00:01:15 <Sparks> #startmeeting Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings
00:01:24 <Sparks> #topic Roll Call
00:01:26 * Sparks 
00:01:28 * danielsmw is here.
00:01:33 * itbegins is here
00:01:38 <jjmcd> hier ben ik
00:01:47 * ianweller 
00:01:59 * rudi is here
00:02:08 <ianweller> quaid: over here, not #fedora-meeting-1 ;)
00:03:11 <quaid> heh, like I can tell the difference in irssi
00:03:14 * quaid is here, too
00:03:58 <itbegins> ping me if you need me for a topic I can help with (i.e. the CMS)
00:04:24 * ianweller assigns itbegins to something non-CMS related ;)
00:04:34 <Sparks> itbegins: Oh we'll be talking CMS tonight
00:04:42 <itbegins> ianweller, I wouldn't do that if you want it to get done
00:04:48 <ianweller> hehe
00:05:38 <itbegins> Last week's work hours: 7.30-19.00, 7.30-18.30, 8.00-22.30, 8.00-22.30, 8.00-18.00
00:05:55 <itbegins> anyway, I'm polluting the meeting log...
00:06:00 <quaid> what? you took the weekend OFF?
00:06:09 * quaid *cough* slacker *cough* ;-D
00:06:25 <Sparks> Okay, let's get started...
00:06:28 <itbegins> quaid, no weekend working for the time being.  I get that off to explore Manhattan
00:06:37 <Sparks> #topic Last week's action items
00:06:45 <Sparks> Sparks to follow up with Pascal Calarco from News to make sure we are including all packages necessary for Zikula for them.
00:06:58 <Sparks> #action Sparks to follow up with Pascal Calarco from News to make sure we are including all packages necessary for Zikula for them. -- Second Alarm
00:07:09 <Sparks> Yeah, I didn't get that done.
00:07:19 <Sparks> Sparks to write rollout plan for license change... 2nd alarm
00:07:22 <Sparks> done
00:07:31 <Sparks> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/License_changeover_schedule
00:07:45 <Sparks> We'll come back to this one a little later.
00:07:54 <Sparks> rudi to help sparks on changing the fedora-brand in Publican for CC license
00:08:02 <Sparks> #action rudi to help sparks on changing the fedora-brand in Publican for CC license -- Second Alarm
00:08:17 <rudi> Well, I've got a sample in place here:
00:08:24 <rudi> http://rlandmann.fedorapeople.org/license/
00:08:24 <Sparks> rudi: We'll come back to this one but I think you are on the right track.
00:08:50 <Sparks> rudi: Cool.  We'll hit that one in a few when we get to the license discussion.
00:08:52 <rudi> Now including attribution information after discussions on the list yesterday
00:08:57 <rudi> KK
00:09:07 <Sparks> Sparks to package the three GPL editors for Zikula
00:09:14 <Sparks> #action Sparks to package the three GPL editors for Zikula -- Second Alarm
00:09:24 <Sparks> Stickster to blog to see if we can get some PHP/JS folks to help with out with some Zikula modules.
00:09:40 <Sparks> stickster_afk isn't here but I think this was done.
00:09:46 <danielsmw> It was; I saw it.
00:09:51 <Sparks> Cool
00:09:53 <Sparks> Sparks to put a note on the list about Shared Open-Source Style Guide
00:09:54 <itbegins> I am sort of working on this as well
00:10:04 <itbegins> from the Zikula community side
00:10:08 <Sparks> itbegins: cool
00:10:25 <itbegins> I've been contacted by stickster_afk, I just have to write an article on the Zikula site.  Likelihood of serious replies is limited, but i'll give it a go
00:10:42 <Sparks> Does anyone want to handle the Shared Open-Source Style Guide stuff?  I just haven't had time to read up on it all and write about it.
00:11:50 <Sparks> #action Sparks to put a note on the list about Shared Open-Source Style Guide
00:11:58 <Sparks> Sparks to create BZ component Deployment Guide
00:12:04 <Sparks> Yeah, I failed on this one too...
00:12:05 * rudi will take it but is time poor right now
00:12:26 <Sparks> rudi: The Open-Source guide?
00:12:38 <Sparks> rudi: or the BZ component
00:12:44 <rudi> Sparks -- the OS guide
00:13:01 <Sparks> #action rudi to put a note on the list about Shared Open-Source Style Guide
00:13:04 <Sparks> rudi: Thank you
00:13:12 <Sparks> I'll get on the BZ component tonight.
00:13:25 <Sparks> #action Sparks to create BZ component Deployment Guide --Second alarm
00:13:26 <quaid> Sparks: I'd like to help move the shared style guide stuff along, yeah
00:13:40 <Sparks> Excellent
00:14:04 <Sparks> quaid: ke4qqq was going to work on it but he's gotten real busy lately for known reasons...
00:14:18 <Sparks> and I think the more people that get on that project the better
00:14:42 <quaid> yeah, coordinate on list, sounds fine
00:14:47 <Sparks> cool
00:14:54 <Sparks> Sparks to write up CVE checking/validation procedures in the wiki
00:15:01 <Sparks> This is inprogress.
00:15:08 <Sparks> #action Sparks to write up CVE checking/validation procedures in the wiki --second alarm
00:15:32 <Sparks> Okay, that's all from last week.  Anyone have any other "old business"?
00:16:19 <Sparks> #topic Status on CMS (Zikula) <-- ke4qqq
00:16:32 <Sparks> Well, ke4qqq isn't here with us tonight...
00:16:57 <Sparks> but we had a meeting earlier today and got a few more items straight.
00:17:35 <Sparks> J5 joined us today and will be working on some of the javascript problems we are having
00:17:48 <Sparks> so hopefully all that will be squared away soon.
00:18:11 <Sparks> I got volunteered to rebuild the Zikula instance on PT15 so that will either happen later tonight or tomorrow.
00:18:24 <Sparks> Does anyone have anything questions or ideas?
00:19:07 <itbegins> Sparks, do you know what to install etc?
00:19:23 <Sparks> itbegins: I'll be installing all the packages we have in the repo.
00:19:39 <itbegins> Sparks, ok, then run install.php
00:19:45 <Sparks> Cool, thanks.
00:19:46 <itbegins> Sparks, you'll need a database ready
00:19:55 <Sparks> ya
00:20:00 <itbegins> in fact, it would be best if you didn't install from scratch and just pointed the new files to the old DB
00:20:12 <itbegins> due to the amount of setup work I did
00:20:17 <Sparks> I could do that, too.
00:20:19 <itbegins> though it can be replicated with a bit of work
00:20:32 <Sparks> I don't plan on wipeing that out.
00:20:32 <itbegins> if you want to do that, save /config/config.php from the old system
00:20:42 <itbegins> I assume it will be puppetized anyway
00:20:48 <Sparks> eventually, yes.
00:21:01 <Sparks> This is a preparation to puppetizing everything.
00:21:12 <itbegins> THere's also FASAuth (the FAS login module) and the theme
00:21:24 <itbegins> I sent the source to ke4qqq previously
00:21:34 <ricky> Is the FAS module in git somewhere or anything like that?
00:21:39 <Sparks> I don't think those have been packaged.
00:21:46 <Sparks> But we need to get those in the repo asap.
00:21:46 <ricky> We can get it in the fedora-infrastructure git repo if you'd like
00:21:56 <ricky> Ah, they'll be RPMs - that's fine too :-)
00:22:13 <Sparks> ricky: Yeah, everything will be RPMed for ease of use
00:22:25 <ricky> Cool, we like RPMs :-)
00:23:46 <Sparks> Okay, anything else?
00:24:05 <itbegins> That's it from my side
00:24:37 <Sparks> #topic Status on CC license rollout.\
00:24:46 <Sparks> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/License_changeover_schedule
00:25:12 <quaid> a short bit ago I updated one of the tasks as completed
00:25:28 <Sparks> Okay, I created the above schedule.  I'd appreciate feedback.
00:25:34 <itbegins> If there are no objects I will head off, haven't eaten yet...
00:25:41 <Sparks> rudi: Let's talk about your page you made.
00:25:49 * ianweller will work tomorrow on a draft announcement
00:26:25 <ianweller> #action ianweller to do something useful and write a draft announcement
00:26:28 <ianweller> ;)
00:26:36 <Sparks> ianweller: Thank you
00:26:54 <Sparks> rudi: So do we need to have an attribute statement?
00:27:26 <rudi> As I understand it, no we don't strictly need to.
00:27:38 <Sparks> Do we want an attribute statement?
00:27:48 <rudi> I'm in two minds about it.
00:28:32 <quaid> #link http://rlandmann.fedorapeople.org/license/
00:28:47 <rudi> It increases transparency about how to re-use the material
00:29:24 <rudi> But I can imagine that it would also discourage reuse
00:29:56 <Sparks> I don't like the idea of being extremely strict on saying how they have to do it.
00:30:23 <quaid> it "feels" restrictive to reusers?
00:31:04 <Sparks> "You must say exactly this in the type font and size and..."
00:31:27 <quaid> I'll note that if we are strict, it's a reason for not listing every single contributor to a doc - puts a big burden on remixers -- so then it makes more sense to credit "Fedora Docs" & "Fedora L10n"
00:31:28 <Sparks> I'd rather just say, you have to attribute it to us and let them figure out what works best for them.
00:31:54 * quaid thinks about it and thinks his argument goes the other way too
00:32:09 <rudi> Sparks -- CC doesn't allow you to be *that* strict
00:32:49 <Sparks> rudi: So what would be the point of an attribution statement?
00:33:17 <rudi> Like I said, to alert people about what their obligations actually are
00:33:31 <rudi> Transparently
00:34:02 <Sparks> So spell out what the license is telling them to do
00:34:14 <rudi> Pretty much
00:34:34 <Sparks> Okay, I'm good with that.
00:34:43 <Sparks> Anyone else have an opinion?
00:35:00 <rudi> There are only two specific extra burdens that the licence allows: Specify a specific name to credit, and specify that you must link back.
00:35:15 <rudi> You'll notice that I suggest we invoke the second of those
00:35:33 <quaid> ah, that avoids the long list of names?
00:35:41 <rudi> No.
00:35:48 <rudi> That's the first
00:36:06 <rudi> Which we could also choose
00:36:15 <quaid> oic, sorry, misparsed
00:36:18 <Sparks> Okay
00:36:21 <quaid> 'specific name', gotcha
00:36:40 <Sparks> So +1 for only linking back.
00:36:52 <quaid> just for ye ole debil's advocate sake
00:37:04 <quaid> why not specify "Fedora Docs Team" and "Fedora L10n Team"
00:37:05 <rudi> Yeah; so instead of crediting the actual creators of the doc, we could specify that the re-user or remixer just credits "The Fedora Documentation Project"
00:37:08 <quaid> and avoid tracking a list of names?
00:37:17 * ianweller has to eat, bbl
00:37:17 <quaid> or "The Fedora Project"
00:37:39 <rudi> indeed
00:37:49 <jjmcd> That list of names is important to some
00:37:53 * Sparks likes "The Fedora Project"
00:38:16 <Sparks> jjmcd: Yeah, which is found on the documents themselves... but that list can be pretty long.
00:38:32 <rudi> jjmcd -- yes, which is why I shied away from suggesting that option
00:38:36 <quaid> I don't think we should burden others with our long list of names, should we continue to choose to display it.
00:38:44 <jjmcd> Yeah it can, so we really are just talking about what it says on some repuser's doc?
00:38:59 <jjmcd> re-user grrrr
00:39:06 <rudi> jjmcd -- yes
00:39:40 <jjmcd> Ahh ... I like Fedora Project, but we get some good press for our docs, I wonder whether Fedora Docs Project doesn't leverage that
00:39:56 <quaid> jjmcd: well, we ARE docs for the FP
00:40:00 <rudi> jjmcd -- don't forget L10N
00:40:05 <quaid> exactly
00:40:10 <quaid> and Design
00:40:16 <quaid> and the Publican team for the cool look
00:40:17 <quaid> and etc.
00:40:56 <quaid> One of the problems I have with all this self-branding (My Name, My SubProject's Name) is that it distracts and fractions from the greater;
00:41:10 <quaid> even if one of my purposes in Fedora is to build my name
00:41:25 <quaid> everyone else has to rely upon the RPM loginfo
00:41:27 <Sparks> WE ARE FEDORA
00:41:30 <quaid> no one gets to call their package
00:41:35 <quaid> quaid-zikula-foo.rpm
00:41:47 <Sparks> no?
00:41:57 <quaid> how about this
00:41:58 <Sparks> Is that against the package naming rules?
00:42:01 <quaid> do rpm -qi $anypackage
00:42:06 <quaid> do you see the packagers name in there?
00:42:19 * radsy wanders off... services guide has been sent to lists fo review..
00:42:23 <quaid> why would Docs get to have a big splash with our name just because we get to control the printing press?
00:42:35 <quaid> shouldn't we put every packager's name in there that contributed to a package that we document?
00:43:00 * quaid quotes his daughter's, "It's not Fu-yair!"
00:43:21 <quaid> anyway, sorry, different debate
00:43:28 <quaid> but not a problem we should push on reusers
00:43:38 <quaid> so +1 to The Fedora Project from me
00:43:46 * quaid steps down carefully from his soap box
00:43:49 * Sparks calls for a vote
00:44:17 <Sparks> Require the re-user to attribute to "The Fedora Project" and link back
00:44:19 <Sparks> +1
00:44:29 <rudi> +1
00:44:40 <jjmcd> +1
00:44:40 <danielsmw> +1
00:44:52 <quaid> +1
00:45:32 <Sparks> #agreed Require the re-user to attribute to "The Fedora Project" and link back
00:45:40 <Sparks> Okay, anything else on the license?
00:46:05 <Sparks> #topic Shared open-source style guide <--ke4qqq
00:46:11 <rudi> Give me a few minutes and I'll have that revision in place; then, if we're happy with it, I'll run it past legal
00:46:23 <Sparks> Okay...  quaid and rudi will be helping ke4qqq with this.
00:46:27 <Sparks> Anything else?
00:46:30 <Sparks> rudi: Thanks
00:46:42 <Sparks> #link https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2009-June/msg00163.html
00:47:12 * Sparks moves on
00:47:19 <Sparks> #topic Outstanding BZ Tickets
00:47:42 <Sparks> Okay, I know people were working their tickets since last Wednesday.  Good job.
00:48:05 <Sparks> I spent about a half hour "gardening" the tickets this afternoon.
00:48:32 <Sparks> If you have tickets assigned to you please make sure you work these issues...
00:48:44 <Sparks> especially if they are from a user.
00:49:52 <Sparks> If the ticket takes a while to fix I'd like everyone to make note at least monthly to show you are still working the problem.
00:50:30 * Sparks notes some people got knocked off there.
00:50:44 <Sparks> Does anyone have any questions about the BZ tickets
00:50:46 <Sparks> ?
00:51:10 <quaid> anyone want mine?
00:51:25 <Sparks> quaid: No, I think you need yours.  I don't think you have enough to do.
00:51:39 <quaid> good for ya!
00:51:43 <Sparks> :)
00:52:22 <Sparks> #topic Draft Documentation on the wiki
00:52:39 <Sparks> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Draft_Documentation
00:52:56 <jjmcd> wheeeeee
00:53:03 <Sparks> And jjmcd's back!
00:53:18 <Sparks> jjmcd: You'll have to read the log to see what we assigned to you while you were out.
00:53:31 <Sparks> Okay... Draft Documentation
00:53:34 <jjmcd> did u get "504825, 228728 - should talk about tomorrow" before the netsplit?
00:53:46 <Sparks> no
00:54:02 <Sparks> after the meeting?
00:54:14 <jjmcd> tomorrow's 11AM
00:54:42 <Sparks> No, can we talk about them after tonight meeting?
00:54:58 <Sparks> or do we need to talk about them now?
00:55:36 <jjmcd> Well, one is probably a longer conversation, not sure I'm ready with all the questions, the other could drag on too
00:56:08 <jjmcd> The second is are we going to ressurect the guide -- accessibility
00:56:15 <Sparks> I thought 504825 would be fairly straight forward
00:56:19 <jjmcd> and if so, in what form/format
00:56:46 <jjmcd> Well, we never really did get to a complete answer
00:57:01 <Sparks> jjmcd: What the heck... You are not authorized to access bug #228728.
00:57:02 <buggbot> Bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=228728 is not accessible.
00:57:20 * Sparks dislikes buggbot.
00:57:50 * ianweller is confused at 228728.
00:57:56 <jjmcd> we said we would produce 3 formats, but we still never asked the question what does the rpm look like, how will it be presented installed, do we drop gnome or include kde, etc etc
00:58:11 <jjmcd> let me see if i fat-fingered it
00:59:21 <jjmcd> 228729 sri
00:59:49 * Sparks is now curious what 228728 is.
01:00:14 <Sparks> jjmcd: Dang... okay, I remember now
01:00:16 <jjmcd> prolly some super secret rhel thingie
01:00:23 <Sparks> prolly
01:00:55 <Sparks> jjmcd: Okay, so you want to wait until tomorrow's meeting for this?
01:01:24 <jjmcd> Yeah, I think it is a little related to the other, so lets talk about what shows on the iso, and ignore the docs.fp.o
01:01:33 <jjmcd> which we have covered sort of
01:01:35 <rudi> http://rlandmann.fedorapeople.org/license/ is updated
01:01:54 <jjmcd> does it work in internet exploder?
01:02:32 <jjmcd> I have no argument with that language
01:02:39 <Sparks> Don't know... I don't have IE anywhere.
01:02:45 <rudi> Probably not; but that's got nothing to do with the license
01:03:01 <jjmcd> yeah, I know.  Just pokin'
01:03:06 <rudi> :)
01:04:26 <Sparks> Okay
01:04:29 <Sparks> Draft Documentation
01:04:34 <Sparks> it's there...
01:04:49 <Sparks> Please look at it every so often and see if you can help something along.
01:05:05 <Sparks> #topic Guide needs?
01:05:15 <Sparks> Does anyone need anything for their Guide?
01:05:40 <Sparks> #topic New Guides
01:05:47 <Sparks> Anyone have any new guide ideas?
01:06:08 <jjmcd> yeah, but not until after F12
01:06:15 <Sparks> jjmcd: What you got?
01:06:34 <jjmcd> A guide to Fedora for radio amateurs
01:06:41 <Sparks> jjmcd: Count me in
01:06:45 <jjmcd> ;-)
01:06:59 <Sparks> Anyone else?
01:07:12 <Sparks> #topic All other business
01:07:18 <Sparks> Does anyone have anything else?
01:07:33 * Sparks notes stickster arriving right at the end of the meeting
01:07:55 <jjmcd> well, these manager types
01:08:04 <Sparks> ya.. tell me about it
01:08:04 <jjmcd> you know how THEY are
01:08:23 <Sparks> ANYONE?  ANYTHING?
01:08:39 <jjmcd> is there any useful docs for zikula?
01:08:56 <Sparks> I don't know
01:09:35 <jjmcd> Maybe I'll just rely on infra and not stress over it
01:09:47 <Sparks> #action jjmcd to do recon on Zikula for useful docs
01:10:07 <jjmcd> zikula.org has lots, but nothing useful
01:10:41 <Sparks> Anything else?
01:11:04 <Sparks> 5
01:11:06 <Sparks> 4
01:11:09 <Sparks> 3
01:11:11 <Sparks> 2
01:11:13 <Sparks> 1
01:11:26 <Sparks> Thanks everyone for coming!
01:11:29 <Sparks> #endmeeting