20:05:22 <asamaras> #startmeeting 20:05:22 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Nov 24 20:05:22 2009 UTC. The chair is asamaras. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 20:05:22 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 20:06:06 <mchua> rbergeron: perfect timing! 20:06:07 * rbergeron waves 20:06:10 <asamaras> welcome all 20:06:16 <mchua> Fedora Marketing user stories sprint time :) 20:06:18 * sdziallas looks 20:06:21 * mchua turns the floor over to asamaras 20:06:31 <mchua> asamaras: it's all yours :) tell us what to do! 20:07:11 <asamaras> I have put up a small wiki to write success (and failure) stories 20:07:40 <asamaras> the scope is to address basiclly non-so-technical audience 20:08:02 <asamaras> and provide at the same time info for more technical persons 20:08:46 <asamaras> the failures are to serve a scope of what-went-wrong kind of thing 20:09:18 <asamaras> wile success to expose some of the not-so-well-known application that Fedora may have 20:09:27 <rbergeron> like a ... what-went-wrong to feed to engineering? or to feed to other users in their usage 20:09:34 <mchua> So we're writing small case studies of "this-person-used-Fedora-for-that, and this is what happened"? 20:09:37 <asamaras> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Asamaras/Fedora_Success_stories 20:10:33 <asamaras> actually is more lice creating a "honney pot" for those who are not quite clear about Fedora 20:11:07 <asamaras> also the jurnalists can use it to write stories 20:11:36 <asamaras> "Fedora is a community " message can also be stated here 20:11:52 <asamaras> via the failed attemps, 20:12:30 <asamaras> at the same time maybe a basic methodology (approach) can be given via success stories highliting the "DO" 20:12:49 <asamaras> and analizing the failures will include the "DO NOT" 20:13:03 <asamaras> in a more popular way 20:13:19 <asamaras> I wrote in two diffrent ways 20:13:46 <asamaras> a clear cut for those who would more likely to look for a how-to and a methodology 20:14:00 <mizmo> asamaras: are you looking for personal stories about Fedora usage? 20:14:13 <asamaras> and the second one as an illustration for more popular approach 20:14:23 <asamaras> mishti, if possible yes 20:14:49 <asamaras> in this way the press will know how and whom to contact 20:14:56 <asamaras> for interviews 20:15:01 <rbergeron> mizmo: when asamaras is done or at a break point can you talk a little about the stuff you're doing and how this ties in a bit :) plz 20:15:08 <mizmo> rbergeron: sure 20:15:47 <asamaras> so the main target audience (at least for me) are jurnalist and Ambasadors 20:16:29 <asamaras> secondary target audience I feel are the IT consultants that have some not-so-clean picture of Fedora 20:16:48 <asamaras> then the end-users (users/sysadmins) 20:16:57 <rbergeron> asamaras: do you think it would be wise to maybe call it something more... umm.. marketing-friendly other than "failures" 20:17:00 <asamaras> and finaly system architects 20:17:11 <asamaras> no problem 20:17:15 <rbergeron> not that i have any offhand suggestions 20:17:33 <rbergeron> but "failures" in big bold font as a subject just seems like it's a little ugly :) 20:17:45 <asamaras> take a hint : [edit] It's a Blue Monday 20:18:29 <asamaras> so let's call them missed approaches? 20:18:52 <rbergeron> i mean, ideally we'd want them to wind up being succcess stories... just with a little longer path than expected 20:19:06 <rbergeron> biertie: i had a difficult time but the fedora community helped me pull through 20:19:13 <rbergeron> yikes, sorry 20:19:19 * rbergeron curses her irc client again 20:19:27 <asamaras> np 20:19:42 <rbergeron> i mean, if it's a difficult problem 20:19:57 <rbergeron> maybe it's something that needs to be passed on to engineering, if it's a common use case 20:20:06 <asamaras> #action change failures to something else 20:20:09 <rbergeron> bugzillas, whatever 20:20:24 <asamaras> we can brainstorm on it 20:20:37 <rbergeron> we should definitely consider taking the ... not so successful stories 20:20:40 <asamaras> for the time I am describing the "why" part 20:20:56 <rbergeron> and going through the full loop and not just making a story out of it, but really also solve the root cause 20:21:01 <rbergeron> okay, i'll let you talk :) sorry 20:21:26 <asamaras> and a success story is something that any commercial marketing would press 20:22:00 <asamaras> but including "failures" we enable those who 20:22:09 <asamaras> simply could not do something 20:22:25 <asamaras> at the same time we convert them into active members of community 20:22:56 <asamaras> and we could go and create some discussions on how the success could be achieved 20:23:43 <asamaras> this could be done by a billboard having a topic about the hard-to-solve stories 20:23:48 <mchua> Should we start writing and see where we get? 20:24:02 <asamaras> well I guess now it is a good time to ask for your oppinion 20:24:39 <asamaras> as soon as we decide on the basics that each story has to have 20:24:50 <rbergeron> where are we soliciting these end-users from, and are we sorting them by...function? 20:25:03 <rbergeron> desktop, sysadmin, developer, etc 20:25:23 <asamaras> #idea group the stories 20:25:57 <rbergeron> i think it would be interesting to do a "i'm a developer and here's my success story on getting my open source project / package / whatever into fedora 20:25:59 <rbergeron> " 20:26:15 <mchua> Ooh, that's a neat idea too! 20:26:17 <rbergeron> success story of working with the community, not just success on how i used fedora 20:26:42 * mchua is curious what specific stories people are thinking about writing 20:26:48 <asamaras> I also would like to have some IT consultants :) 20:26:59 <rbergeron> and also a "i'm a developer and here's how great f12 was out of the box for developing xyz" 20:27:20 <asamaras> #idea developers stories 20:27:25 <rbergeron> but i think it's important that we're getting... let's call them 20:27:29 <rbergeron> inexperienced fedora users? 20:27:52 <rbergeron> or at least 20:27:58 <rbergeron> not me interviewing mchua for example 20:28:01 <rbergeron> that seems slightly biased :) 20:28:24 * rbergeron had a crazy idea earlier about doing fedora taste tests or something 20:28:38 <asamaras> something like "Just born in this world?" 20:29:12 <rbergeron> getting people who haven't used fedora before, or not for a while, to see if it would meet their needs the way their current os does 20:29:20 * rbergeron puts that on the backburner brain-dump list 20:29:48 <asamaras> rbergeron, this is why I would like to see more IT there 20:30:02 <asamaras> you see usually they design a solution 20:30:19 <asamaras> rather than going for a out-of-the-box 20:30:43 * mchua was going to write a user story about www.olin.edu/it/documents/Linux/fc9-relnotes.pdf 20:31:02 <mchua> the Linux admin at my college made a custom version of Fedora to dual-boot all the student (engineering) computers on 20:31:12 <rbergeron> yes, but... usually "designing a solution" seems like it might be a one-off implementation of something wacky that people might not relate to 20:31:16 <rbergeron> so while that's important 20:31:17 <asamaras> I would love to see stories like the second one stating that there is way for windowed enviromnet to take advantage of Fedora's goods 20:31:23 <rbergeron> to show that fedora has varying capabilities etc 20:31:38 <rbergeron> i think other stories like... i switched my whole mail server to fedora 20:31:39 <rbergeron> or something 20:31:42 <asamaras> rbergeron, totally aggreed 20:31:43 <rbergeron> that is more... relatable 20:31:48 <rbergeron> is good too 20:32:08 <rbergeron> what might be a good idea 20:32:17 <asamaras> you see in my story I used VM to keep an Active Directory alive 20:32:18 <rbergeron> is to comeup with a list of possible scenarios 20:32:20 <rbergeron> of end-usage 20:32:26 <rbergeron> and solicit that way 20:32:27 <rbergeron> like 20:32:27 <mchua> rbergeron, asamaras: perhaps a good deliverable for this sprint would be a list of stories - or types of stories - we'd like to write over the course of F13, and to start writing one each 20:32:36 <rbergeron> "thinking of fedora for XYZ? you're a fit for this interview" 20:32:54 <rbergeron> mchua: i see we're on the same wavelength 20:33:11 <rbergeron> and also solicit "using fedora for something new and exciting? let us show you the light" 20:33:22 <rbergeron> for things that aren't necessarily out of the box 20:33:35 <rbergeron> i think it's good to show that general scenarios do work out of the box 20:33:37 <mchua> asamaras: with the stories that you've written so far serving as really good examples for the people who come to write things on that list 20:33:42 <rbergeron> and that it's not some crazy sprint 20:33:57 <rbergeron> where you're doing heavy lifting to do something that should be simple 20:34:44 <asamaras> #action create list of stories - or types of stories 20:35:27 <asamaras> still we have to maintain it reasonably popular 20:35:53 <mizmo> choirboy (thomas cameron) told me his 4 year old daughter uses Fedora and he'd be happy to share her story if its useful to you folks 20:35:54 <asamaras> it's marketing not pure and hard core technical 20:36:28 <asamaras> THIS IS IT mizmo the best "user friendly" story 20:37:19 <asamaras> ask him to share his story 20:37:36 <asamaras> it would go under end-user section 20:38:14 * mchua notes we've got 25m left in the sprint - do we want to aim for that list of stories? 20:38:16 <asamaras> I will also ask for contribution by other web-programmers 20:39:38 <asamaras> well let's categorize them 20:39:41 <rbergeron> let's do that, i think it's a good idea 20:39:49 <asamaras> a quick question for all 20:39:54 <mchua> yep? 20:40:19 <asamaras> users/sysadmins/developers/ITs 20:40:23 <asamaras> or 20:41:00 <asamaras> Everyday stories / Yet another server / Less code more functionality 20:41:08 <asamaras> type of categorization? 20:41:56 <rbergeron> i like the users / sysadmins / developers idea 20:42:03 <mchua> +1 20:42:08 <rbergeron> since it ties in with how fedora release notes / highlights are written 20:42:10 <mchua> we'll put it on a wiki so we can adjust if needed ;) 20:42:16 <mchua> story brainstorm time? 20:42:22 <asamaras> ok then 20:42:34 <asamaras> yep 20:43:36 <asamaras> maybe create yet one for plans (we pan to do this this way) also? 20:43:46 <rbergeron> start with users, i guess? 20:44:10 <asamaras> why not 20:44:35 <asamaras> but on the other hand sysadmins are easier (we all have something cool to say) 20:44:42 <mchua> asamaras: try changing the topic so we have a clear start/end of the brainstorm in the logs 20:44:49 <mchua> asamaras: #topic Brainstorm Start 20:44:58 <asamaras> #topic Brainstorm Start 20:45:02 <mchua> cool :) 20:45:05 <asamaras> thnaks mchua 20:45:23 <asamaras> thanks that is 20:45:31 <mchua> let's just put out all our ideas for the next... asamaras, how long do you want to do this, 5 m? and then step back and see where we stand 20:45:41 <rbergeron> so for users, i think that something like a college student using fedora / OO to write papers and do research might be good 20:46:02 <asamaras> sure mchua I think 5 min are a good estimate 20:46:09 <rbergeron> kids at home playing internet-based games... maybe someone putting together a cheap workstation for their kids etc. 20:46:27 <mchua> * Olinux - college sysadmin created custom version of Fedora for dual-booting all engineering student laptops (both an IT story and a student-user/new-user story) 20:46:28 <asamaras> also OO project management and Database are cool 20:46:37 <rbergeron> also doing some thing based on the special fedora packages .. the robotics or whatever 20:46:42 <mchua> * tour of Fedora by a 4/5/6/7 year old 20:46:52 <asamaras> :) 20:46:53 <rbergeron> mchua may have a better thought on what that grouping of packages is called 20:46:54 <rbergeron> :) 20:47:06 <rbergeron> ohhhhhhhhh 20:47:11 <rbergeron> using fedora as a home media server 20:47:23 <asamaras> streaming @ home ? 20:47:30 <rbergeron> something to that effect 20:47:32 <asamaras> nice one 20:47:39 <rbergeron> keeping your music library or whatever there 20:47:51 <mchua> * sdziallas's story of getting involved with the edu sig - maybe a few stories here, incl. making SoaS based on Fedora 20:47:56 <rbergeron> i don't want to call it "my home ftp server plz leech" :) 20:48:16 <rbergeron> ummmm 20:48:32 <asamaras> no it was streaming ; that is not routable 20:48:36 <rbergeron> i mean, general education anything is good, elementary, middle, high school 20:48:39 <mchua> * I think the "ianweller teaches professors at POSSE how to make packages" is a good one both in terms of "cool story" and "zomg this is hard for smart new contributors plz can haz make easier" 20:49:48 <rbergeron> are we doing this by groups or are we thoroughly braindumping for all categories 20:49:59 <asamaras> streaming is leagal as long as it is in closed user groups and the content is legal also 20:50:03 <mchua> * the Fedora Insight deployment is a Fedora user story, imo - being able to package stuff up, work with the community to deploy it, etc. is the *only* thing that's going to make FI possible to deploy and maintain 20:50:11 * rbergeron nods 20:50:24 <rbergeron> using fedora to run a phpbb server 20:50:26 <rbergeron> mail server 20:50:29 <rbergeron> listserv 20:50:33 <mchua> rbergeron: I was braindumping for all categories, but can stick to one category at a time 20:50:34 <rbergeron> apache 20:50:36 <mchua> (if wanted) 20:50:52 <rbergeron> mchua: i don't care, i think when these get sorted out on the wiki it will be obvious which goes where, generally 20:50:57 * mchua nods 20:51:02 <mchua> * fedora for designers (tablet meme!) 20:51:17 <mchua> * fedora for audio geeks (we have an audio/music list, podcasting, etc) 20:51:20 <asamaras> mobiles 20:51:31 <mchua> * how FWN works 20:51:38 <mchua> * ooh, yeah - the Mini SIG, the Moblin spin! 20:51:47 <asamaras> :) 20:51:51 <rbergeron> using fedora to read my emailz with xyz 20:52:04 <rbergeron> developers stuff is pretty wide open 20:52:15 <rbergeron> maybe different ... eclipse packages or whatever? 20:52:17 <asamaras> using PIM 20:52:19 * rbergeron is not a developer so umm 20:52:19 <mchua> * "I found this bug and I reported it and look it got fixed" (qa/dev story) 20:52:25 <rbergeron> right 20:52:41 <mchua> * "I packaged foobar in Fedora and suddenly my foobar program had a lot more users" 20:52:41 <rbergeron> i found a bug and made a patch, also 20:52:50 <asamaras> whoaaa that's productive 20:52:52 <rbergeron> mchua: that's a good one 20:53:09 <rbergeron> that is like a 2-pronged marketing thing there 20:53:23 <rbergeron> a success story and an attractor to get ppl to get their stuff packaged :) 20:53:31 <mchua> yep, I think bug-reporting needs at least 2 stories - one from someone who is a dev who could fix it, one from someone who isn't a developer 20:53:49 <mchua> * "how the 1-page release notes were made" (this can more or less copy-paste Mo's blog post, methinks) 20:54:03 <mchua> * for that matter, "how the website was redesigned" 20:54:16 <mchua> (both the release notes and the website were made in the fedora community, using tools in Fedora) 20:54:57 <mchua> * something docs related? 20:55:06 <asamaras> and translations 20:55:11 <asamaras> :D 20:55:33 <mchua> ooh yes - maybe the story of a translation sprint, or a "wow, this is the first time I've used an operating system in my native language" story 20:55:57 <mchua> the "how transifex got started" story is also a really good one 20:56:41 <mchua> Luke Macken on "how we made moksha" might also be a winner 20:56:59 <asamaras> let's put them down to a wiki and see what else the community can suggest 20:57:13 <mchua> even the PackageKit story from last week might be good 20:57:19 <mchua> "here's how we deal with issues" 20:57:28 <mchua> (I thought that actually went *amazingly* well) 20:58:00 <mchua> (I mean, 3 days from "ARGH!" to "ok, we fixed this, and it taught us a lot about how to do things better in the future") 20:58:15 <asamaras> yes it has all the aspects development, PR and marketing 20:58:31 <asamaras> also "ok, we missed it, but we fixed it" 20:59:46 <asamaras> responce time downt to 3 days : lots of users downloaded F12 and reported, so within 3 days from the release day .... 21:01:04 <asamaras> do you think we should allow more time to brainstorm or should we call for better brain weather? 21:01:45 <mchua> asamaras: I think we're in a good position to wrap up, put this on a wiki page, take a quick look over it 21:02:00 <mchua> asamaras: and then go to the Design sprint and show the folks there our story list, I think it actually might be quite helpful to them 21:02:18 <mchua> one moment and I'll grab the log and stick it on a page somewhere 21:02:35 <rbergeron> mizmo, can you do the little chat about what you're doing and how it ties in... i guess in the design sprint? :) 21:04:11 <asamaras> #topic free talk 21:04:23 * rbergeron wonders where that sprint is a-happenin 21:05:11 * mchua dumped the brainstorm part of our transcript in https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_stories and is now cleaning up 21:05:19 <mizmo> rbergeron: #fedora-design 21:05:30 <mizmo> rbergeron: right now we're interviewing the fedora infrateam with our stakeholder interview questions 21:05:39 <mizmo> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_Research_Plan#Stakeholders 21:05:44 <mizmo> it's gone on for 50 minutes or so 21:05:46 <asamaras> and looks like you have done alot of work 21:07:53 <asamaras> mchua, rbergeron and all should we call this meeting over? 21:07:55 <mchua> asamaras, rbergeron: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_stories 21:08:06 <mchua> it needs categorization & sorting but I think we have a good start 21:08:37 <mchua> asamaras: so I think the next thing would be (1) to briefly categorize them, (2) put a description at the top for what we're aiming for with the user stories project 21:08:53 <rbergeron> sounds good 21:08:57 <mchua> asamaras: then (3) link your stories in as examples, and (4) start asking people on IRC, mailing lists, etc, to write the rest ;) 21:09:10 <mchua> asamaras: this was an /awesome/ start though, thanks for driving the sprint! 21:09:19 <mchua> I think we have a clearer idea of where we're headed now 21:09:23 * mchua sits back 21:09:36 <mchua> asamaras: (that's all I had, if you think we're done then we're done ;) 21:09:48 <mchua> asamaras: (the command to end the meeting is #endmeeting) 21:10:15 <asamaras> I think there is aliot of work to be done, but we can hanle it 21:10:25 <asamaras> thank you all 21:10:29 <asamaras> #endmeeting