18:03:37 #startmeeting Fedora Release Engineering 18:03:37 Meeting started Mon Jan 11 18:03:37 2010 UTC. The chair is Oxf13. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:03:37 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 18:03:46 #meetingname fedora-releng 18:03:46 The meeting name has been set to 'fedora-releng' 18:03:54 #topic roll call 18:04:19 ping: notting jwb lmacken wwoods rdieter_work poelcat warren dgilmore spot 18:04:26 pong 18:04:58 * dgilmore is here 18:05:33 * notting is here 18:05:37 here'ish 18:06:17 wwoods: ping; releng meeting 18:06:39 in real-life meeting 18:06:41 so I want this to be something of a quick meeting, there isn't a lot of new topics 18:07:00 #topic no frozen rawhide 18:07:02 * wwoods appears in a puff of smoke 18:07:19 lmacken: notting: progress reports on your end of this project? 18:07:28 no progress 18:07:58 I saw a patch dump from lmacken and talk of getting something up to test, not sure how far down that road he got 18:09:04 #info Bodhi code has been posted for review, a test instance coming soon I hope 18:09:15 Moving on. 18:09:18 #topic dist-git 18:09:40 Still working on fedpkg here, a few more targets got coded last week, more to come this week 18:10:21 I may also do a module refresh this week to get our git repos setup a bit better to start with and take another stab at filtering out the kernel repo some. 18:11:05 #info progress on fedpkg, will continue work 18:11:22 #info may refresh git repos this week 18:11:52 stabbity stab 18:12:00 warren: ? 18:12:05 you said stab 18:12:11 ah 18:12:23 #topic fedora-release subpackage proposal 18:12:33 nirik created a wiki page for this proposal 18:12:43 * nirik looks up. 18:13:01 Any further feedback on it? 18:13:03 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/RawhideRepoSubpackage 18:13:35 If we go this route, and it seems there are many who would want to, i do wish to make the rawhide repo still disabled by default, even if it's in its own package 18:13:46 I know it adds complexity, but I think it's worth it to reduce the number of people who mess up and install rawhide packages when they shouldn't. 18:14:12 yeah, there are some use cases there where people would want to install it, but not enable it. 18:14:25 and I agree that enabling rawhide on just a package install is not a good idea. 18:14:27 nirik: if I make the change, will you help find all the documentation that needs to be changed? 18:14:35 sure. Happy to! 18:14:42 ok. 18:15:10 * nirik tosses it on his todo list. 18:15:21 #idea Accept nirik's proposal, but keep rawhide disabled by default 18:15:31 lets put it to a vote. I'm +1 after seeing the list feedback. 18:15:47 +1 18:16:11 +1 18:17:26 wwoods: what does QA think about this? 18:18:13 +1 18:19:05 well, as long as the procedure for enabling rawhide is clear that's fine 18:19:19 I'm trying to find an explanation of what's supposed to happen at the end of the rawhide cycle 18:19:20 * dgilmore is ok with it 18:19:22 +! 18:19:33 rawhide never ends! ;) 18:19:41 badly phrased 18:19:42 wwoods: rawhide cycle doesn't end. 18:19:53 you mean when the next stable release is branched off. 18:20:18 when the branch happens, some testers will want a way to follow the stable-release branch rather than continuing to follow rawhide 18:20:19 people who have rawhide enabled, will need to grab the fedora-release from the branch and install it 18:20:28 I really think people should re-optin to rawhide at the stable branch point 18:20:30 if they really want rawhide 18:20:33 so QA will need to be able to say "here's what you do" 18:20:52 as long as we can tell testers how to get on and off the rawhide train, I'm totally cool with it 18:20:54 what do we currently do? 18:21:06 ie, does this change any with a subpackage? 18:21:24 well I guess that begs the question 18:21:40 it does change. currently, near the end of the rawhide cycle, we push out a new fedora-release package which disables the rawhide repo and enables the stable repos 18:22:00 nirik: currently when I make a fedora-release package for a new release, say for dist-f13 back when we branched away dist-f12, I set the rawhide repo to enabled, all other repos disabled 18:22:08 so everyone automatically gets shifted to the stable branch 18:22:15 nirik: so that if you did an install from dist-f13 content, you got put on the rawhide train 18:22:22 (unless they fail to update during the window between that point and the actual re-start of the new rawhide blah blah) 18:22:24 right. 18:22:49 * nirik gets confused by 'if you have edited your repo files' here. 18:22:52 anyway, as I said, I don't really care about the implementation, so long as we can tell testers what branches there are and how to switch between them 18:22:55 then at some point, rawhide would get disabled, and the fedora{-updates} repos were made enabled 18:23:02 this falls over a bit with no frozen rawhide 18:23:21 because with no frozen rawhide, once we branch, rawhide != the pending release 18:23:28 right. 18:23:31 so we can't put a yum config in rawhide that will point you to the pending release 18:23:54 so, we can't default people to the stable release easily. 18:23:59 right. 18:24:05 for people that are currently on rawhide, yes 18:24:06 given that the goal of some of this is to get more people using rawhide 18:24:09 that may not be bad. 18:24:12 people who install alpha will stay on the stable release 18:24:16 perhaps we might want to rethink this 18:24:19 (ditto beta, etc...) 18:24:25 people who choose rawhide will stay on rawhide, which is OK if you presume a more stable rawhide 18:24:29 Might it be better for the user to opt-in to each release? 18:24:35 warren: this actually doesn't have anything to do with fedora-release-rawhide being a subpackage 18:24:49 the "problem" exists whether or not it is a subpackage 18:24:52 ok 18:25:14 * nirik nods. 18:25:17 the only thing this changes is the procedure for switching between branches 18:25:25 "I opt in to rawhide which happens to be F-13 at the moment. I don't want to follow F-14 when we branch." 18:25:25 which I would like documented for testers. 18:25:46 that's less easy now 18:26:06 although... not impossible. 18:26:12 well, we could push one fedora-release to rawhide that switches people to stable. 18:26:17 then next day rawhide gets a new one. 18:26:22 well, impossible without having autosigning in place 18:26:31 except that anyone who doesn't update on *that one day* skips that update 18:26:33 nirik: that's assuming everyone updates daily 18:26:38 nirik: that's not really a long enough time 18:26:41 yeah, true. 18:26:53 I'd really prefer that you opt-in to a particular release number and follow that forever. 18:26:58 we currently have a window that's something like.. 1 week? 2 week? 18:27:02 and people still miss it. 18:27:04 I opt-in to F-13 wherever it comes from. 18:27:15 warren: easily done if you "opt-in" to the alpha release 18:27:30 it's only the time prior to alpha that you can get misdirected 18:27:43 so people who don't wanna run rawhide.. shouldn't run rawhide 18:27:48 which seems pretty obvious 18:27:51 why can't we make the time prior to alpha opt-in to F-13 too? 18:28:06 why can't people just wait for the stupid alpha 18:28:12 or make the switch 18:28:20 that would mean freezing rawhide for a week or two to get people to move to stable who want to I guess. 18:28:32 if you can't handle remembering to switch when alpha happens, maybe you shouldn't really be running pre-alpha stuff 18:29:09 warren: mostly because it would require A) mirrormanager hacks for redirections, and B) all packages gpg signed all the time 18:29:16 The same issue could happen there tho right, if you don't switch on the day of the branching of the next stable, you are stuck on rawhide? 18:29:25 A is easy, we've done it before. B is harder and going to take some time to get right 18:29:52 nirik: you may have to yum downgrade the fedora-release package 18:30:02 to move from rawhide back to the release, but yes 18:30:05 and anything rawhide that moved on. ;) 18:30:06 rawhide will move on 18:30:44 anyhow, the subpackage for rawhide doesn't matter much for this issue... it's more to make it harder for people on a stable release to accidentally enable it. 18:31:58 yep 18:32:14 #agreed fedora-release-rawhide will be made a subpackage 18:32:23 thanks! 18:32:34 #action Oxf13 will implement the subpackage 18:32:43 I look forward to not having to tell end users to re-install as often. ;) 18:32:47 #action nirik will gather list of documentation that needs to be changed 18:33:42 * lmacken rolls in late 18:33:55 #topic open floor 18:34:01 any open topics to discuss? 18:34:07 wrt bodhi no frozen rawhide/crit path 18:34:18 I'm working on some last-minute API tweaks for autoqa, and I hope to have something in staging today or tomorrow 18:34:20 #topic no frozen rawhide 18:34:36 #info lmacken hopes to have something staged by tomorrow for testing of bodhi 18:34:41 lmacken: anything else on that? 18:34:48 nada 18:34:53 #topic open floor 18:35:16 if nothing in a couple minutes, I'll close the meeting 18:36:54 Is this the right place to bring up the review request backlog? 18:39:06 not really. 18:40:29 #endmeeting