05:05:37 <juhp> #startmeeting i18n
05:05:38 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Feb  2 05:05:37 2010 UTC.  The chair is juhp. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
05:05:40 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
05:05:47 <juhp> sorry for late start...
05:06:01 <juhp> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/I18N/Meetings/2010-02-02
05:06:14 <juhp> welcome to the i18n meeting
05:07:20 <juhp> hmm
05:07:49 <juhp> who's here?
05:09:04 <yshao> yshao is here
05:09:17 <juhp> hi :)
05:09:33 <juhp> hmm P\Uffffffff\Uffffffff that's an interesting nick
05:09:43 <paragan> hi
05:11:03 * juhp goes looking for more people
05:11:25 <dychen_> hi
05:12:00 <yshao> juhp, 3 other guys can't sent any message
05:12:12 <yshao> juhp, have you set anything?
05:12:21 <juhp> me?  no :)
05:12:35 <epico_laptop> hi
05:13:28 <yshao> oh epico_laptop can
05:15:21 <juhp> let's get started
05:15:34 <juhp> just looking at the action items from the last meeting
05:15:55 <juhp> - juhp,phuang,tagoh: to review fangq's fontconfig proposal
05:15:55 <juhp> - juhp to update Features/YumLangpacksPlugin
05:16:24 <juhp> I think tagoh posted comment on the upstream bug
05:17:06 <epico_laptop> phuang and jni still check the freenode registered account.
05:18:54 <paragan> naveen_laptop, hi]
05:19:07 <juhp> hmm any channel admins around?
05:20:18 <nirik> juhp: what are you looking for?
05:20:23 <dychen_> juhp: or we go fedora-i18n instead?
05:20:42 <nirik> oh, unidentified people? I can fix that.
05:21:49 <nirik> try now? ;)
05:21:53 <phuang> test
05:21:56 <nkumar> test
05:21:57 <jni> hi
05:21:58 <pravins> test
05:22:04 <paragan> test
05:22:09 <epico_laptop> hi
05:22:34 <phuang> fedora-devel, vbox has problem too
05:22:54 <juhp> okay
05:23:02 <juhp> nirik: thank you
05:23:30 <nirik> no problem. I am happy to help anyone register to avoid the issue... see me in a private message or in #fedora-admin.
05:23:54 <juhp> nirik: too kind - people should be... :)
05:24:08 <juhp> okay phew let's get started
05:24:14 <xm4nfedoralinux> ok
05:25:25 <juhp> tagoh: I am still a little unclear where we stand on 65-nonlatin
05:25:38 <juhp> right now I am feeling any change is better than none...
05:27:33 <juhp> tagoh3: ?
05:27:44 <tagoh3> juhp: haven't yet tried what fangq suggested to avoid the situation on the bad 65-nonlatin, but using prepend_first isn't the right solution..
05:27:46 <juhp> hmm difficult to get started today
05:27:54 <juhp> okay
05:28:19 <tagoh3> guess it would completely breaks the priority order
05:28:20 <juhp> phuang: did you have a look?
05:28:27 <juhp> hmm
05:28:31 <juhp> I see
05:28:33 <phuang> I think it can work
05:28:44 <juhp> I didn't have time to try either yet :(
05:28:54 <juhp> phuang: it can?
05:29:26 <juhp> anyway I talked a little to behdad and he wants to discuss with nim-nim and others too
05:29:43 <juhp> though I *think* nim-nim's position is close to ours
05:30:56 <juhp> ok I think we put it back on the action items for this meeting - hope we can have movement on the bug by next meeting
05:31:00 <juhp> phuang: how?
05:31:20 <phuang> I mean prepend_first could work
05:31:29 <juhp> phuang: oh
05:31:41 <juhp> you better fight it out with tagoh3 then ;)
05:31:54 <tagoh3> and behdad too I think
05:32:12 <phuang> I just mean it can work. :)
05:32:17 <tagoh3> once he ever complained that on indic fonts
05:32:25 <juhp> I updated Features/YumLangpackPlugin ahead of the feature freeze - have not hurt any more - neither on it in comps :)
05:32:34 <juhp> hopefully no news is good news ;)
05:32:49 <juhp> tagoh3: right behdad commented so
05:32:58 <juhp> phuang: ok
05:33:37 <juhp> prepend_first gives the font high priority presumably?
05:34:00 <juhp> over any (later) prepend'?s
05:34:04 <juhp> over any (later) prepend's?
05:35:56 <tagoh3> usually the matched fonts is inserted before the target for prepend, like blahblahblah, <here>, sans-serif. but prepend_first always behaves adding at the beginning IIRC.
05:36:26 <juhp> ah I see
05:36:40 <phuang> aha
05:36:42 <juhp> right
05:36:52 <juhp> guess it is close to my guess
05:37:15 <tagoh3> so if one wants to modify the order, all of the fonts eventually depends on prepend_first then.
05:37:29 <juhp> right
05:37:30 <juhp> hmm
05:37:53 <juhp> so it should not be used afap I guess
05:38:25 <phuang> http://cvs.fedoraproject.org/viewvc/rpms/cjkuni-fonts/F-12/cjkuni-fonts-uming-use-latin.patch?view=markup
05:38:40 <phuang> Here is some changes on uming-font
05:39:01 <phuang> How about use it in Japanese fonts too?
05:39:34 <juhp> #action tagoh,juhp: to review fangq's fontconfig proposal upstream
05:40:35 <juhp> phuang: that is font dependent
05:41:11 <juhp> I think we discussed it before
05:41:11 <phuang> Sorry. I mean use strong prepend, if language contains ja
05:41:19 <juhp> ah
05:41:21 <tagoh3> phuang: btw what a kind of the issue does it fix?
05:41:40 <juhp> what does strong mean actually?
05:42:06 <juhp> is there some documentation somewhere?
05:42:34 <tagoh3> I don't have a positive feeling on strong binding once we saw the default font issue though
05:42:45 <epico_laptop> strong means when you try to choose a font, font family weight is more important than font language.
05:42:59 <juhp> oh
05:43:01 <juhp> hm
05:43:09 <juhp> interesting
05:43:18 <epico_laptop> weak means when you try to choose a font, font family weight is less important than font language.
05:43:33 <epico_laptop> strong/weak is only useful for font family.
05:43:46 <tagoh3> .bug 546490
05:43:52 <zodbot> tagoh3: Bug 546490 fontconfig-2.8.0-1 changes default Monospace font from DejaVu Sans Mono to Baekmuk Gulim - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=546490
05:44:05 <tagoh3> juhp: I think you saw the strong binding on it
05:44:23 <juhp> ah ;)
05:44:32 <phuang> man fonts-conf
05:45:52 <juhp> thanks
05:46:18 <tagoh3> phuang: it would be better bringing it up on fonts list before changing.. because it's not what we have in the template.
05:46:51 <juhp> tagoh3: well it sounds more like a hack than a solution anyway to me :)
05:47:04 <tagoh3> indeed
05:47:24 <phuang> http://people.fedoraproject.org/~phuang/64-ttf-arphic-uming.conf, here is the conf file
05:47:27 <juhp> but I don't really claim to understand strong/weak yet
05:49:02 * juhp wishes his client could separate punctuation from urls
05:50:04 <juhp> phuang: if you think it is a viable solution then yeah best to ask fedora fonts list
05:50:44 <juhp> hmm chromium rendering of xml is, err, "different"...
05:51:10 <phuang> yeah
05:51:23 <epico_laptop> When we try to choose a font Dejavu sans for Chinese locale, use strong binding, it will choose Djvu sans; with weak binding it will choose SongTi or else.
05:51:45 <epico_laptop> s/Djvu/Dejavu/.
05:52:14 <juhp> hm
05:52:35 <tagoh3> epico_laptop: have you tried to get rid of 65-nonlatin.conf?
05:52:57 <epico_laptop> tagoh3: I haven't tried it yet.
05:56:06 <epico_laptop> will try it later.
05:56:46 <juhp> epico_laptop: thanks
05:56:56 <epico_laptop> juhp: welcome. :)
06:00:30 <juhp> still a bit unclear how your strong example helps for CJK unihan though
06:04:48 <juhp> tagoh: just talked a bit to phuang - maybe strong does make sense for CJK?
06:05:01 <juhp> while we have 65-nonlatin anyway
06:05:20 <juhp> let me look at fangq's "65"
06:05:52 <tagoh3> juhp: aha. can't say off hand from me. need to check various scenario to not make any regression.
06:06:50 <tagoh3> anyway better discussing on the list
06:07:07 <juhp> yeah
06:07:19 <juhp> but often nothing happens from list discussion...
06:10:21 <juhp> tagoh3: as long as we have 65-nonlatin it can override CJK as we see so strong might help to override that for the fonts with problems
06:10:32 <juhp> but you are right need to check for regressions
06:10:42 <juhp> but probably only way to do that is to test?
06:11:10 <juhp> hmm I can't display http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=20911
06:11:55 <juhp> in chromium
06:12:36 <juhp> tagoh3: oh hadn't seen you latest comment
06:14:45 <juhp> ok
06:14:51 <juhp> anything else to discuss?
06:16:54 <juhp> f13 feature freeze is now 9 Feb and alpha freeze the week after
06:17:40 <phuang> BTW, today I updated ibus to 1.2.99 in rawhide
06:17:54 <tagoh3> hmm, I wasn't in Cc btw
06:18:16 <phuang> Some APIs were changed
06:18:35 <phuang> I think some ibus engines need update
06:18:57 <juhp> tagoh3:  oh
06:19:02 <juhp> hmm wonder why not
06:19:17 <juhp> phuang: aha
06:19:27 <juhp> is it much work?
06:19:31 <phuang> no
06:19:37 <juhp> ok
06:19:59 <phuang> I have updated some engines
06:21:07 <juhp> phuang: can we get all the engines fixed before alpha?
06:21:17 <phuang> yeah
06:21:45 <phuang> ibus-chewing, ibus-rawcode, ibus-hangul need update
06:23:26 <juhp> ok
06:23:36 <juhp> thanks
06:23:43 <juhp> I think we finish the meeting here....
06:23:49 <juhp> thanks guys
06:24:02 <juhp> #endmeeting