00:03:02 #startmeeting Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings 00:03:02 Meeting started Thu Sep 10 00:03:02 2009 UTC. The chair is jjmcd. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 00:03:02 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 00:03:11 two minutes - he's not gonna show 00:03:23 #topic Roll Call 00:03:28 * danielsmw 00:03:29 * jjmcd is here 00:03:31 * bcotton is here 00:03:34 * rudi is here 00:03:57 * jjmcd needs more windows to do this 00:04:07 #topic Last week's action items 00:04:29 danielsmw to package an editor for Scribite - where are we? 00:04:46 jjmcd: I surveyed what would work with scribite and what had what features and such 00:04:52 And I've decided on TinyMCE 00:04:58 * perspectival is here 00:05:05 the problem I've run into is the lack of guidelines on javascript library packaging 00:05:17 And especially js built with ant 00:05:26 (which I didn't actually know was possible, who knew). 00:05:48 As a new packager, I don't think I can handle that sort of task by myself. 00:05:55 It's not a time thing, just a knowledge thing. 00:06:07 Well, somebody has to be able to help with js, but ant? You may be on your own 00:06:11 So I can still do it, but I'd really appreciate if someone would be willing to sit down iwth me one day and do it. 00:06:28 There are actually pretty okay ant guidelines under Packaging/Java 00:06:36 It's the mixture of the two that I don't understand. 00:06:55 Oh, OK. What about whoever wrote those guidelines? 00:07:21 I suppose I could ask them. The JS guidelines are still in draft, though. I'm not sure that there really even are guidelines, officially. 00:07:32 Personally, it doesn't make sense to package javascript libraries. 00:07:38 Perhaps having the background of writing the guidelines they will have the perspective to be able to guide you 00:07:44 But I don't understand the going ons of Zikula 00:07:46 and such. 00:07:57 That's probably at least a start, you're right. 00:08:08 Well, Zikula isn't sooo different from other web apps 00:08:10 Okay, then I'll do that this week and hopefully get somewhere by the weekend. 00:08:24 OK, I'll try to be around to offer what little I can 00:08:30 Thanks, jjmcd 00:08:32 Maybe mostly moral support 00:08:36 :-) 00:08:57 The other items are Sparks, quaid and ianweller, none of whom are here 00:09:22 ANything else on action items? 00:09:52 #topic Release notes format changes 00:10:01 OK, here I need some help 00:10:22 I can offer moral support. :-) 00:10:25 We talked about having all changes in tables, and only a little in the way of prose 00:10:48 But there are a lot of apps that cross beats, and not all apps are covered by beats 00:11:11 And oh yeah, Alpha was really lame, only about 20% of packages, so we don't really know what we have 00:11:30 I am proposing to move the tables to the end, and organize them by rpm_group 00:11:50 With an alphabetical index, people can find anything fairly easily 00:12:13 Trouble is, it is big, but we don't really know for sure how big 00:12:31 Any thoughts on that approach? 00:12:46 * danielsmw likes alphabetical indexes. 00:13:13 Does it matter if it's too big, really? 00:13:18 besides losing some style points? 00:13:42 that might be a dumb question, I'm not familiar with RN so much 00:13:43 I don't think so. We don't add a lot to translate 00:13:48 okay. 00:14:11 The other intrinsic problem is that the rpm groups don't always make much sense 00:14:51 rudi, you got that right, but if I turn my head sideways, I can generally see how someone could imagine they belong the way they are 00:14:57 that's true. lots of things belong in more than one category in reality, so the groups are occasionally confusing. 00:15:01 Which leads me to believe that no grouping is perfect 00:15:14 Indeed 00:15:27 Example tables/index in http://jjmcd.fedorapeople.org/Download/f12alpha 00:15:40 Although grouping it my rpm may encourage packagers to more carefully consider the groups they use. 00:15:53 I was kind of thinking that, too 00:16:11 With the index you can find what you are looking for 00:16:13 Yeah -- it will be good if we can somehow apply some pressure in that direction 00:16:14 and not create new groups 00:16:29 or sub groups 00:16:37 Some are just stupid, like Applications/Games vs games 00:16:48 Why do you need both, pick one or the other 00:17:02 from memory, the networking one was a bit crazy too 00:17:46 The list on fedorapeople is against rawhide. I expect F12 will be smaller than that, but we don't have a feel for how much smaller because alpha was so limited 00:18:23 Yes, there are amateur radio apps in networking that have nothing to do with networking 00:19:02 Also, there are some beats with a few minor changes, I think we need to drop them rather than adding fluff 00:20:15 And I think we need to move embedded development out of development to the specialized group. It really goes with FEL 00:20:34 even tho it has the word development. It doesn't fit with the rest 00:21:20 rudi, are you pretty much there on installer? 00:21:41 Well, I haven't got anything new :) 00:22:08 I think I may have put some placeholders in there but not turned it into real prose 00:22:21 I'll take another look 00:22:35 I did go through the feature pages and tried to spatter stuff through the beats 00:23:13 We were supposed to have the 'big' pots out yesterday 00:24:27 So I intend to do what I can tomorrow and Saturday and then try to make pots saturday or sunday. The beats are nowhere near where I'd like, but L10N is waiting on us 00:25:02 I'll pitch in to help with that 00:25:11 I appreciate that rudi 00:25:19 I'll be out of town Friday 00:25:23 NP 00:25:45 But except for a few interruptions, I'll be around otherwise 00:26:07 The good news is we don't have to do all that po madness from 11 so it should be a little easier 00:26:23 although I should check with glezos on that 00:26:45 Yeah -- check. I'm assuming that we *will* have to do the po madness 00:26:45 #action jjmcd to check with glezos on po's 00:27:21 OK, anything else on release notes? 00:28:06 I'm surprised noriko didn't come over 00:28:30 We have no ke4qqq for Zikula so .... 00:28:45 #topic Status on CC license rollout 00:28:51 ANything new to report? 00:29:47 hearing nothing 00:29:58 #topic Guide needs? 00:30:08 I haz guide needs 00:30:19 Ahhhh, whatcha got? 00:30:26 I know -- I'm the blocker there 00:30:33 rudi: :-) 00:30:39 a little, rudi, but I can still write content 00:30:46 Yeppa 00:31:04 rudi: Did I send you an email about what sections I wanted to cover for F11? 00:31:10 I think I wrote it and may not have sent it 00:31:18 doesn't matter, anyway, the point is 00:31:29 I saw a link in IRC 00:31:37 okay, good 00:31:41 But you were offline by the time I read it -- I bookmarked it 00:31:52 do you still have the link by chance? 00:32:16 never mind, I got it 00:32:19 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Danielsmw/Desktop_Guide_tasks 00:32:41 anyway, my proposal is just to work up through the first 5 chapters for F12 release. 00:32:48 There is a lot of detail in the desktop beat that I wonder whether it belongs in the desktop guide 00:33:02 jjmcd: I will take a look and see if perhaps it does 00:33:07 thanks 00:33:28 anyway, if anyone has any comment on what I've chosen to be ready for F12, now's your chance I suppose. 00:34:27 Okay, well, I'll put something out to the list, but that's all I have to say. 00:35:03 except, rudi: I really don't want to pressure you at all, because it isn't a big deal, but do you have an estimate on when you'll be ready? 00:35:09 with the Xml skeleton? 00:35:30 Looks to me like a good triage 00:35:32 Still "RSN" -- next couple of days 00:35:39 okay, that's fine. 00:35:42 (although I know I said that two days ago!!) :) 00:35:47 :) 00:36:00 * danielsmw is done with his guide needs. 00:36:14 OK, anything else on guide? 00:36:31 s/?/s? 00:36:42 ?? 00:37:09 <---- old PDP guy 00:37:14 * bcotton needs to actually work on the RPM guide, but doesnt require any external assistance at the moment (except maybe a cattle prod) 00:37:37 jjmcd: yeah, i always get confused when regexs aren't closed on the end 00:37:47 hehe - I think we all have that "the hurrier I go the behinder I get" syndrome 00:38:10 danielsmw, I'm pretty ancient, esp. as this business is concerned. 00:38:35 By the way, today is Dennis Ritchie's birthday, seems to me there should have been a lot more press about it 00:38:57 #topic All other business 00:39:08 Anything else for the good of the order? 00:39:40 Anyone else here able to sponsor new package maintainers? 00:39:40 5 00:39:45 (I think ianweller can) 00:40:00 I need one, I'll have to ask ianweller. 00:40:09 lets all gang up on the missing ianweller 00:40:12 lolz 00:40:43 We need to get some new packagers sponsored who are going to look after Publican dependencies 00:41:03 Yes, I need to get my badge as well 00:41:04 That's a current blocker for Publican 1.0 and the new Fedora brand package for 0.44 00:41:43 rudi, how can we find out about that sort of thing? 00:42:12 I raise it in a meeting? :) 00:42:40 Hey - I just got an email from mister K&R himself! 00:42:45 I suspected as much 00:43:06 It would be nice to be able to identify those things before they become painful 00:43:18 It only *just* became a blocker 00:43:37 K 00:43:40 (within the last couple of days) 00:44:26 But I didn't want to rush the sponsorship process either 00:44:33 It's important that we do things right. 00:45:04 But yeah, it's been a few days without any activity yet, so now I'm making noise :) 00:45:23 Yes, I agree. Seems like there are things we could predict, though. After all, it isn't like we don't have computers and stuff. 00:45:58 OK, anything else? 00:46:21 5 00:46:30 4 00:46:40 3 00:46:50 2 00:47:00 1 00:47:09 #endmeeting