02:01:09 #startmeeting 02:01:09 Meeting started Wed Jan 20 02:01:09 2010 UTC. The chair is StabbyMc. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 02:01:09 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 02:01:14 .fas jfsaucier 02:01:15 djf_jeff: jfsaucier 'Jean-Francois Saucier' 02:01:18 .fas vaioof 02:01:19 VileGent: jbwillia 'Ben Williams' 02:01:21 .fas crossbytes 02:01:22 #topic Fedora North America semi-monthly meeting 02:01:23 crossbytes: crossbytes 'Kevin Higgins' 02:01:23 .fas ericlake 02:01:25 .fas makfinsky 02:01:26 .fas threethirty 02:01:26 Running in the door... 02:01:26 etank: etank 'Eric Lake' 02:01:27 .fas Ac-town 02:01:30 makfinsky: makfinsky '' 02:01:33 .fas smcbrien 02:01:34 threethirty: threethirty 'Justin O'Brien' 02:01:37 Ac-town: actown 'Derrick Dymock' 02:01:41 StabbyMc: smcbrien '' 02:01:57 poor zodbot can't keep up 02:02:25 yep 02:02:49 anyone else for roll-call? 02:02:59 .fas ke4qqq 02:02:59 ke4qqq: ke4qqq 'David Nalley' 02:02:59 * inode0 boycotts roll-call 02:03:11 right here. cwtucker 'Chris Tucker' 02:03:12 .fas inode0 02:03:14 how do u roll call again? 02:03:16 StabbyMc: inode0 'John T. Rose' 02:03:20 i say we do it again and see if we can ddos zodbot 02:03:27 Feeling ornery today, huh, inode0? 02:03:39 * inode0 just thinks this is a waste of time :) 02:03:39 xm4nfedoralinux here. 02:04:08 Ok so those of you who want to play along at home, here's the agenda 02:04:13 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Ambassadors_2010-1-19 02:04:36 #topic Fedora North America semi-montly meeting ANNOUNCEMENTS 02:04:51 For all those waiting for tickets from me shipments to everyone went out yesterday 02:04:55 .fas rrix 02:04:56 rrix: rrix 'Ryan Rix' 02:05:47 inode0: great 02:05:52 inode0: am I getting a package? 02:05:57 +1 02:05:58 maybe some F12 media? 02:06:03 StabbyMc: not from me 02:06:19 ke4qqq: am I getting a package, maybe some F12 media? ;-) 02:06:39 it will be leaving me tomorrow 02:06:58 yea! :-) 02:06:59 * ke4qqq received it yesterday evening 02:07:15 Other announcements 02:07:16 ? 02:07:31 meh, low battery 02:07:45 #topic Fedora North America semi-montly meeting EVENTS 02:08:14 frields put up a page on wiki re: summit attendees. 02:08:49 stickster_afk around here 02:09:01 If anyone's attending and can man booth or is willing to help with fedora breakouts, add your name. 02:09:31 .fas Arsenick 02:09:32 Arsenick: arsenick 'René Jr Purcell' 02:10:04 .fas lcameron 02:10:05 lcameron: lcameron 'Leigh Cameron' 02:10:09 I notice a couple of items on the agenda in the events section. 02:10:17 +1 me too 02:10:22 Who wanted to talk about Fedora Ambassador Day Proposal? 02:10:27 StabbyMc: those are all mine 02:10:33 * lcameron is late... 02:10:38 * StabbyMc yeilds the floor to inode0 02:10:44 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAD_NA_2010 02:11:15 Initial proposal for the Fedora Ambassador Day(s) for NA this year 02:11:33 woa... Iowa. 02:11:38 If anyone wants to propose alternate dates/locations feel free to do that 02:11:49 makfinsky: nice central location :) 02:12:09 inode0: what's the close airport and how close is it? 02:12:10 Cool, that's one of the few states I have yet to visit. 02:12:34 DSM is 30 miles away, there is a shuttle and I can be a shuttle too 02:12:43 at map 02:13:03 * StabbyMc looking at delta.com 02:13:12 Here is what I'd like to suggest 02:13:47 If there are big problems or desires for a different place/time it would be nice to get that on the table soon 02:14:24 If there aren't objections by the next FAmNA meeting I'll proceed with locking down commitments for the resources needed locally 02:14:32 inode0: it's awfully close to SELF 02:14:38 datewise 02:14:50 but there may not be a better time 02:14:56 just noting it, not really objecting 02:15:27 * inode0 doesn't see SELF on the Fedora Events page and doesn't know when it is 02:15:48 http://southeastlinuxfest.org 02:15:50 6/10 - 6/14 02:16:40 that is almost 3 weeks later, so not terrible 02:16:48 I'm in for FAD. 02:17:13 Ok, well, just think about it until our next meeting please 02:17:19 Yeah, that doesn't seem too close. 02:17:30 And add work items to the wiki page - we need an agenda 02:17:36 Anyone for Texas LinuxFest? 02:18:20 xm4nfedoralinux, the more the better 02:18:21 StabbyMc: you lost your job! 02:18:26 cwtucker, ?? 02:18:40 xm4nfedoralinux: lets hold that to the end of the events on the agenda :-) 02:18:56 Well it is next up 02:19:09 * StabbyMc needs VileGent to fire him. 02:19:22 *again* 02:19:34 Anything else about the possible FAD before going on? We will have budget to help people get to it. 02:19:34 sorry i'm late...and i might suffer some network problems... 02:20:15 TLF then ... 02:20:15 inode0: what is the purpose of a Fedora Ambassador Day? 02:20:36 inode0, i dont guess that regions ambassador wants a fedora presence at SELF 02:20:58 VileGent: can you rephrase that for me? 02:21:03 Texas indeed 02:21:03 VileGent: yes, sorry internet issues for a min 02:21:09 oh, not on the events page 02:21:17 exactly 02:21:35 inode0: what is the purpose of a Fedora Ambassador Day? 02:21:39 I'm sure it just isn't there yet 02:21:51 so we are still on the events before Texas Linux Fest? 02:22:03 xm4nfedoralinux: yes, hold on 02:22:15 ok. brb 02:22:46 StabbyMc: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAD_EMEA_2009 <- look at that for an idea 02:23:29 basically to plan ambassador activities/projects, give and get feedback to/from Red Hat, etc. 02:24:26 Hmm, cake break is on the agenda for fad emea 2009. Can we have one of those? 02:24:28 Ok, the wiki is slow, I'll look at it after the meeting. 02:24:47 ok, we can come back to it later during open floor 02:24:58 makfinsky: in America we only have cookie breaks. 02:25:01 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Texas:LinuxFest_2010 02:25:08 makfinsky: the cake is a lie 02:25:28 We are going to have a nice presence at the 1st Texas Linux Fest I hope 02:25:54 Anyone interested should sign up and chat with me or David Duncan (davdunc) about helping 02:26:10 Definitely interested, and will be involved 02:26:17 CFP is in progress now so if you plan to go please consider proposing a talk 02:27:00 I have set aside 400 pieces of F12 media to ship to TLF pending talking to David about the appropriateness of that number 02:28:08 We need the ground troops to tell us what is needed in terms of other swag and booth help 02:28:14 Expecting a fairly large turnout 02:28:16 We will definitely have a booth 02:28:59 is a event box or banners needed 02:29:12 on a tangent to TLF I'd like to encourage people there to nose around and make as many contacts as possible with a site for a future FUDCon in mind :) 02:29:22 I will get with David and see where/what he needs me to do to help him 02:30:00 Austin always comes up as a place for FUDCon and the one thing that seems to hold it back is not having a suitable site for the event itself 02:30:51 shall we move on? 02:31:10 I think we'll do what is needed to make TLF a success for Fedora 02:31:23 VileGent: probably 02:31:47 I will get with you later inode0 to discuss in more detail with you 02:31:56 great, thanks cwtucker 02:32:24 "Expanding reach of Fedora into new event areas - target #1 Design" 02:32:41 This I hope isn't controversial 02:33:25 What I'd like to get though is basic agreement about whether we (FAmNA) should be sponsoring events outside our normal comfort zone 02:34:00 Say the Design team has a conference where the focus is design 02:34:43 They can showcase how the design team in Fedora works and learn from others, possibly connect with like minded people and get new contributors, etc. 02:34:59 Can we sponsor those events? I think we should try. 02:35:06 I like the idea. 02:35:06 that could be tied to talks at said events 02:35:18 I was about to mention mizmo, speaking of which. 02:35:38 let's look at SXSW as an example of an event that we would not traditionally attend or sponsor 02:35:46 sup 02:35:55 I am so ecited to go to Texas Linux fest! 02:35:56 SXSW = South by South West the music fest? 02:36:10 mizmo: don't blow it, I'm trying to get FAmNA to sponsor design conferences :) 02:36:30 StabbyMc: yes, but it is more than music 02:36:31 inode0: good point, South By would be a good place to show off what we (royal we) do 02:36:53 it is a bunch of events and one of the big ones is the interactive part 02:36:58 StabbyMc: its expanded to many other things but yes its *that* sxsw 02:37:09 http://sxsw.com/interactive 02:37:30 this would be interesting to designers, right mizmo? 02:37:53 inode0: absolutely 02:38:05 anthro-diana: ping if you are available just chime in here 02:38:22 it would be a good opportunity to present a case for free software to the design community 02:38:28 which we have not done much of 02:38:28 There is a very large design faction and even a bit of a design tract at the conference 02:38:50 so we could potentially garner talented capable design contributors?? 02:38:56 I as a designer have attended for the last 2 years 02:38:58 Yes 02:39:01 so this isn't the normal event for us, but it would promote Fedora, it would benefit Fedora contributors, and it would reach an audience that is likely sympathetic to us but perhaps not aware of us 02:39:14 There is also a large open source contingent there 02:39:26 who is that contingent? 02:39:36 it differs from year to year 02:39:42 not necessary sponsored by any company 02:39:50 we are to spread fedora even to places that we might not be the most comfortable 02:40:05 like macworld :) 02:40:15 There are the usual players as well 02:40:27 actually I think SXSW would be very comfortable with Fedora 02:40:29 but software is definitely a focus 02:40:51 it just isn't a place we normally show up 02:41:21 so has someone been to this SXSW it looks very interesting? 02:41:30 so who is attending TLF 02:42:29 crossbytes: anthro-diana just talked about attending 02:42:38 crossbytes: i havent been their personally but i have follwed it on the net and it looks like a cool event, ive been wanting to go for years 02:42:54 there is also the side event of Bar Camp Austin 02:43:03 ok, there is a second part of this story ... oops 02:43:13 :) 02:43:13 Bar Camp? 02:43:22 As in making drinks? 02:43:46 so there is a barcamp we can have a normal presence at 02:44:16 Is everyone ok with spreading our event wings a bit to try to reach some new audiences? 02:44:22 bar camp, the concept: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_camp 02:44:51 http://barcamp.org/BarCampAustin <- last year's link 02:44:51 inode0: Agreed. 02:45:07 inode0: sounds good 02:45:43 * inode0 asks mizmo and anthro-diana to come up with a plan :) 02:46:13 is there a large Ambassador/design crossover? 02:46:16 and keep eyes open for other opportunities 02:46:45 or would there need to be some ambassadors to help with that? 02:46:52 threethirty: tatica and mizmo 02:47:04 with the timing unfortunately i may not be able to make it :( 02:47:08 ohh an ianweller and herlo 02:47:19 I'll be happy to help out in any way I can 02:47:24 mizmo: things don't always have to happen now, there is next year 02:47:34 * mizmo hopes 02:48:33 * inode0 is happy with the plan to watch for these sorts of opportunities and grab them when we can 02:49:28 inode0: finished with events? 02:49:31 * inode0 gives the floor back but feel free to chat up the barcamp anthro-diana 02:49:47 the barcamp is like the open source version of SXSW 02:49:50 Any other event based items that were not on the agenda? 02:50:02 SXSWi is generally cost prohibitive to many people 02:50:07 I do have something small, but I dont know how much it will affect US people. 02:50:20 so a lot of people just go to Austin to attend the BC that benefits from the overflow of SXSWi 02:50:27 mizmo: and please tell everyone what a lovely place Iowa is for those who haven't been here :) 02:50:45 Ah, I may be attending Shmoocon in dc at the end of Feb. If anyone else is going, hit me up. 02:50:52 anthro-diana: I can see that; travel to Austin around the time of SxSW is also rather prohibitive. 02:51:17 I've found roommates on Twitter just so that I could attend :) 02:51:51 My badge is comped this year, so I am already going, I also have a suite already reserved in hopes to be able to share it with roommates 02:51:56 inode0: Iowa is indeed lovely :) 02:52:20 My first year I slept on the floor of a French Anthropologists apartment! 02:52:35 Myself and MooDoo are working on a UK Fedora site, we felt we could offer something to UK users and contributors by adding a UK based Fedora dedicated site and Freenode channel, we have already setup #fedora-uk but the site is coming soon. I wanted to just inform other ambassadors of this incase an occasion were to arise in the future were such info might be helpful. 02:53:36 antro-diana: kinda like a hacker gathering in Vienna where everyone just crashes wherever they find space? 02:53:49 kinda yeah 02:54:12 anthro-diana: k, now I am with the program :) 02:54:19 #topic Fedora North America semi-montly meeting BUDGET 02:54:24 nullsys: i may be in the UK next month 02:54:39 so again I yeild the floor to inode0 02:54:48 Brilliant mizmo :) 02:55:44 sorry stepped away 02:56:05 no worries, so we need a prioratized swag list. 02:56:11 ok 02:56:19 I don't know what others think, but I'm just going to throw this out there. 02:56:22 (1) Tee Shirts 02:56:33 we are likely to have some end of year opportunities for acquiring swag 02:56:42 (2) Vynl Stickers 02:56:48 what we need and we need it pretty fast is a list of things we want 02:56:49 (3) pens replenishment ? 02:57:13 we need to be able to act on these fairly fast to make orders, so we need our ducks in a row 02:57:58 so I'd like a list of things we want and have them ordered roughly by how much we want them and how easy it is for us to get them 02:58:25 t-shirts is a done deal, we have some details to work out still but we will order more t-shirts this quarter 02:58:36 Well anything we've done before is easy to re-order. 02:58:53 What do our stockpiles of existing items look like, ie, is there something we need to replenish? 02:59:09 case badges?? 02:59:10 I am expecting we will be able to get 300-400 t-shirts 02:59:14 I know vynl stickers would be new. 02:59:23 VileGent: case badges are done and should ship this week. 02:59:24 case badges are already ordered and should ship to us any day now 02:59:31 whoohoo 02:59:43 Clings are done and I should get them this week or next. 02:59:47 listen, 03:00:09 ok, so we have new clings, case badges, and t-shirts covered already 03:00:20 do we need more pens? 03:00:35 If you dont mind me asking: I dont believe we have any kind of merchanise supply for the UK. Could someone talk to me about this at some point? I feel the UK could benefit from it. 03:00:36 they're easy and relatively in expensive for vast quantities. 03:00:46 I am not sure about the pen supply but I'm guessing we likely still have more than 1,000 of them 03:01:10 nullsys: ping me in #fedora-ambassadors later and I'd be happy to 03:01:17 nullsys: lets talk after the meeting 03:01:25 thanks both of you 03:01:29 We ordered 3K like 6 months ago, so probably ok there until next quarter'ish. 03:02:01 StabbyMc: I have close to 500, Brian has the left-overs from the Summit which was a substantial number 03:02:02 If stickers are on the list, I can start working on those next week. 03:02:21 stabby voice stickers?? 03:02:35 voice stickers? 03:02:38 Stickers are always wanted so I would put that high on the list if we have a place we can get them 03:02:47 VileGent: yes 03:02:53 +1000 03:03:01 StabbyMc: the BF style laptop stickers 03:03:10 +1 for BF style laptop stickers 03:03:16 +1 03:03:18 my current laptop is unadorned :( 03:03:20 +1 03:03:45 +1 03:03:49 i have a new laptop shipping tomorrow i need stickers :) 03:04:01 we are pretty much out of buttons which are cheap and can go on the list for cleanup duty 03:04:54 I am having problems, with parents. 03:05:31 xm4nfedoralinux: these meetings are logged and posted so you might want to just excuse yourself when necessary 03:06:18 sorry, it was meant for another chat. 03:06:51 so anything else? rrix was looking into baseball hats 03:06:52 BF laptop stickers are like: http://www.decalgirl.com/item.view/33294 ? 03:07:05 I'm just trying to figure out what is wanted. 03:07:15 inode0: the t-shirts are the 2 color ones right. not the splatter shirts. 03:07:32 inode0: Baseball caps would go over very well here in Texas 03:07:35 http://redhat.brandfuelstores.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=37_52 03:08:00 those are 3" stickers iirc, VileGent? 03:08:18 yep 03:08:25 ah BF = Brand Fuel. Now I'm on the same page. 03:09:16 etank: we are thinking about the I (f) Fedora design modified some 03:09:20 They're also die cut, which is why they have the exact Finity logo shape. Die cut tend to be a bit more $pendy, but I'll work on getting something. 03:09:46 possibly with a base white or blue - but a white base allows us about 100 more shirts for the same price 03:10:08 inode0: sounds good 03:10:42 the logo is 3 color iirc, but the splatter was 6 03:10:46 or more 03:11:10 splatters look good but way too expensive 03:11:13 which cost about 50% more 03:11:16 the decalgirl link type stickers are something we are looking at? 03:11:31 or the smaller ones? 03:11:47 mock: just tossing around ideas, open to anything at this point 03:11:56 mock: smaller ones, I mis understood what we were talking about. 03:12:13 inode0: the laptop skins are very nice, actually 03:12:50 laptops come in lots of shapes and sizes, a 3" logo nicely fits in the middle of almost all of them :) 03:13:30 well, keep thinking about this while I digress 03:13:45 Persistent infrastructure items? 03:13:52 do we need anything? 03:13:57 but i think we could setup/make available the fedora design for the skins as people might order 03:14:09 yes, sorry 03:14:10 banners, table skirts, fatheads? 03:14:32 fatheads? 03:15:01 just something that can be reused at events to promote Fedora 03:15:10 etank: big effin stickers 03:15:28 I actually have artwork from mizmo for fatheads 03:15:45 etank: http://www.fathead.com 03:15:58 I paused after reading the agreement they wanted me to sign ... I wanted someone else to say it was ok 03:16:22 I would say table cloths would be an easy one to get knocked out. 03:16:24 wow those are big 03:16:49 And expensive. 03:17:17 $100 for something like that that can be used many times isn't really expensive 03:17:35 Good point. Its durable and easily stored. 03:17:52 inode0: What was in the agreement that made you pause? 03:17:55 StabbyMc, tablecloths are easy go to walmart and get a sheet for $4 03:18:07 we would already have one if I didn't balk when reading the agreement 03:18:11 VileGent: i was thinking one that's logo'ized 03:18:33 makfinsky: giving them wide rights to use what I submitted how they saw fit 03:18:33 inode0: is it something that needs RHT-legal to weigh in on- or is mizmo enough since she is the art-queen 03:18:41 StabbyMc, you are looking @ $120 to $200 each 03:18:50 inode0: Ah... 03:18:57 ke4qqq: im red hat's official appointed logo approver person 03:18:58 VileGent: but this is a wishlist, right? 03:19:06 so I submit the logo, they get to use it however they want ... more or less 03:19:36 Well, isn't most artwork CC licensed? 03:19:39 inode0: phone conversation that gets us around that 03:19:42 makfinsky: not logo 03:19:44 the logo is not CC 03:19:46 I just wasn't personally comfortable with making the decision at the time 03:19:48 Oh. 03:19:55 would they be working with the svg or png? 03:20:07 * inode0 doesn't recall now 03:20:23 and doesn't really recall the details, just the general nature of my concern 03:20:26 if they're not modifying the logo and respect our copyright... 03:20:48 i can have red hat legal take a look at any agreements or anything needed 03:21:13 well when you get to the upload the artwork step a big thing pops up for you to read and agree to ... 03:21:19 ah 03:21:26 thats what we'd need red hat legal to look at 03:21:29 I'll go back later and see if I can copy it 03:22:16 ok, we'll revisit fatheads 03:22:31 infrastructure stuff? 03:23:42 ok, then I'm done although I'm interested in continuing the swag list 03:24:51 I guess we could quote hats, though I think they'd be less bang for the buck than something else. 03:24:56 like tee shirts. 03:25:06 * ke4qqq thought hats were verboten 03:25:13 wasn't rrix quoting those? 03:25:17 despite them being offered for sale 03:25:21 inode0: i'll try to find you later (tomorrow) and chat about skins. i like that idea if there's a possibility. 03:25:28 yes, I was talking about a screenprinted table skirt which looks very professional and really draws attention 03:25:32 why are they verboten? 03:26:03 ke4qqq: BF sells Fedora hats so I can't imagine we can't give them away 03:26:40 cwtucker: RHT doesnt want us possibly confusing their trademark 03:26:52 BF also violates trademark policies wrt logo 03:27:15 doesn't mean we can or should do it - I'd at least like someone to bless it - like mizmo or spevack 03:27:18 before we proceed 03:27:27 anyway, I don't think their is any prohibition against hats as swag 03:27:48 we already have a precedent for fedora baseball caps 03:28:21 It's a shame my wife says I don't look good wearing ball caps - says I have a big head. 03:28:22 im happy to bring any vendor agreements to RH legal to approve and help get that stuff taken care of so you folks can order stuff 03:28:36 you should see my hat, it's a panda hat 03:28:39 inode0: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/Conduct#Do_not_wear_a_big_red_hat 03:28:47 I tend to agree that hats aren't very good bang for the buck though 03:29:25 inode0: I am interested in following up on this hat issue 03:29:48 * etank wouldn't mind having a fedora hat 03:29:59 I agree it's silly - but still, someone somewhere thought it was important many years ago. Though we do have precedent. 03:30:11 ke4qqq: I think that article discusses why one shouldn't wear a RED HAT when representing Fedora. 03:30:19 * mock needs to go for now and will follow up with the transcripts. 03:30:29 it goes farther, but really 03:30:45 im pretty sure the main concern is with red hats, or fedoras of any color 03:30:46 Red Hat sells Fedora baseball hats 03:30:57 StabbyMc: it says: Our founding organization and main sponsor, Red Hat, has specifically requested that we not connect hats, red in color or otherwise, to the Fedora Project. Please do not use a hat, whether it's a fedora or any other type of hat, in any presentation of Fedora or to represent the Fedora Project in any way. 03:31:01 im very confident fedora baseball hats, as long s they are not red, are fine 03:31:19 mizmo: what about pink, covered in Hello Kitty hats? 03:31:25 ke4qqq: i definitely see where that owrding could cause concern 03:31:39 StabbyMc: lol i need to show you my panda hat tomorrow 03:31:48 StabbyMc: I just think it would be nice to have Fedora hats for LUGs here, the other people wear them with other Distro names on them 03:31:57 I would love to see panda hat. :) 03:32:24 cwtucker: I understand, but if the choice is ordering 100 hats of 3000 stickers, the stickers will likely win. 03:32:25 mizmo: don't necessarily agree with it, but it seems pretty staunch in it's hat stance. I'd happily see it reformed 03:32:53 StabbyMc: no question there. Just a small wish list 03:32:57 keeps your eyes closed at FUDCon if you don't want to see hats :) 03:33:08 ke4qqq: ill get in contact with the legal folks and verify the ball caps are okay, and try to get that wording changed 03:33:26 mizmo: awesome 03:33:37 but the real problem with hats is they cost $10 each 03:33:49 visors are a little cheaper 03:33:57 IIRC that was put up because people representing Fedora were showing up places in Red RedHat Fedoras, which confused the independence or quasi-independence of Fedora. 03:34:11 visors aren't as cool though 03:34:22 imho 03:34:27 etank 8 of 10 NFL coaches disagree! 03:34:40 bah what do they know :) 03:34:46 I like visors too, but either way this is an expensive item 03:34:57 Feel free to go off and round up quotes 03:35:10 hats are more repeat-advertisement than stickers 03:35:20 the problem is its more of a gamble whether or not the person you give the hat to will actually wear it around 03:35:22 inode0: Cost is higher, although, I think a small quantity could be more repetitve here 03:35:52 if we can't get hundreds of them we can't do much with them to be honest 03:35:53 mizmo that is just it at events to get hats or tshirts they have to put them on right then 03:35:57 hats are good for a smaller group who are technically knowledgable, i think stickers are better for a wider audience who may not be as technical 03:36:03 well as I pointed out, we are talking about a wish list, so lets see what it shakes out ot. 03:36:21