21:11:43 <kanarip> #startmeeting Spins SIG
21:11:43 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Jan 18 21:11:43 2010 UTC.  The chair is kanarip. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
21:11:43 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
21:12:04 <kanarip> #topic Minimal Kickstart Usage
21:12:25 <kanarip> i'll kick off with an opinion we can discuss
21:12:40 <kanarip> 1) i think the minimal ks is technically viable
21:13:09 <kanarip> 2) there's a little more maintenance to having two base kickstarts, but nothing worth the price of bouncing two spins
21:13:21 <huff> i think its a good idea
21:13:25 <huff> i would like to use them for both the AOS and ovirt-node-spin which I would like to have finilized buy this week
21:13:51 <kanarip> 3) we can use post-feature freeze to fold these two versions of minimal into one that makes a kickstart tick, and one that makes the basis for all desktop oriented spins
21:13:58 <nirik> yeah, I guess I was hoping we could merge that into base and have kde/gnome add the things over that they need...
21:14:06 <nirik> but in the end not sure it matters all that much I suppose.
21:14:16 <brunowolff> Are you thinking that we should have both the live minimal and live base this time around and eventually look at paring back live base.
21:14:31 <brunowolff> So that only one would be needed at some future time?
21:14:41 <kanarip> we can still do it, but we have to think of a way to move it forward, and not just another way to do the same thing
21:15:03 <kanarip> brunowolff, well, as i see it now there's two different purposes here
21:15:08 <kanarip> 1) is the very, very minimal
21:15:18 <kanarip> 2) is the minimal for a regular desktop oriented spin
21:15:51 <huff> I agree
21:15:57 <brunowolff> Right. But I thought we were using the live desktop ks for any gnome based spin?
21:16:31 <kanarip> brunowolff, sure, but with "regular desktop oriented spin" i'm including xfce, lxde, games, kde
21:16:56 * nirik nods.
21:17:14 <brunowolff> games is gnome based, but yes the others may have common ground that would justify having three ks that
21:17:25 <brunowolff> could be used to base a live image off of.
21:17:59 <kanarip> biertie, ping again
21:18:12 <brunowolff> Even if that is true, it may make sense to have the live base ks include the live minimal ks.
21:18:29 <kanarip> brunowolff, if there's nothing mutually exclusive, that's the idea
21:18:49 <brunowolff> Ok. That seems like a reasonable plan.
21:18:58 <kanarip> if we need to share the scripts in %post, there's always the inclusion of snippets that can do that kinda thing
21:19:13 <nirik> is that something to target for this cycle? or just keep them seperate for now and merge in next?
21:19:16 <kanarip> so that the minimal and base really only uniquely define a package set, basically
21:19:38 <kanarip> nirik, i'd say it would need to be completed before beta in any case, no?
21:19:55 <nirik> yeah, I guess it just depends on how hard it is. :)
21:19:56 <brunowolff> It's kinda late to be doing merging now. Someone would have about a week to do it.
21:20:05 <kanarip> but it does not necessarily need to be completed before feature freeze
21:20:22 <kanarip> brunowolff, that's before alpha freeze, no?
21:20:45 <kanarip> this schedule needs a google calendar version... :/
21:21:01 <brunowolff> We probably want it testable in alpha.
21:21:07 <huff> well creating it is one thing then moving all the existing spins to it is another
21:21:34 <brunowolff> Beta is pretty close to release and I think it's a bit risky to be testing a new foundation for spins at that time.
21:21:47 * sdziallas hollers, has to read backlog
21:22:00 <kanarip> beta is 5 weeks from now
21:22:13 <kanarip> if i interpret https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/Schedule correctly
21:22:45 <biertie> srry, I'm at a real life meeting kanarip
21:22:48 <biertie> why do you need me?
21:22:49 <kanarip> am i reading that correctly?
21:23:19 <kanarip> biertie, ok, i was wondering if you wanted to attend the meeting that's all
21:23:35 <biertie> 3 weeks I think?
21:23:36 <kanarip> biertie, can you still lurk and be called should we really need you for something?
21:24:05 <biertie> no, I have to leave
21:24:20 <kanarip> I'm reading, alpha freeze takes 2 weeks, and alpha public testing takes 3 weeks, that's when the beta freeze hits
21:24:31 <biertie> ach, beta
21:24:31 <biertie> srry
21:24:34 <biertie> my mistake
21:24:40 <kanarip> biertie, ok, have fun!
21:25:13 <biertie> hehe
21:25:45 <biertie> meh, only the ro spin is ready for wrangler
21:26:13 <kanarip> so, shall we take this to vote in two parts? 1) whether to accept as-is, 2) whether to attempt to merge and dissect before beta freeze
21:26:16 <biertie> but I still have to check it, but if you want: send an email to the spin maintainers that I want everything before next meeting
21:26:28 <brunowolff> I thought polecat had a better schedule somewhere. But I think we need to look at when beta comes out.
21:26:31 <biertie> ask me when I'm home then..
21:26:34 <biertie> I have to leave
21:26:35 <biertie> ciao
21:27:00 <kanarip> brunowolff, https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/13/Schedule ?
21:27:07 <brunowolff> Since that is when problems might be found. And there isn't a lot of time between that and the release.
21:27:49 <brunowolff> It looks like 3 weeks between beta release and final freeze.
21:27:49 <kanarip> beta release is april 6th
21:28:08 <kanarip> yes, that's what i'm seeing as well
21:28:15 <kanarip> is it feasible, you think?
21:28:30 <kanarip> or are we going with the two base kickstarts for this release?
21:28:34 <huff> i would be willing to help out here
21:28:59 <kanarip> huff, thanks, what do you think?
21:29:08 <brunowolff> If nothing goes really bad that should be fine. But I am thinking what if there is an error that slips through that
21:29:20 <huff> i think we can try to get this in hopefully by this week, what all is involved mainly just testig right
21:29:20 <brunowolff> hoses beta testing for all of the spins?
21:29:45 <sdziallas> I think there are currently three spins which *might* use the mini.ks.
21:29:46 <brunowolff> In theory that shouldn't happen because we will be testing the nightly spins leading up to the beta.
21:30:06 <sdziallas> Namely, the Design Suite (which doesn't necessarily need to), Sugar and Moblin (which would both love to, I guess).
21:30:08 * sdziallas nods.
21:30:12 <kanarip> huff, yes, when we start mixing and matching, consistency of package sets is key, and the execution of all scripts in %post
21:30:24 <brunowolff> So I think it can be done, but we had better do a good job of testing.
21:31:12 <kanarip> ok, so let's fold this back into one vote
21:31:55 <kanarip> who's in favor of folding back the minimal and base kickstart onto as little duplication of kickstart snippets as possible, before alpha freeze in 7 days from now?
21:32:23 * nirik is also concerened with the time, but if you think it can be done, +1
21:32:25 <brunowolff> I am in favor of someone else doing it.
21:32:28 <huff> +1
21:32:34 <kanarip> +1
21:32:42 <kanarip> huff, you have that kind of time on your hands?
21:32:47 <nirik> what would that mean for kde/gnome/games? that they have to add more stuff to get to where they are now?
21:32:58 <huff> I think I can devote some time to this effort this week
21:32:59 <kanarip> huff, are you going to need help in any way? do the nightly composes help?
21:33:07 <huff> but not sure how may spins I can test
21:33:10 <huff> many
21:33:18 <brunowolff> Games uses gnome. So just one fix is needed there.
21:33:19 <kanarip> nirik, strip less stuff from the base ks, most preferably
21:33:25 <huff> kanarip: yea probably
21:34:11 <huff> we need a list of spins and list of the common elements we can strip out
21:34:27 <kanarip> so we're saying these two base kickstarts are going to end up exactly like i described, 1) for minimal, and 2) as a basis for regular desktop oriented spins
21:34:27 <huff> then just add included to those than need it
21:34:48 <brunowolff> I think for prealpha freeze you mostly want to make sure the spins still build. We can test the spins
21:35:21 <kanarip> hmm, how come there's only one spin in accepted for fedora 13 category?
21:35:26 <brunowolff> themselves between the freeze and alpha. (Though at least a couple should probably be tested before
21:35:31 <brunowolff> committing the changes.)
21:35:32 <huff> are we going to use peters min.ks form the moblin spin as the starting point
21:35:48 <kanarip> huff, yes
21:35:59 <brunowolff> I don't think we voted on the recurring spins.
21:36:12 <kanarip> brunowolff, i'm going to fix that right now then
21:36:32 <kanarip> #agreed huff to attempt folding back the minimal and base ks onto as little duplication as possible
21:36:43 <kanarip> #topic Spins voting round #1
21:37:06 <kanarip> I just moved XFCE to Spins_Fedora_13 for nirik ;-)
21:37:16 <nirik> thanks.
21:37:21 <kanarip> #topic Haskell Spin
21:37:30 <brunowolff> Games is essentially unchanged. With lzma/squashfs not being a feature for F13, it won't change.
21:37:43 <kanarip> #link http://petersen.fedorapeople.org/fedora-livedvd-haskell.ks
21:38:03 <brunowolff> (I might still add the 3d chess program and anything blocked for legal reasons would come out.)
21:38:34 <kanarip> does anyone have anything to say about the Haskell spin?
21:39:14 <nirik> I thought we already approved that one...
21:39:23 <nirik> last meeting? but my memory might be going.
21:39:33 <kanarip> right, it wasn't in the correct category then
21:39:36 <kanarip> moving on...
21:39:40 <kanarip> #topic Games Spin
21:39:41 <kanarip> +1
21:39:45 <sdziallas> +1
21:39:45 <kanarip> do'h ;-)
21:39:50 <brunowolff> +1
21:40:14 <kanarip> nirik, did the board still have anything to say about the haskell spin btw?
21:40:26 <kanarip> nirik, did it even aim for full release or just trademark approval?
21:40:54 <sdziallas> kanarip: I didn't ask the board for approval on the haskell spin because it wasn't in the ready-for-board category and we weren't sure whether it really needed it (if I recall correctly)
21:41:03 <kanarip> #topic AOS Spin
21:41:12 <nirik> +1 for games.
21:41:29 <huff> kanarip: i will update the wiki for aos this week and submit
21:41:37 <huff> for f13 i will just make it a livecd
21:41:44 <huff> utlizing the min.ks
21:41:46 <kanarip> sdziallas, OK, i'm not sure what's going to happen with the Haskell spin then... let's ask the maintainer for the intentions
21:42:00 <kanarip> #action kanarip to verify with Jens Petersen what's with the Haskell spin
21:42:12 <kanarip> huff, approved ;-)
21:42:35 <kanarip> i'm sorry if the meeting is a bit messy, i'm trying to rush i know
21:42:45 <sdziallas> kanarip: I *think* they just want it in our GIT repo. (re: haskell)
21:43:06 <kanarip> sdziallas, perfect, i'll verify nonetheless to make sure it doesn't pull a LXDE thing
21:43:18 <sdziallas> cool!
21:43:26 <kanarip> so who's got something negative to say about the AOS spin while huff is with us? ;-)
21:43:32 <huff> haha
21:43:34 * kanarip doesn't
21:43:37 <kanarip> +1 for AOS
21:43:41 <huff> +1
21:43:49 <sdziallas> +1
21:44:25 * nirik hasn't seen the AOS ks
21:44:27 <kanarip> one more vote please, nirik? brunowolff?
21:44:40 * kanarip needs simple majority
21:45:00 <brunowolff> +0 for now (as I can't find the spin page)
21:45:10 <kanarip> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/AOS_Spin
21:45:12 <huff> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/AOS_Spin
21:45:17 <kanarip> brunowolff, its' recurring as well
21:45:39 <kanarip> #agreed AOS Spin for Fedora 13
21:45:48 <kanarip> abstain makes the rest of us a simple majority, weeeeeeee!
21:45:56 <kanarip> #topic BrOffice.org Spin
21:45:59 <kanarip> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BrOffice.org_Spin
21:46:07 <kanarip> again, recurring
21:46:14 <kanarip> not many changes to the kickstart either
21:46:24 <kanarip> I say +1
21:46:43 * sdziallas too. +1
21:48:12 <kanarip> am i lagging?
21:48:26 <nirik> +1 for broffice.
21:48:38 <brunowolff> +1
21:48:45 <kanarip> weee!
21:48:51 <kanarip> #agreed BrOffice.org for Fedora 13
21:48:58 <kanarip> #topic Electronic Lab
21:49:03 <kanarip> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ElectronicLab_Spin
21:49:06 <kanarip> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ElectronicLab_Spin
21:49:12 <kanarip> again, recurring
21:49:14 <sdziallas> certainly +1 :)
21:49:21 <kanarip> again, not many changes to the kickstart either
21:49:23 <kanarip> i say +1
21:49:31 <nirik> yeah, has been pretty stable for a while...
21:49:43 <kanarip> that's another wrap then
21:49:52 <kanarip> #agreed Electronic Lab Spin for Fedora 13
21:50:28 * kanarip looking through the queues
21:50:47 <kanarip> we're looking to include those too: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Spins_Ready_For_Board
21:50:53 <brunowolff> The QA Test day spin ks hasn't changed.
21:51:20 <brunowolff> This one isn't published, just used for test days.
21:51:25 <kanarip> right, there's one more
21:51:30 <kanarip> #topic QA Test day spin
21:51:39 <kanarip> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA_Test_Day_Spin
21:51:43 <kanarip> again, recurring
21:51:52 <kanarip> again, not many changes to the kickstart file (~0)
21:51:55 <kanarip> i say +1
21:52:04 <sdziallas> +1.
21:52:05 <brunowolff> I'll make changes if asked, but QA hasn't asked yet foir F13.
21:52:09 <nirik> yeah... I think there might need to be a change there, but will be minor.
21:52:09 <brunowolff> +1
21:52:11 <nirik> +1
21:52:35 <kanarip> ok let's take a few seconds to look at these pages
21:52:50 <kanarip> For Fedora 12, we had 8 spins: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Spins_Fedora_12
21:53:14 <kanarip> For Fedora 13, we have 7 approved and all ready and set to go: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Spins_Fedora_13
21:53:26 <kanarip> and 3 more pending board approval https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Spins_Ready_For_Board
21:53:37 <nirik> yep.
21:53:49 <kanarip> a grand total of 10 (!) potentially for Fedora 13, not including haskell
21:53:52 <sdziallas> kanarip: the board approval is there, if I recall correctly.
21:53:53 <nirik> oh, design is approved
21:54:00 <kanarip> (which i'll move to approved now too)
21:54:02 <nirik> the other 2 are pending
21:54:08 <kanarip> i'll move design too
21:54:13 <nirik> because 'sugar' and 'moblin' need to be checked.
21:54:25 <nirik> for trademark, etc... to make sure we can use that in the name.
21:54:33 * sdziallas nods. I think I saw an "approved" on the sugar one, but might be wrong.
21:55:22 <sdziallas> anyway, I've been talking to stickster about the sugar one and Peter has about the moblin one, so we can just check after the next board meeting, I guess.
21:55:32 <nirik> http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/advisory-board/2010-January/007869.html
21:56:01 <sdziallas> nirik: right, there it is.
21:56:14 <stickster> sdziallas: There was an approval on SoaS, yes
21:56:22 <sdziallas> stickster: awesome!
21:56:45 <kanarip> awesome, there we go
21:57:25 <kanarip> here's our list ladies and gentlemen: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Spins_Fedora_13
21:57:33 <kanarip> and possibly two more to be included
21:57:54 <huff> there may be one more: OVirt_Node spin
21:57:58 <huff> Which I think we want to rename to Hypervisor node or something
21:58:06 <sdziallas> kanarip: am I allowed to throw the design & sugar one into the repos?
21:58:14 <huff> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ovirt_Node_Spin
21:58:36 <kanarip> sdziallas, sugar, yes in the base right next to kde and desktop and xfce if you will
21:58:45 <kanarip> sdziallas, design you can put in custom/ for now, please
21:58:48 * nirik can enable nightlys for any that are in git.
21:58:53 <kanarip> (while it doesn't have trademark approval yet)
21:59:06 <sdziallas> kanarip: design has trademark approval already?
21:59:21 <kanarip> has it?
21:59:24 <sdziallas> http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/advisory-board/2010-January/007869.html
21:59:35 <sdziallas> nirik: that'd be awesome!
21:59:44 <kanarip> sdziallas, you're right ;-)
21:59:52 <sdziallas> (I guess I'd need to change those spins back to the live-base.ks until we get the mini.ks in, right?)
21:59:56 <kanarip> sdziallas, i was mistakenly looking at the section that said Moblin
22:00:07 <sdziallas> kanarip: ah, okay :)
22:00:09 <kanarip> sdziallas, the mini.ks is approved too
22:00:13 <kanarip> sdziallas, it just happened
22:00:17 <huff> how many spins are using the mini.ks
22:00:21 <sdziallas> kanarip: oh, nice! I should be better reading then.
22:00:38 <kanarip> well it's not all pushed yet
22:00:41 <sdziallas> huff: sugar, moblin, and presumably design.
22:01:04 <sdziallas> (the latter one mostly to get us down to cd-size, if possible)
22:01:58 <kanarip> ok, that's a wrap
22:02:02 <kanarip> damn that was fast
22:02:07 <kanarip> ugly, messy, but fast
22:02:12 <kanarip> #topic Open Floor
22:02:23 <nirik> I have one item
22:02:50 <nirik> since we are branching out f13 earlier this cycle due to the no frozen rawhide stuff.
22:03:03 <nirik> do we make nightly spins for just the f13 branch until it's released?
22:03:07 <nirik> or rawhide and f13?
22:03:09 <nirik> or just rawhide?
22:03:21 <sdziallas> nirik: good point!
22:03:41 <kanarip> i'd say f13 only as that's exactly what we're targetting with the nightly composes
22:04:03 <nirik> that would allow for more testing...
22:04:07 <kanarip> if, though, we have sufficient resources to also compose rawhide... well...
22:04:11 <nirik> but rawhide will loose some.
22:04:23 <kanarip> but i wouldn't want us to lose focus
22:04:46 <nirik> yeah, both would mean some testers will go to rawhide when we want them to test f13.
22:04:54 <kanarip> right
22:05:07 <kanarip> we're branching off at feature freeze, right?
22:05:59 <nirik> yeah.
22:06:07 <kanarip> which is tomorrow, no?
22:06:17 <nirik> no.
22:06:39 <kanarip> ohw wait that's the submission deadline
22:06:43 <nirik> yeah.
22:06:46 <nirik> feb 9th
22:06:49 <kanarip> Feb  9 2010
22:06:49 <nirik> for feature freeze
22:07:08 <kanarip> that gives us a little more slack
22:07:24 <nirik> we don't have to decide right now.
22:07:29 <kanarip> how about we first go for F-13 only
22:07:32 <nirik> just bringing up the question.
22:07:44 <kanarip> then later on in the alpha/beta/rc thing we can always re-enable rawhide, no?
22:07:52 <brunowolff> I think f13 makes more sense, since that's what we plan to release with.
22:08:01 <nirik> sure, but will need more space/another compose machine probibly.
22:08:14 <kanarip> nirik, that's a concern for another day indeed ;-)
22:08:15 <brunowolff> Spin owners can to their own adhoc testing if they need to for something in rawhide.
22:08:36 <kanarip> nirik, there's a koji command to compose spins... there's a couple of builders for you ;-)
22:08:43 <nirik> but also with no rawhide images, some people have been using the rawhide spins to install.
22:08:59 <nirik> well, thats being worked on I know, but it's not ready yet I don't think.
22:09:00 <kanarip> it needs a flattened kickstart though, i believe
22:09:37 <brunowolff> I think the rawhide proposal was that you install the latest release (even for a release that hasn't been released) and
22:09:43 <kanarip> if these people think that composing rawhide spins is worth the effort then they should be part of the SIG ;-)
22:09:45 <brunowolff> then yum upgrade to rawhide.
22:10:32 <nirik> sure, we could always go with f13 and see who yells. ;)
22:10:43 <kanarip> ok
22:10:48 <kanarip> can we wrap this up then?
22:10:52 * kanarip is getting thirsty
22:11:08 * kanarip motions to close the meeting
22:11:30 <huff> any comments on the OVirt_Node spin.....
22:11:34 <huff> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ovirt_Node_Spin
22:11:36 <huff> 1) rename to Hypervisor node
22:11:37 <huff> 2) rework to use the min.ks
22:11:53 <huff> if no ill work o it this week and submit for aproval
22:12:05 <huff> The idea is:
22:12:05 <huff> AOS = min to run as virtual guest
22:12:06 <huff> Hypervisor/ovirt node = min to act as host to run virtual guests on
22:13:15 <nirik> cool.
22:13:23 * nirik will be happy to see it composed like any other spin.
22:13:32 <kanarip> huff, yeah, i'm still seeing "rpm -e --nodeps"
22:13:51 <huff> kanarip: yea i will remove alot of that
22:13:58 <huff> make it a little bigger
22:14:10 <huff> but not nasty ripping out
22:14:17 <huff> no
22:14:37 <huff> kanarip: ill work on it and we can dicuss next meeting
22:14:57 <kanarip> huff, ok
22:15:09 * kanarip can't get ksflatten to work on it
22:15:37 <huff> ok ill give it some love
22:16:04 <kanarip> huff, http://pastebin.com/m30e07c8d
22:16:11 <kanarip> that's what i'm getting in f12
22:16:32 <kanarip> [jmeeuwen@ghandalf ovirt-node-image]$ rpm -qv $(rpm -qf $(which ksflatten))
22:16:32 <kanarip> pykickstart-1.64-1.fc12.noarch
22:16:51 <kanarip> haha, i could have done rpm -qvf $(which ksflatten)
22:17:12 * kanarip closes the meeting in 5 then
22:18:19 * kanarip closes the meeting in 432 then
22:18:27 <kanarip> #endmeeting