17:00:33 #startmeeting FESCo meeting 20091023 17:00:33 Meeting started Fri Oct 23 17:00:33 2009 UTC. The chair is jds2001. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 17:00:33 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 17:00:43 * jds2001 is at a Fedora Talk FAD ATM 17:00:47 #chair dgilmore dwmw2 notting nirik sharkcz jds2001 j-rod skvidal Kevin_Kofler 17:00:47 Current chairs: Kevin_Kofler dgilmore dwmw2 j-rod jds2001 nirik notting sharkcz skvidal 17:01:01 * j-rod here on time for once 17:01:05 * sharkcz is here 17:01:26 Present. 17:01:43 * notting is here 17:03:00 alrighty, lets get started 17:03:23 #topic Documentation 17:03:32 .fesco 261 17:03:33 jds2001: #261 (Followup on documenting FESCo decisions on wiki) - FESCo - Trac - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/261 17:03:46 this is the only item that I had for today 17:04:14 seems sane to me, for a decision requirng documentation, we all agree on it 17:04:31 Why does this need a policy at all? It's just common sense that our stuff should be documented. 17:04:45 because we have utterly failed at it. 17:05:05 not that it needs to be a policy per se, more of a SOP 17:05:11 that is written down. 17:05:13 As for the precise policy described, there are some things which aren't quite right, for example we aren't supposed to edit Packaging:* (and AFAIK the ACLs won't even allow it). 17:05:24 correct. 17:06:04 the proposla that I was reading is "documetnation is good, FESCo should figure out some way that works for them, here's an idea" 17:06:37 On the other hand, as we're the ones having the final word on packaging guideline changes, maybe it'd also make sense to let us (FESCo) edit the relevant wiki pages? 17:07:03 I wouldn't really want that responsibiltiy 17:07:10 The current process is that FPC passes a guideline, we approve it, then it has to go back to FPC for the wiki edit. 17:07:28 there's a lot of outher decisions that don't belong in Packaging: that are not documented. 17:07:59 well, add step 0 in there, we say "this is a good thing to do" 17:08:16 for example, the maven cvs branching thing. 17:08:31 * dgilmore is here 17:09:33 so i dont think there is any "ppolicy" decision to be made here. 17:09:49 but rather, here's a common sense proposal, us it! 17:09:54 s/us/use 17:11:28 so how's this: when a policy decision is made not applicable to FPC, then the meeting chair will change the keyword of the ticket from "meeting" to "writeup", and assign it to a specific person 17:11:52 at the next meeting, all such tickets will be poked for status. 17:12:18 That makes sense. 17:12:22 So +1 from me. 17:12:44 yep, sounds good. +1 17:13:02 +1 from me :) 17:13:04 * sharkcz agrees +1 17:13:05 +1 17:13:17 #agreed when a policy decision is made not applicable to FPC, then the meeting chair will change the keyword of the ticket from "meeting" to "writeup", and assign it to a specific person 17:13:32 #topic open floor 17:13:38 anything else? 17:14:25 * jds2001 ends the meeting in 30 17:14:32 there's a beta. it has blocker bugs. fesco encourages people to fix them. 17:14:40 I have one more thing... 17:14:58 #info there's a beta. it has blocker bugs. fesco encourages people to fix them. 17:15:15 The Design Team apparently wants to do some artwork changes now, post beta, and with the release quite imminent. 17:15:44 Should they be allowed to do this? If not, who's responsible for saying "no"? Us? Rel-eng? 17:15:48 yeah, stickster briefed me on that (I'm here with him) 17:15:50 on web or in release? 17:15:59 in release 17:15:59 in release 17:15:59 the background 17:16:12 * dgilmore is +1 to above 17:16:20 * jds2001 doesn't see a huge problem, not like wallpaper has bugs :D 17:16:32 This may require us to change the KDE themes to fit with the changed wallpapers. 17:16:45 And at least the KDM theme is quite susceptible to bugs. 17:16:52 the new wallpapers are available... 17:16:56 But then again, just swapping out the wallpapers should be fairly safe. 17:17:27 is there a link to the new wallpapers? 17:17:36 What really annoys me is the Design Team's track record of not following schedules. 17:17:43 drago01: design-team list, 'F12 Final wallpaper' thread 17:17:49 notting: thx 17:18:20 I normally favor a flexible approach when it comes to freezes, but when late delivery is systematic, at some point it really gets old. 17:20:20 yeah, I agree 17:20:22 * skvidal apologizes for not being around - I completely spaced on the meeting 17:21:24 And things like the wallpapers need to get delivered before the last moment because at least KDM and KSplash themes (possibly also other stuff in other desktops), and Plymouth themes if they're being made (which hasn't been done for each release, probably also because of timing) are based on them. 17:21:34 so what's the action item here? 17:21:53 Good question... 17:22:15 The thing is, I don't know how to proceed, I'm just unhappy with the state of affairs, but I'm not sure what the best resolution is. 17:22:45 I think we definitely need to get the message out that artwork will need to be delivered earlier for F13. 17:22:59 But I don't know how to handle the current F12 situation. 17:23:04 well, moving the naming earlier was supposed ot help with that. 17:23:32 Not if you restart from scratch twice. 17:23:33 but it clearly didn't 17:23:37 true 17:23:52 They delivered something for Alpha, then something different for Beta and now they want to do a third thing for the release. 17:25:52 so for the current situation, what would a satisfactory resolution be? 17:26:04 no artwork! 17:26:09 LOL 17:26:11 go back to the X stipple background 17:26:26 I want to actually get motion sickness on certain big crt monitors 17:26:32 :) 17:26:35 hehe 17:26:58 have they been scolded for late delivery during prior releases? 17:27:02 check with docs/marketing - when do the screenshots and tour freeze? 17:27:39 if so, then enough is enough already, say no, and maybe they'll figure it out for next release 17:28:09 What I know is that jreznik, who's been working on the KDE artwork, has complained about this thing and suggested we use upstream KDE artwork for F13 because our Design Team can't be worked with. 17:28:33 that would be utter fail. 17:28:39 if not, and if the new art doesn't cause any earth-shattering shift reqs in theming, let it in, but warn them if they don't have their shit together sooner in the future, they're going to get rejected 17:28:40 should we just ask the person "in charge" of the design team to explain? 17:28:47 mizmo: ping 17:28:49 i think that would be mizmo 17:29:35 dude i replied to his message on design-team 17:29:50 i dont see how we're hard to work with 17:29:55 we had drafts of stuff out for the alpha 17:30:00 mizmo: that's not the question 17:30:04 we're continuously trying to improve the artwork 17:30:10 is that not allowed? 17:30:19 is it expected to stay the same from alpha on? 17:30:46 because not too long ago, you didnt see any new artwork until the final. then the RC. then the beta. now you're getting it in the alpha, the earliest yet 17:30:59 why? because we want to get feedback on it and make improvements based on the feedback 17:31:12 if we're not allowed to make improvements than i do not see the point in bothering to get it in so early 17:31:36 there is a clear progression of improvement from release to release in how early the design team releases omcment. 17:31:41 ultimately, the art goes in packages 17:31:43 It's supposed to get in early because it's the feature freeze and artwork is a feature too. 17:31:50 so i am very deeply hurt for being criticized on being hard to work with 17:31:53 And for at least 2 more reasons: 17:31:57 Kevin_Kofler: never has been before. 17:31:58 im sorry Kevin_Kofler but artwork isn't code. it's not a 'feature' 17:32:06 Feature freeze means "testable" 17:32:11 * it shows up on screenshots. Often screenshots of prereleases are used in articles, documentation etc. 17:32:12 and it's really highly visible 17:32:12 if the art is 'testable' then it got in 17:32:20 mizmo: as a non-artist, what i see is a progression from "mosaic" (alpha) to "mosaic + fog/rain (beta)" to "all blur/rain (proposed)". so it's a progression/refining, but it now doesn't seem to resemble what we had earlier. (not claiming it is better or worse) 17:32:27 * the backgrounds are required to build KDM, KSplash and Plymouth themes 17:32:32 art can be "bugfixed" after feature freeze, just like any other feature 17:32:32 And possibly more stuff. 17:32:44 notting: in any artistic process if you look at first sketch to final it's gonna look different. it has to be viewed as a progression. 17:33:07 We're always struggling with KDM and KSplash and AFAIK the Plymouth folks stopped trying to match our wallpapers after Solar due to scheduling. 17:33:08 mizmo: yes. but if you don't see any of the intermediates now, you don't really see the relation at all 17:33:47 no 17:33:56 plymouth didn't stop because of scheduling 17:34:12 there was a thread on the art list where mlanglie proposed we stick with one theme 17:34:15 and refine it over time 17:34:21 so that's what we're doing 17:34:28 notting: i know youre saying but im not sure how it's relevant. 17:34:57 halfline: per release 17:35:34 mizmo: i think that halfline was talking about the plymouth art 17:35:44 or am i totally wrong? 17:35:45 oh okay 17:35:48 mizmo: it's relevant *if* someone else is trying to do other design to match the wallpaper theme, in that they may be keying off some aspect of the wallpaper that is refined away. i don't know that that's the case here. 17:35:48 yes, plymouth theme specifically 17:35:51 jds2001: you're right 17:35:55 i can find the thread if people are interested 17:36:28 notting: the wallpapers still have a very strong 'bokeh' design element. if not all, most of the splashes already done have bokeh and would match. so only the wallpaper really needs to change for us to have a matching set. 17:36:29 I think updated art should more or less follow updated package rules after freeze -- needs justification and rel-eng approval to get tagged into the release 17:36:32 notting: im not aware of anyone doing "derivative designs" 17:37:20 mizmo: from a practical standpoint, there's the freeze dates for the docs and wiki tours that need to be considered. i'm still trying to dig up those dates. 17:37:51 Well, what jreznik told me in F11 timeframe is that he talked to the guy who did the Plymouth Solar theme and that guy said he couldn't do a Leonidas theme because the wallpapers weren't ready in time (they were ready when he was on vacation and the deep freeze was right after that). 17:38:05 But this is third-hand information, so take it with a grain of salt. 17:38:05 notting: honestly i really would not like to have to be changing art this late in the game it is true. but after it was recently pointed out to me that the wallpaper looks like a dark bathroom floor, that's all i see when i look at it and im ashamed of it 17:38:50 mizmo: aha, all hail polecat's collection of taskjuggler. 17:39:00 33. Update Fedora tour page Wed 2009-10-28 Wed 2009-11-04 17:39:20 so that's not yet started 17:39:22 jds2001: KDE SIG is doing derivative designs. 17:39:23 mizmo: does it make any difference if some of us really like the current wallpaper in the beta? 17:39:23 Kevin_Kofler: i'm pretty sure charlie did a leonidas theme but we never landed it 17:39:28 That's what KSplash themes and KDM themes are. 17:39:39 jds2001: correct, but i think that would need to be a hard freeze point 17:39:41 it was some theme with greek elements to it 17:39:51 * Oxf13 is one of those that really likes the beta wallpaper 17:39:52 Kevin_Kofler: i thought that you just took the artwork as is 17:39:54 Kevin_Kofler: sorry 17:40:11 We take the wallpaper as is, but then we need to put matching design elements on top of it. 17:40:27 right, the design elemtns havent changed. 17:40:37 If the wallpaper changes colors, if they put some objects right under a translucent dialog or several other possible changes, that can all make them look ugly. 17:40:38 Oxf13: my first thought was either tron or really cool 3d qbert :-) 17:40:40 skvidal: art is hard, let's go shopping 17:41:13 Kevin_Kofler: the wallpaper has changed colors because apparently i was able to go months before anyone pointed out that my artwork was coming out purple and not blue. i got a new laptop and its color profile was way off until i got it fixed yesterday 17:41:36 mizmo: I guess if you liked it before when it was released - don't let a few folks derisive comments destroy your perspective 17:42:02 * jds2001 thinks that the beta wallpaper is hot too. 17:42:16 mizmo: I see, but this does mean we do have to change the KDM theme's colors to match the color changes. 17:42:17 a bathroom floor never entered into my mind :) 17:42:25 skvidal: they're right though. see the thing about artwork is it's a form of commnunication. you send a message with it. no communicatoin is perfect. but i know the message i intended with the artwork, and it's not coming across. 17:42:35 Otherwise the colors will look mismatched and possibly ugly. 17:42:43 So this is an example of how wallpaper changes can affect the KDE themes. 17:42:44 17:42:46 Kevin_Kofler: maybe you should have pointed out that it was purple to me when you first got it. (not that anyone else bothered to) 17:43:10 I suppose nobody knew it was supposed to be blue. ;-) 17:43:16 I think this is like any other development process - it won't entirely be perfect and it can be patched in updates as you go, provided it "works" at all 17:44:07 mizmo: and perhaps spend less time talking to people who spend a lot of time with their faces close to the bathroom floor 17:44:11 We can fix the KDM theme in updates indeed, but that won't help the live images. :-( 17:44:16 :) 17:44:41 Kevin_Kofler: but it's still functional - you make it sound like having a sub-perfect piece of artwork is a fatal flaw 17:44:52 skvidal: yeh but the artwork is a little different. artwork needs to be way more perfect than anything else from release 17:44:59 esp consider it's the kdm login screen - you see it for, hoopefully, about 30s and then it is gone 17:45:27 (i guess im quite biased though) 17:45:31 mizmo: I'd argue that the loader, grub, kernel, glibc, rpm and yum need to be more perfect but that's just my 'install things' bias 17:45:36 Kevin_Kofler: when you say 'we', are you proxying for a specific member of the kde team? 17:46:37 Usually it's one of us per release. For the last couple releases, it has been jreznik, but some earlier themes have been done by me, and before that by than. 17:46:42 i.e., do we need to do a 'make sure gets pre-release artwork even before it's packaged' 17:47:03 skvidal: i guess, the artwork is very very very visible and very prominent, and even if you fix afterwards i dont want people thinking 'f12 the drunken night spent on the floor in a public restroom release' 17:47:21 So the current contact person is jreznik. 17:47:30 mizmo: don't worry, that was the... what fudcon was that? release 17:48:08 mizmo: righto. 17:48:21 in any case 17:48:21 mizmo: If people think about f12 AT ALL - I'm happy, actually. 17:49:14 mizmo: Kevin_Kofler: as above, they start making the doc/tour screenshots next wednesday. can we ensure that the final-final artwork and related changes are all done and in packages with tag requests by next Tuesday, so they can be tagged for wednesday and the docs/mktg team can start on that task? 17:49:16 any way. now is a really bad time for me so im sorry if im grumpy but i've got 42 iterations of wallpaper i've spent the past 20+ hours hacking on as quickly as possible, it's a miserable process especially considering my shocking color mangaement discovery , so im a little over sensitive at the moment 17:49:26 notting: sure 17:50:35 question, is jreznik involved in the artlist where mo is sending about these wallpapers? 17:51:04 yes he is, but i do not think he spoke up when we worked with poelcat to get our items on the schedule and mapped out, so i believe part of the problem here is we have no idea what his deadlines are 17:51:51 notting: But what if people want to do KDM and KSplash screenshots? Then they'll need those themes updated (color scheme matching, maybe other changes), too. 17:52:15 that's why i'm asking you if that 'related changes' can be done by then 17:52:30 I don't know. 17:53:00 jreznik is quite busy. 17:53:19 we are all busy. looks like i dont get a weekend this weekend. 17:53:29 but in the end 17:53:38 it's worth it if fedora looks kick-ass 17:53:38 Maybe one of us other KDE SIG folks can step in, but we don't want to end up with "too many cooks" chaos. 17:54:46 Are the updated wallpapers finalized yet? 17:55:08 no, i am working on them right now 17:55:15 thus, the no weekend 17:55:46 mizmo: is the current candidate just the one with the highest number? 17:56:06 nope right now im developing this one http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/art/f12/oct%2020/rain31.png 17:58:41 * jds2001 has to go 17:58:49 someone wanna wrap this up for me? 17:59:04 * jds2001 thinks we're going in circles here at any rate and not getting much of anywhere. 17:59:32 proposal: all changes for both artwork, and kde theming thereof, need to be in packages w/tag requests by next tuesday, or we cannot change? 18:00:05 *sigh 18:00:43 (sorry :'( ) 18:01:09 sounds decent to me, if a bit heavy-handed 18:02:22 I'm not sure we're not asking the impossible there. If mizmo needs the weekend to finalize the wallpaper, that just leaves 2 days for jreznik to update the KDE themes. 18:03:22 does the wallpaper need to be updated in kde? 18:03:24 does it really? 18:03:30 What I see is that the wallpaper is completely different, assuming https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F12_Artwork/Beta is what we're comparing with. 18:03:32 it would be odd if they were different 18:03:34 we used to do completely different designs for gdm vs wallpaper 18:03:44 i dont think it would be that strange 18:04:21 over time we've made everything off one base image but at one point every single image was different 18:04:47 That rain31.png also has one issue in that it is very crowded right at the place where we'll want to put the KSplash progress bar (slightly below the center). 18:04:55 Kevin_Kofler: it's a draft 18:05:38 in the future it would be nice for us to have a set of requirements for the KDE artwork 18:05:41 right now we have nothing 18:05:52 it's not difficult though to mask the bottom of the image if thats where you need to put a progress bar. 18:06:54 Hmmm, wait before doing any changes, I'll need to check how the current KSplash theme actually looks. 18:07:09 notting: +1 18:07:13 notting: to your proposal 18:07:31 But chances are we'll have to completely reposition the elements anyway as the geometric structure of the wallpaper is very different from the old one. 18:07:57 skvidal: but i dont want to bust my ass coming up with something kick ass that has to be thrown out because kde has to match 18:08:02 skvidal: i think that's a silly requirement 18:08:28 i can get something kickass in by tuesday i am sure 18:08:39 mizmo: okay - that's fine - then you can issue an update like anyone else. I'm sorry. 18:08:45 that's how I feel about it 18:08:47 hence my vote 18:08:54 the artwork can't be updated like that 18:08:59 the artwork is used for everything 18:09:04 look at the design team schedule 18:09:05 release postesrs 18:09:08 For reference, this was the final F11 KSplash theme: http://fedoreando.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/leonidas-ksplash.png 18:09:08 flyers 18:09:10 banners 18:09:11 tshirts 18:09:23 The whirl below the Fedora logo was the progress indicator. 18:09:43 Some KSplash themes put it further down. 18:10:00 But center bottom is the general position where it'll have to be. 18:10:02 do any other fesco members have a position on the proposal on the table? 18:10:20 Kevin_Kofler: no matter what the composition of the wallpaper, it's hardly a challenge as long as im given requirements as to how large and where the progress will be positioned 18:10:41 +1 to notting's proposal 18:10:46 i don't think kde should have to match. it's not the default spin. 18:10:51 the default spin will match 18:11:00 please :( 18:11:16 :'( 18:11:18 The KDM theme generally also wants to put stuff in the center. 18:11:25 Kevin_Kofler: not a problem. seriously. 18:11:34 This is the upstream Air theme on which our current design is based on: http://moinakg.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/kde-kdm1.png 18:12:23 can we say the new wallpaper goes in, if kde can't be updated in time, they could go with upstream theming? 18:12:25 I can see if we can get screenshots of our current theme to you ASAP. These were just to give the general idea of where components are placed. 18:12:41 mizmo: No. 18:12:50 It's too late to change to that now. 18:12:52 this is not fair. 18:13:02 And we'd be throwing away all the work jreznik has done on the Constantine theming so far! 18:13:08 i just threw away an entire fucking week 18:13:13 trying to fix the wallpaper 18:13:23 i dont have a fucking week 18:13:26 what a waste 18:13:44 im done. 18:14:13 We could allow for a few more days to complete the KDE theming, I don't think Tuesday is realistic at all. 18:14:57 * skvidal wonders where the rest of fesco went 18:15:39 dgilmore, j-rod, jds2001, nirik, dwmw2_gone ping 18:15:47 jds2001 did say he had to leav 18:16:02 and I assume dwmw2_gone is gone 18:16:03 so 18:16:11 dgilmore, j-rod, nirik: ping 18:16:43 hrm? 18:16:53 * j-rod got distracted... 18:16:57 nirik is away too 18:16:58 got a position on the current proposal 18:17:06 do we even have a quorum? 18:17:17 skvidal: pong 18:18:05 there has been a long discussion with regard to the artwork and what is the last time to change it 18:18:22 mizmo has presented a case for letting her do more work this weekend. 18:18:27 skvidal: ill read abck. i thought the meeting was done and stopped paying attention 18:18:32 Kevin_Kofler: has presented a case against it 18:19:01 notting has made a proposal 18:19:35 the proposal was 18:19:36 [13:59] proposal: all changes for both artwork, and kde theming thereof, need to be in packages w/tag requests by next tuesday, or we cannot change? 18:19:43 TBH, I think that proposal isn't going to work, the timeframe is too short. 18:20:07 So we'd ask mizmo to do the work over the weekend just to have it thrown out because there's no time left to complete the KDE theme. 18:20:12 notting: that isn't going to work for the desktop spin 18:20:24 notting: how can we do our own thing then? 18:20:43 could the kde spin keep the beta artwork as a unit 18:20:48 and the desktop spin get the updated wallpaper 18:20:55 ... that is the date that's been on the schedule for many months 18:21:00 then the kde spin could get a 0-day update to get the final artwork if they choose? 18:21:18 then they dont clash between login screen and wallpaper 18:21:23 We've considered that in the #fedora-kde discussion. 18:21:28 and thematically the artwork still fits. 18:21:37 notting: we're not going out the door with a wallpaper we don't want - that is just dumb 18:21:37 0-day updates for something that's a component shown to everyone on the live spin isn't really a practical fix 18:21:55 But the thing is, our stuff is going to look outdated if we stick with the same artwork as the beta whereas GNOME gets updated. :-( 18:22:13 notting: but that was the alternative i thought on the table if we didn't make tuesday 18:22:27 Kevin_Kofler: outdated? whose to say which is newer? 18:22:40 Kevin_Kofler: it's not like i designed the beta wallpaper in the 1980s 18:22:58 * notting makes note to request parachute pant artwork 18:23:07 day-glo parachute pants 18:23:11 mayi make a comment 18:23:13 and jelly shoes! 18:23:19 this is insane - we can't design multiple products at the same time 18:23:42 im ok with notting proposal 18:24:09 dgilmore: are you okay with me spending a weekend doing work that might get thrown out if jreznik happens to not have time to update kdm? 18:24:13 or ksplash or whatever 18:24:33 mizmo: keeping the existing background wallpaper available is agreeable, and a reasonable backup plan 18:24:36 kde cannot be in the critical path for getting the design we want in fedora 18:24:46 rdieter: for the whole distro or for KDE? 18:24:46 mccann: Except it is... 18:24:54 then it needs designed earlier 18:25:05 This is Fedora, Not gnome vs kde which appears to be the argument is coming down to 18:25:12 mizmo: if kde misses the boat then thats there own fault. as long as it makes it in somewhere im ok with it. 18:25:13 mizmo: whole distro is preferable (ie, doesn't require any modications on our part) 18:25:14 kde has a different audience than the gnome deskto 18:25:15 notting: Right, that's the whole point. 18:25:16 there's a difference between 'polish' and 'design' 18:25:17 notting: that's nice and all but... 18:25:22 mizmo: i happen to really like the beta artwork 18:25:24 i would argue to serve its audience kde should have a wallpaper that appeals to that audience 18:25:40 dgilmore: it's not the wallpaper i as a designer want going out in the final. i would be ashamed of it. 18:25:50 i mean, if i *REALLY* want to piss everyone off 18:25:54 mizmo: :( i still like it 18:26:11 i should note that the design team's own schedule says: "28. Final Packaging of All Release Artwork Tue 2009-09-29 Tue 2009-09-29" 18:26:16 If I can offer an opinion 18:26:28 We've had only positive feedback for the Beta artwork in KDE land. 18:26:39 * jds2001 is back, sorry 18:26:39 That includes the wallpaper, and the themes jreznik did on top of it. 18:26:58 * stickster is sorry to come in late, we have a FAD going on right now and so I can't watch IRC all day :-) 18:26:59 Kevin_Kofler: KDE land is a different land than GNOME land. and that's fine. if the wallpaper works for your userbase then stick with it. 18:27:28 I was going to ask, has anyone brought up the schedule? I see that notting just did. 18:27:39 kde just needs to go its own way 18:27:45 mizmo: +1 (we can make it work, regardless) 18:28:07 mccann: heavens no, that's a bit extreme 18:28:11 mccann: To add to that: the KDE spin is one of the permanent, mirrored spins, we really want to present a consistent Fedora look and work hard for it, but of course that means we need to get the wallpapers in time for us to theme based on that. 18:28:13 +1 to KDE going with whatever they like. 18:28:23 thanks rdieter :) 18:28:47 Kevin_Kofler: i'm not sure a consistent look is that important 18:29:03 We have an opportunity every release to revisit schedule items for each team, Design being one of them 18:29:04 Kevin_Kofler: i mean they're two very different pieces of the fedora puzzle 18:29:12 with different objectives, target users, etc 18:29:20 it's okay if they're different 18:29:22 My proposal: the Design Team needs to get the new wallpaper in by Tuesday, any nontrivial change after that will be rejected. KDE SIG will do its best to work with that. 18:29:24 that's sort of the point 18:29:38 other distros dont have a consistent look and feel in their kde vs. gnome vs. xfce vs. lxde spins i didnt think 18:29:42 (But for F13, we'll need some harder freezing.) 18:30:04 the thing is that kde should not have any power to say what goes into the default fedora 18:30:35 if we share then great 18:30:35 And why not? 18:30:39 i think having this discussion go into theoretical who decided what, and what the default look and feel is for is not going to be productive *right now* 18:30:40 If you break things for us, we WILL complain. 18:30:50 we have a hard date at which marketing starts creating collateral 18:30:55 that date is next wednesday 18:30:58 look it is hard enough to compete with ubuntu we cannot have this BS in fedora 18:31:00 Shared components need to actually work everywhere. 18:31:02 notting: right we are delving into non-productivity right now 18:31:07 the UI needs 'frozen' by then 18:31:12 or we need to slip the schedule. 18:31:17 Agree 18:31:29 Kevin_Kofler: we need to do something for F-13 that makes the shared components more seamless 18:31:37 given that that next wednesday date is all of one week before the RC, i don't think it's that big of a deal having a drop-dead date there 18:31:40 i dont think the wallpaper should be a shared component! 18:31:45 As for Ubuntu, the fact that they don't accomodate much for KDE in their shared work is one of Kubuntu's major issues. 18:31:49 Kevin_Kofler: but we can discuss that later/next week 18:31:52 We shouldn't be even worse than them! 18:32:35 The time for Design to find out that there are heavy dependencies on their output should come much earlier in the cycle. 18:32:46 define "shared work" as it relates to ubuntu, and the more broad question is why are we even talking about ubuntu to begin with? 18:32:48 beyond the ones about which they already know. 18:33:06 jds2001: no idea why 18:33:21 we can learn from there mistakes but we need to make our own 18:33:29 stickster: maybe a bit of a miscomunication. In my mind, our (kde's) depending on constantine-backgrounds was a given 18:33:48 stickster: We've been trying to tell them that we need the wallpapers earlier so we can design KSplash and KDM themes based on that since at least F7! 18:33:58 Somehow the message didn't get through. :-( 18:34:01 Kevin_Kofler: and we've been getting wallpapers to you earlier and earlier every release. 18:34:05 Kevin_Kofler: so don't give me that shit. 18:34:38 You've been getting us "wallpapers", but not the wallpapers... 18:34:41 but, again... the schedule says the release artwork was 'final' 3 1/2 weeks ago. is the schedule not correct? 18:34:44 That's the important distinction there. 18:35:08 Kevin_Kofler: you can't have your cake and fucking eat it too. You either get early, but not 100%, with a chance to comment ; or you get late but final. 18:35:10 alright, let's vote on notting's proposal. 18:35:17 UI (which i define to mean the GNOME 18:35:30 UI) is frozen by wednesday or we slip.... 18:35:32 The new wallpaper is completely different from a geometrical/organizational point of view and the color scheme also got adjusted (you explained why). 18:35:33 Kevin_Kofler: i wish i had clones. i wish i was a robot. but im not. 18:35:51 Kevin_Kofler: if i watched the first scene of the titanic and the last scene i would think it was a very different movie. 18:35:59 Kevin_Kofler: design is an iterative process. 18:36:12 Kevin_Kofler: you can eat your meat raw or you can wait until it's cooked. 18:36:13 mizmo, Kevin_Kofler: please stop 18:36:13 We need to stop it at some point. 18:36:20 both o you 18:36:21 stop 18:36:24 notting: fedora doesn't have anyone working on the wallpapers - mo is doing it mostly on her own time 18:36:35 notting: so we have basically no power to dictate a schedule 18:36:37 E.g. we all agree that we can't update the artwork in updates. We just don't agree on when the point to stop should be. 18:36:51 notting: on the other hand there is a huge risk to the product and the brand if we fuck it up 18:36:59 a pretty shitty situation overall 18:37:08 mccann: i'm not dictating, that schedule comes from the design team, which mo leads 18:37:19 that's easy, i just proposed something that notting proposed. Let's vote on it and end this. This is getting absolutely nowhere. 18:37:32 we all have other things to do and lives to live. 18:37:36 mccann: if we're treating this as an exception to that schedule, i suppose it frames the discussion differently 18:37:55 notting: sure I'm only saying that from my point of view we didn't get it done and we need to make sure we do 18:38:00 it should be treated as an exception to the schedule 18:38:03 and damn kde 18:38:04 and im really sorry about that 18:38:09 we need it 18:38:27 think about what's been on my plate for f12 18:38:40 get.fpo redesign. spins redesign. fedora insight design from the ground up + html/css. and the artwork. 18:38:51