recurring_Spins_Process
21:05:30 <kanarip> any comments?
21:05:50 <brunowolff> When should spins get added to the per release category?
21:06:06 <brunowolff> Is that at GA, branch, something different?
21:06:19 <kanarip> when they are accepted as official spins, and when they are +1 at Feature Freeze
21:06:53 <kanarip> i added that just now
21:07:03 * huff here
21:07:10 <kanarip> hi huff ;-)
21:07:54 <kanarip> is there anything else we should think of wrt to recurring spins?
21:08:08 <sdziallas> kanarip: looks pretty straight-forward to me :)
21:08:18 <kanarip> well ok then
21:08:32 <nirik> yeah, seems fine, we can grow it if more is needed.
21:08:38 <maxamillion> +1 for the draft, its pleasantly to the point
21:08:44 <kanarip> can i get some +1's and then move it into the official Spins_Process (a little more verbose then this version of course)
21:08:50 <brunowolff> Somewhere should document how to adjust the spin web pages for release.
21:09:01 <sdziallas> +1 from me, too ;)
21:09:28 <kanarip> brunowolff, Spins_SIG_Wrangling_Documentation? ;-)
21:09:56 <brunowolff> +1 for recurring spins process
21:10:18 <nirik> +1 here, it makes sense to me.
21:10:32 <brunowolff> That seems like it would be better as it can get referred to from a few places without duplicating things.
21:10:36 <kanarip> #agreed Recurring Spins Process @ https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Spins_SIG/Drafts/Recurring_Spins_Process to go into the official Spins_Process
21:10:58 <kanarip> #action kanarip to integrate Recurring Spins Process in Spins_Process
21:11:04 <kanarip> #topic Discontinued Spins Process
21:11:04 <kanarip> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Discontinued_Spins_Process
21:11:14 <kanarip> brunowolff, take it away sir!
21:11:36 <brunowolff> I think the main things are determining when to continue a spin discontinued and
21:11:57 <brunowolff> what to do once one has been determined to be discontinued.
21:12:25 <kanarip> right
21:12:32 <brunowolff> As for what needs to get done, I think adjusting the spin web page and dealing with the ks file should cover it.
21:12:57 <kanarip> wrt. the former; you hit it right on the spot, although a week may be a little short
21:13:04 <brunowolff> I made some guesses for both, though the ks part depends on the ks reorganization to some extent.
21:13:27 <brunowolff> A week was minimum. Is a month too long?
21:13:45 <kanarip> wrt. the latter; if the kickstart is declared dead then i guess there's no reason in shipping it to the user in the form of a package either
21:14:12 <kanarip> how about we say, 2 weeks (2 Spins SIG meetings)
21:14:27 <brunowolff> My thoughts on the ks is that we would be less likely to mess up history by moving it to an attic directory in the event that
21:14:27 <nirik> sounds fine to me.
21:14:38 <brunowolff> someone wants to resurrect it later.
21:14:49 <kanarip> we don't mess up history anyway since it's git
21:14:56 <brunowolff> It also might be more likely to be resurrected if it is still somewhat visible.
21:14:59 <kanarip> it's practically impossible to mess up history ;-)
21:15:40 <brunowolff> If people recover the deleted version rather than recreate it as a new file.
21:16:01 <brunowolff> I was thinking the odds of that happening were nonneglible,
21:16:41 <kanarip> well we could always ship'em but how do we make it clear it's dead?
21:16:49 <kanarip> put it in a spin-kickstarts-dead package?
21:17:32 <brunowolff> I updated the delay to two weeks in the docuement.
21:17:47 <kanarip> ok, that sounds fine to me
21:18:09 <kanarip> i say we just remove unmaintained kickstarts
21:18:14 <maxamillion> kanarip: maybe spin-kickstarts-retired ... -dead sounds morbid to me for some reason :/
21:18:24 <brunowolff> I was (perhaps incorrectly) thinking the spin-kickstarts package would have directories reflecting those in git (that don't exist
21:18:39 <brunowolff> yet, but that we were thinking of doing).
21:18:39 <kanarip> we can leave the page in Spins_in_Development and link to the most recent version, and it'll exist in branches, but not in master
21:19:26 <kanarip> the spin-kickstarts package (which imho is a bad name to begin with) will have some kind of directory structure, but that's the next topic
21:20:04 <kanarip> ok, +1 for the draft as it is now
21:20:05 <brunowolff> If we end up getting a lot of them, we may need a new category. But for now spins_in_development should be OK.
21:20:08 <kanarip> anyone else?
21:20:33 <brunowolff> Let me adjust the ks disposition text.
21:21:36 <brunowolff> +1 for doc as is.
21:23:05 <kanarip> nirik, maxamillion, sdziallas, how about you?
21:23:40 <nirik> +1 here... seems fine to me.
21:23:50 <nirik> they can get the ks back from git if it gets revived later.
21:23:56 <kanarip> ok, that's a majority
21:24:01 <sdziallas> +1 too
21:24:06 <kanarip> #agreed Discontinued Spins Process @ https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Discontinued_Spins_Process
21:24:06 <kanarip> #action brunowolff to integrate Discontinued_Spins_Process in Spins_Process
21:24:07 <kanarip> #topic Review splitting up spin-kickstarts from kanarip
21:24:07 <kanarip> #link http://fpaste.org/paste/20065
21:24:07 <kanarip> 'fedora-kickstarts': Official Fedora Spins
21:24:08 <kanarip> 'custom-kickstarts': Kickstart files for Custom Spins (not official)
21:24:10 <kanarip> 'l10n-kickstarts': Localized version of Fedora Spins and Custom Spins
21:24:23 <kanarip> I can type really really fast as you can see
21:24:24 <kanarip> ;-)
21:26:57 <brunowolff> Are these going to be directories in git AND in the spin-kickstarts package or just in git?
21:27:53 <brunowolff> This important for includes.
21:27:56 <kanarip> they are going to be separate RPM packages and separate directories in git if it's up to me
21:28:28 <brunowolff> But even separate packages could potentially be in the same directory.
21:28:40 <brunowolff> Also we need to worry about dependencies.
21:28:44 <nirik> seperate packages? or subpackages?
21:28:54 <maxamillion> I'm ok with it, I think it makes sense to have them separate so that there is a clear definition for what is "official" and what is "an accepted custom spin"
21:29:07 <brunowolff> Presumably the l10n package would depend on the fedora-kickstarts package.
21:29:30 <brunowolff> But we may need rules for the custom-kickstarts being able to include stuff.
21:30:12 <kanarip> brunowolff, that's not actually a worry, everything requires fedora-kickstarts, l10n- requires all
21:30:24 <kanarip> nirik, "sub" packages but named differently
21:30:34 <kanarip> "spin-kickstarts" is going to have it all
21:30:43 <brunowolff> Can a custom spin include an l10n ks?
21:30:46 <nirik> that sounds fine to me.
21:31:00 <kanarip> brunowolff, i think the  official broffice.org spin does so already
21:31:04 <brunowolff> I am not saying that it should be able to, but we should document limitations.
21:31:31 <kanarip> the localized versions are sort of a Free for All
21:31:48 <kanarip> there's limitations to what one can do, but they are not actual spins and they are not actual custom spins
21:32:15 <kanarip> either way, these same limitations apply currently
21:32:23 <kanarip> or *lack of limitations*
21:32:36 <brunowolff> My question is are custom-spins allowed to depend on l10n spins? That has implcations for rpm dependencies and
21:32:44 <brunowolff> wrangler documentation.
21:32:45 <kanarip> shuffling the location on the filesystem and changing the name of the package doesn't change that
21:33:05 <kanarip> well, custom-spins as a package is not going to depend on l10n-spins
21:33:33 <brunowolff> Then we should document that custom spins may not include l10n ks files.
21:33:41 <kanarip> it's either a spin, or it's a different l10n version of an existing spin in custom- or fedora-
21:33:46 <kanarip> does that make sense?
21:33:51 <maxamillion> kanarip: but wouldn't that break the broffice spin if its already using the l10n as an include?
21:34:05 <kanarip> maxamillion, it's not using the l10n as an include
21:34:24 <brunowolff> OK, then I think we are on the same page.
21:34:24 <kanarip> it's a custom spin that just so happens to also do l10n because it's purpose is limited to pt_BR
21:34:42 <kanarip> alright then
21:34:55 <brunowolff> But we should add a wrangler note to verify that custom spins do not include l10n ks files.
21:35:02 <maxamillion> kanarip: ah, I misunderstood
21:35:05 <kanarip> so the naming makes sense? fedora-kickstarts, custom-kickstarts, l10n-kickstarts, and spin-kickstarts to wrap it all up?
21:35:25 <brunowolff> That seems pretty reasonable.
21:35:28 <nirik> brunowolff: that should be the sigs job to check the spin when it's approved here, IMHO
21:35:37 * nirik nods. Makes sense to me.
21:35:41 <kanarip> brunowolff, the ks itself is actually a review item for the Spins SIG, the wrangler just oversees the process
21:36:00 <kanarip> ok, can i get sufficient +1's?
21:36:03 <brunowolff> Right, but the wrangler does the checking on our behalf and it should be on the checklist.
21:36:04 <kanarip> +1 from me ;-)
21:36:19 <nirik> +1 here
21:36:20 <brunowolff> I guess I have it backwards.
21:36:29 <brunowolff> +1 for layout proposal
21:36:36 <maxamillion> +1
21:37:19 <sdziallas> and +1 here ;) - makes sense to me!
21:37:47 <kanarip> #agreed split up the crown jewels (spin-kickstarts package)!
21:37:55 <kanarip> #action kanarip to build and release to rawhide
21:38:13 * huff has to head to class, I will check logs later if yall need any thing send me an email
21:38:22 <kanarip> #topic Spins_in_Development, Spins_Ready_for_Wrangler, Spins_Ready_for_SIG
21:38:25 <kanarip> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Spins_Ready_for_Wrangler
21:38:33 <kanarip> this is the first category on our list
21:38:36 <kanarip> the oVirt spin
21:38:38 <huff> i guess i can stay for a bit
21:38:53 <huff> im still waiting on the pacakges to get into rawhide
21:38:54 <kanarip> huff, that's yours ;-)
21:39:01 <huff> as soon as they are ill send an email to the list
21:39:08 <kanarip> the Feature Freeze is tomorrow :/
21:39:14 <huff> i know
21:39:22 <kanarip> but also, how can we test this?
21:39:46 <kanarip> is this intended to go the full nine yards? trademark approval? release by fp.o officially?
21:39:52 <kanarip> or is this a custom- spin?
21:40:02 <huff> yes we would like the whole 9yards
21:40:14 <huff> is that going to be a problem with the current time frame
21:40:30 <huff> im hoping to have everything complete by tomrrow
21:40:35 <kanarip> ok so we need a description of the flow with which QA or anyone else can test if this spin works
21:41:04 <kanarip> i can only assume that since this is a node i also need a management system to control this node, no?
21:41:11 <huff> its just going to be a regular spin/livecd image built with our ks file.. is that what you mean
21:41:21 <huff> kanarip: it has a stand alone mode
21:41:36 <huff> with a limited menu
21:41:43 <huff> to run w/out a management serbver
21:41:45 <huff> server
21:41:49 <kanarip> but if i spin this, how do i test whether it does the ovirt it's supposed to do?
21:41:58 <huff> but the server team is also working ot get the ovirt-server in f12 as well
21:42:17 <huff> kanarip: you can boot it and run guest form the console
21:42:23 <huff> it has a
21:42:40 <huff> "fist boot" style menu to configure networking and run guests
21:42:51 <huff> i use first boot lightly
21:43:07 <huff> it has a menu to do basic configuration with out the server
21:43:20 <kanarip> you need to write that down in the Scope / Testing  section
21:43:25 <huff> kanarip: will do
21:44:09 <kanarip> also, technically, i'm afraid that fixing dhclient-script is out of the question
21:45:25 <kanarip> rpm -e --nodeps is also not allowed
21:45:42 <huff> kanarip: ok ill look at the we did that dude to an selinux issue however it may have been fixed in a policy updatge
21:45:46 <huff> update
21:46:04 <huff> i rebmmber seeing a bz about that
21:46:13 <kanarip> removal of kernel drivers needs to be motivated thoroughly
21:46:24 <kanarip> if there's a bz then it's a dependency for you
21:46:45 <kanarip> wow, removing .py files
21:47:19 <huff> i think it was resolved and fixed in ana update to selinux-core-policy
21:47:28 <brunowolff> Dan is usually pretty good at doing prompt selinux policy updates for problems.
21:47:50 <kanarip> huff, how does using the aos.ks as a basis sound?
21:48:03 <huff> yea dhclient script was doing a mv not a cp -a and causing the selinux context to change
21:48:06 <kanarip> if you want minimal to build on, they're after the exact same thing
21:48:47 <huff> kanarip: yea we added some more blacklisting to reduce size
21:48:52 <kanarip> but you can't really modify anything rpm puts on the filesystem without a very good reason, that's our rule of thumb
21:49:15 <kanarip> when in doubt, we ask other people but that obviously costs time
21:49:23 <kanarip> which we don't have for f-12 anymore
21:49:43 <huff> aos has all o pythong and yum we did not want all that and wanted ot keep it under 256M to fit on small usb key
21:50:20 <kanarip> but you can remove override it with -python* and -yum nowadays
21:50:34 <kanarip> the aos is ~130MB iirc
21:50:55 <brunowolff> Isn't yum required for spins?
21:51:22 <kanarip> we've not said it was a requirement but removing stuff from @base raises eyebrows, yes
21:52:55 <kanarip> there was a decision once on selinux that needed to be in enforcing, or permissive with very good reasons
21:53:02 <kanarip> either way; let's move on
21:53:14 <kanarip> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Incomplete_Spins
21:53:19 <brunowolff> If it is anticipated that people will use the install to disk feature, not having yum is going to be a pain.
21:53:19 <kanarip> most of which are recurring spins
21:53:59 <brunowolff> Can we talk about Games Spin this week, since I am going on vacation?
21:54:01 <kanarip> as you can see on http://www.kanarip.com/revisor/ on 20090725 this all built on i386
21:54:09 <huff> ok will Ill try to touch it up tonight and send an email to the list where we can continue this conversation via email, i guess a congency plan is to use aos as ase and add our packages and minimual configuration to get a working node
21:54:16 <kanarip> we need to talk about them all they need to be approved by tomorrow
21:55:42 <kanarip> so we need to talk about the recurring spins on that page
21:56:15 <sdziallas> kanarip: all spins (including the recurring ones) need to be approved by tomorrow? uh!
21:56:25 <kanarip> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/AOS_Spin +1
21:56:30 <kanarip> no rocket science there
21:56:54 <huff> +1
21:57:01 <huff> :)
21:57:31 <kanarip> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BrOffice.org_Spin oversized, again, but what else is now in the midst of a release cycle
21:57:58 <kanarip> it's 839 M right now, we need to contact igor about that
21:58:04 <kanarip> #action kanarip to contact igor
21:58:12 <brunowolff> That's a lot over for a CD spin.
21:58:22 <brunowolff> It might be hard to get back under.
21:58:42 <kanarip> sdziallas, you're in the list too: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Education_Spin
21:59:01 <kanarip> sdziallas, also oversized at ~766M
21:59:46 <kanarip> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ElectronicLab_Spin gets a +1 from me
21:59:47 <sdziallas> kanarip: yup :)... oh well, that's well possible. heh. I've a new concept some time ago in the repo... if no one objects, we'd move to a DVD spin.
22:00:17 <kanarip> sdziallas, there's limited slots for DVD spins and limited slot of CD spins
22:00:37 <kanarip> i think i talked about that with f13 once but i can't remember what the numbers are exactly
22:00:59 <sdziallas> kanarip: oh, okay... didn't knew that
22:01:06 <kanarip> brunowolff, your Games Spin is 3.9G on i386, nicely done ;-)
22:01:32 <brunowolff> Yeah I didn't add much, just colossus.
22:01:36 <kanarip> KDE spin is slightly oversized but I see no problems there either
22:01:54 <brunowolff> I gave up on lzma for this go around, so I haven't been looking to add stuff.
22:01:55 <kanarip> and of course the XFCE spin is undersized, nirik ;-)
22:02:05 <brunowolff> I do want to do more work on the test cases.
22:02:20 <maxamillion> kanarip: and we added roughly 6 xfce panel plugins as well as about 10 claws mail plugins :)
22:02:26 <kanarip> 58 minutes before another compose starts that will not run out of loop devices!
22:02:49 <kanarip> so, does anyone object against moving these spins to Category:Spins_Fedora_12?
22:03:43 <brunowolff> +1 on adding to F12.
22:04:05 <kanarip> anyone else?
22:04:18 * nirik is good with that,
22:04:34 <sdziallas> +1 (I guess the Edu Spin needs to be discussed re dvd size?)
22:04:49 <kanarip> sdziallas, yes
22:04:57 <kanarip> please aim for a CD size or i'm going to get into trouble
22:05:24 <kanarip> #action kanarip to add spins to spins fedora 12 category
22:05:35 <sdziallas> kanarip: heh. that's going to be funny... but okay, will do
22:05:37 <poelcat> kanarip: does somone want to update https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/12/FeatureList#Customized_Fedora_12_Spins to point to the F12 spins?
22:05:49 <kanarip> poelcat, ok
22:06:10 <kanarip> sdziallas, comment some stuff out while we're discussing what to do if you will
22:06:34 <sdziallas> kanarip: sure...
22:13:49 <brunowolff> Are we done for today?
22:13:54 <sdziallas> kanarip: discussing right now what to take away...
22:14:14 <kanarip> ohw sorry, yeah i think we're done unless someone has something to add?
22:14:22 <kanarip> nirik, want to say something on spin1?
22:14:29 <sdziallas> kanarip: when do you need it to be cd-size? (today, right?)
22:16:57 <brunowolff> I'll be getting back on the 10th and may or may not make that meeting.
22:17:45 <brunowolff> I am hoping to handout a few games spin disks at the board game convention I am intending, so I'll be doing some spin stuff yet this week.
22:20:32 <nirik> kanarip: sorry, got pulled away on work.
22:20:47 <nirik> kanarip: I was hoping to look at spin1 and see about setting up a nightly script to make isos...
22:21:08 <nirik> possibly maxamillion would be interested in helping on that too.
22:21:25 <kanarip> nirik, i'm afraid at some point we'll run into the exact same problems i do; loop devices and the like
22:21:53 <nirik> kanarip: I suppose we could reboot it when it hits that...
22:22:56 <nirik> will see if I can come up with something. ;(
22:23:32 <brunowolff> lsof might help find process ids.
22:24:12 <brunowolff> I tried that once though and didn't have much luck figuring out which processes had loop mounts open.
22:24:45 <brunowolff> I wasn't sure that there was something else going on with the loop mounts and just figured it was easier to reboot.
22:27:05 <nirik> yeah, I have seen it and been unable to track down whats keeping the mount busy.
22:27:11 <nirik> Oh well, shall we end the meeting? ;)
22:27:19 <brunowolff> +1
22:30:50 <kanarip> brunowolff, i can find the process id's i just can't kill them
22:30:59 <kanarip> #endmeeting