16:30:00 <nirik> #startmeeting IRC Support SIG
16:30:00 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Oct 15 16:30:00 2009 UTC.  The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:30:00 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:30:06 <nirik> #topic Init process
16:30:42 * thomasj 
16:30:47 * nb 
16:30:57 * zcat 
16:31:09 * nirik will wait a few for folks to wander in.
16:31:19 <sheek-luch2> Hi, I just join
16:31:26 <sheek-luch2> joined
16:31:30 <nirik> welcome sheek-luch2.
16:31:59 <sheek-luch2> Hey nirik, still waiting for other folks to join
16:32:15 <nirik> yes. Will wait a few minutes more...
16:32:33 * nb is new to irc-support sig also
16:32:51 <nirik> we don't have much on the docket today anyhow. ;)
16:33:29 <sheek-luch2> I got a lot to say but I don't want to be the only one saying it..
16:33:50 <nirik> sheek-luch2: wait for the Open floor at the end of the meeting? :)
16:33:59 <nirik> ok, I guess we can go ahead and start in.
16:34:04 <nirik> #topic weekly stats
16:34:14 <nirik> As usual our stats are at http://theglaserfamily.org/ircstats/fedora-weekly.html
16:34:24 <nirik> a pretty normal week it seems like.
16:34:52 <nirik> The pulse link continues to be popular.
16:35:09 <thomasj> No surprise :)
16:35:28 <nirik> anything anyone wants to bring up about stats? Or shall we move along?
16:35:45 <Khaytsus> I'd like to formally request that fenrus sleep sometime.  That's all.
16:35:51 <nirik> ha.
16:36:21 <nb> #link http://theglaserfamily.org/ircstats/fedora-weekly.html
16:36:37 <nirik> #topic Beta coming up
16:36:37 <sheek-luch2> I would like to start with, I have been Fedora IRC for about a month now, I am very new to IRC and have been getting to learn IRC (IRC commands) and still learning
16:37:05 <nirik> sheek-luch2: excellent. Keep hanging around and helping and learning. It's a fun time. ;)
16:37:14 <nirik> ok, so F12 beta is coming up next week.
16:37:32 <nirik> We need to remember to point people with rawhide/beta to #fedora-qa unless it's an easy question we know off hand.
16:37:43 <sheek-luch2> nirik: Thanks..
16:37:57 <nirik> also, many people are going to start asking if they can install f12beta and upgrade to f12 final, so we should brush off that linke.
16:38:03 <nirik> nirik: See https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Upgrading_from_pre-release_to_final and let us know if you have any further questions.
16:38:28 <sheek-luch2> I notice that people have bad attitudes with people who are trying to learn...
16:38:44 <nirik> it's already updated for 12, but if anyone sees anything else we need to modify there, please do so.
16:38:48 <sheek-luch2> When I started, yes of course I ask unrelated/stupid questions...
16:38:55 <thomasj> sheek-luch2, as said, wait for open floor?
16:39:15 <nirik> anything else for beta?
16:39:21 <sheek-luch2> thomasj: Ok, Like I siad first time here...I will wiat
16:39:28 <sheek-luch2> wait*
16:39:29 <thomasj> i see
16:39:58 <zcat> (the link is dynamic for release numbers thanks to the wikimagic)
16:40:12 <nirik> yep.
16:40:30 <Khaytsus> We might want to update the #fedora topic to touch on F12 beta
16:40:30 <nirik> it still points to fedora 11 faq. Wonder if mether is going to do one for f12?
16:40:49 <nirik> yeah, once it's out.
16:41:00 <Khaytsus> Yeah, that's true.
16:41:06 <nirik> one of you early risers can do that tuesday morning. ;)
16:41:34 <nirik> ok, if nothing else on beta, moving on.
16:42:14 <nirik> #topic Open Floor
16:42:30 <sheek-luch2> F12, I have tried the Alpha version and it worked out of the box except for Xorg which had irractice behavior...
16:42:48 <nirik> sheek-luch2: open floor now. ;) Yeah, don't let people get you down... just remain calm and take a break if you find people are being bothersome.
16:43:09 <thomasj> It depends a lot on the own behavior
16:43:52 * nb wonders how bad of an idea it would be for him to upgrade to rawhide now
16:43:54 <nirik> sheek-luch2: yeah, alpha was a long time ago in development time... hopefully beta will fix the X behavior you were seeing.
16:44:19 <nirik> nb: if you are able/willing to work thru the issues, it shouldn't be too bad.
16:44:23 <sheek-luch2> Getting angry to me is a waste of time and doesn't explain how you really feel becuase you are too angy...And at times being angry get's the best of me...
16:44:29 <nb> nirik, have there been many lately?
16:44:34 <Khaytsus> nb: Probably best to wait until Beta, but it should be settling down by now.
16:44:37 * nb 's server works fine on rawhide now
16:44:44 <nb> but i havent upgraded my desktop or laptop
16:45:10 <sheek-luch2> I feel bad for people who are in the same circumstance as me...And people who claim that they know it all...Refuse to lend a bone
16:45:47 <nirik> nb: shouldn't matter to much waiting, as we are frozen for beta anyhow right now.
16:45:50 <Southern_Gentlem> ok sheek-luch2  not all of us claim to know it all and i the ones that do claim that dont last very long in #fedora
16:46:03 <nb> nirik, yeah thats what i figured, what is in there now is pretty much beta
16:46:05 <nirik> sheek-luch2: can you give an example, (with any nicks removed from it) of what you are talking about?
16:46:10 <nb> with the exception of stuff getting tagged
16:46:41 <Southern_Gentlem> sheek-luch2, and at times people demand help which of course turns any of us from helping
16:47:02 <zcat> sheek-luch2, are you talking about the webmin thing? that was offtopic
16:47:13 <sheek-luch2> zcat: No
16:47:18 <Khaytsus> Some questions can be answered based on the question, but often needs additional information.
16:47:32 <Southern_Gentlem> or that we dont spoonfeed
16:47:35 <sheek-luch2> zcat: I'm talking in general with expierence of Fedora
16:47:49 <sheek-luch2> I mean Fedora channel
16:48:22 <nirik> sheek-luch2: we should all try and keep professional. No place for anger. If you get mad, step away and take a break and relax for a bit.
16:48:23 <thomasj> sheek-luch2, to demand is most of the times a bad idea.
16:49:53 <sheek-luch2> nirik: I want to reassure you that I am fine and this is how I speak and I am not speaking out of anger but out of frustation
16:50:29 <nirik> sheek-luch2: sorry to hear it. :( Can you propose a solution to what you are seeing? or provide an example we can learn from?
16:50:43 * nirik notes that http://freenode.net/channel_guidelines.shtml is a very good read.
16:51:36 <nirik> everyone who spends time helping out in #fedora should read that... in particular the catalyst and avoid support burnout sections.
16:52:30 <sheek-luch2> nirik: For example, let's say, "I want to remove the gui when it's booting"... Most people won't anwser that question or would say, "Google that"
16:52:31 <nirik> sheek-luch2: in any case, feedback is very welcome. Thanks for bringing it up...
16:52:54 <nirik> I would answer that probibly with:
16:52:57 <nirik> sheek-luch2: take a look at http://fedorasolved.org/post-install-solutions/runlevel/ and let us know if you get stuck or have specific questions on a step.
16:53:40 <sheek-luch2> nirik: That is a very goood answer....But they don't say that...
16:54:09 <nirik> sheek-luch2: then you could provide the above answer. ;) Everyone is welcome to help with good info.
16:54:10 <sheek-luch2> sheek-luch2: pf. you're wasting your time
16:54:27 <sheek-luch2> ^^, when I spend time helping
16:54:58 <sheek-luch2> I hope your grasping what I am saying..
16:55:00 <nirik> don't get discouraged by isolated comments... just learn from them and move on. IMHO
16:55:25 <nirik> if someone provides a better answer, learn that info for next time...
16:56:05 <sheek-luch2> nirik: How can I help or you guys can help to spread the message to other users in the channel...
16:56:47 <thomasj> The message is already spread out.
16:56:48 <nirik> sheek-luch2: if you run into a problem with a specific user, feel free to bring it to the attention of #fedora-ops...
16:57:00 <sheek-luch2> nirik: I want this to be a community of Users who help others....Like OpenSource software is trying achive...
16:57:07 <nirik> as do we.
16:57:21 <nirik> sheek-luch2: note that there are 500+ users in the channel. We don't control everyone.
16:57:31 <sheek-luch2> nirik: No specific user, it seems like most users..
16:57:32 <nirik> nor would we want to.
16:57:57 <nirik> well, feel free to let me know next time you see it and we can see what we can do about it?
16:58:27 <Khaytsus> sheek-luch2: If someone else seems to know the problem, or might be more apt to resolve it, don't get upset if someone else steps in.
16:58:30 <sheek-luch2> nirik: ok
16:59:13 <sheek-luch2> Khaytsus: I don't mind if someone steps in to help..For me.. it's I can't resolve 'Your issue' mabye Khaytsus can..
16:59:53 <nirik> yeah, cooperation is good. Or when someone has to step away for a while, someone else can take over.
17:00:22 <nirik> sheek-luch2: thanks for bringing this up. Hopefully we can improve based on it.
17:00:29 <nirik> Anyone have anything else for Open Floor?
17:00:30 <sheek-luch2> Khaytsus: It doesn't bother me...It's more of the poeple who feel they have nowhere else to turn...At a last ditch effort come to #fedora for help..
17:00:30 <Khaytsus> sheek-luch2: Okay, because some people don't know when to duck out and get upset.  :)
17:00:50 <Khaytsus> sheek-luch2: I wouldn't say #fedora should be "last ditch" but we'd hope most users have at least googled first.
17:02:17 <sheek-luch2> Khaytsus: I remember when I first started using Linux and had no idea of what I was doing.. I know how that felt...At the time I didn't know how to use Google as Tool properly...
17:03:24 <sheek-luch2> Khaytsus: What I should be searching for..What terms I should give Google...Or I didn't know what was the main issue of the problem I was trying to asses
17:03:39 <Khaytsus> sheek-luch2: One way to also think is that if you *know* the answer or a reference to a good answer, feel free.  If you're just guessing, make sure that it's clear you're just guessing or trying to diagnose.
17:04:14 <Khaytsus> sheek-luch2: I often find that "fedora+term" gives me a good hit rate on most common problems that immediately come to mind as a "should have googled first" issue.
17:04:38 <Khaytsus> But that's not really something to clog this channel with
17:04:52 <sheek-luch2> Khaytsus: Yeah, a lot people in #fedora-social has made that very clear and a few occassions in #fedora...
17:05:12 <sheek-luch2> Khaytsus: I don't want to be a 'ME' problem
17:05:56 <sheek-luch2> Khaytsus: I made a good point last night and another user said "sheek-luch2, you made a good point"
17:06:07 <sheek-luch2> I'm paraphrasing
17:06:25 <sheek-luch2> I see how that user was left out...
17:06:52 <Khaytsus> Given it's past the hour, probably best this move to #fedora-social
17:07:15 <nirik> yeah, any other topics for open floor? if not, I'll close out the meeting here soon...
17:07:37 <Khaytsus> I always bring this up around release time, but here goes..
17:07:41 <Khaytsus> I think we should scrub Unity docs
17:07:54 <nirik> scrub?
17:08:03 <Khaytsus> Make sure they are still valid, update those which need updating, etc
17:08:23 <nirik> sounds like a good plan. Go ahead. ;)
17:08:32 <Khaytsus> Add any new issues and remove old issues, like example install guides
17:08:35 <Khaytsus> I'll be reviewing mine
17:09:01 <nirik> cool.
17:09:03 <sheek-luch2> sorry?? I understand what this meeting is about...!:)
17:09:32 <nirik> Khaytsus: is there any mailing list or the like you could mail to get all the fedora unity docs maintainers?
17:10:08 <nirik> sheek-luch2: this is the IRC Support SIG. We work to improve support for Fedora. Did you have more on your topic? I didn't really see where you were going there at the end.
17:10:59 <sheek-luch2> nirik: I don't know how this meetting will last and I can't think of anything right now...But I am sure I will come up with something..
17:11:07 <sheek-luch2> how long this*
17:11:35 <nirik> sheek-luch2: well, it should end soon. If you have some concrete idea or proposal, feel free to bring it up. Or do so next week (this is a weekly meeting)
17:12:44 <nirik> Khaytsus: if you can ping other maintainers to check that would be great.
17:12:46 <sheek-luch2> For me Fedora 11 is great, my only issues is with new Releases...Unstable until a few months in...
17:13:12 <nirik> sheek-luch2: make sure you report bugs on what you find... will help things get fixed up faster. ;)
17:13:12 <thomasj> Well, my last words for this meeting: To be able to help others, you need some clue.
17:13:19 * nirik will end the meeting in a minute.
17:13:24 <sheek-luch2> nirik: Every thursday around this time
17:13:50 <nirik> sheek-luch2: yes, same time same channel
17:14:01 <nirik> Thanks for coming everyone!
17:14:09 <nirik> #endmeeting