00:02:41 #startmeeting Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings 00:02:42 Meeting started Thu Feb 11 00:02:41 2010 UTC. The chair is sparks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 00:02:44 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 00:02:51 #topic Roll Call 00:02:52 * sparks 00:02:53 * ianweller is sorta kinda not really here 00:03:26 * laubersm is here (for a change) 00:03:27 * stickster 00:03:53 * jjmcd just 00:03:57 * mprice is here 00:04:12 * bcotton is here and cooking 00:04:36 . 00:04:45 #chair jjmcd 00:04:46 Current chairs: jjmcd sparks 00:05:43 * quaid is here 00:05:52 WOOT! 00:06:41 Okay... Let's get started. 00:06:50 #topic Desktop Help Summit 00:07:07 #link http://live.gnome.org/DesktopHelpSummit2010 00:07:16 jjmcd: Are you still planning on going? 00:07:26 yes of course 00:07:30 Great! 00:07:45 I know I will NOT be in Chicago the week before or after... they couldn't get me scheduled there. 00:07:53 I do not know where I will be those weeks though 00:07:54 bummer 00:08:01 laubersm: Handy. Isn't that always how it works? 00:08:13 But at least now I can be pretty confident there won't be a Monday 00:08:14 can we use the power of remote access? 00:08:21 Did we ever figure out a remote solution for shaunm? 00:08:25 If it is not too hard to work out the travel, there is still an option - it is penciled in on my calendar 00:08:35 We've been talking about that 00:08:53 sparks: I mentioned several last week. shaunm didn't follow up with me about anything. 00:08:57 okay 00:09:05 remote options would be good. 00:09:08 shaunm: I suggested several options last meeting, including IRC and Fedora Talk. 00:09:16 shaunm: What would help you move forward with this? 00:09:18 Can someone follow up with shaunm on remoting the Summit? 00:09:30 Do you want me to raise a topic on our docs list, or elsewhere? Or something else? 00:09:51 * sparks didn't see shaunm on the roll call... 00:09:58 stickster: Maybe email directly? 00:10:04 stickster: cool, on list would mean we could contact people who may have the new Events A/V Kit (right?) 00:10:06 * stickster thinks we need to have a specific commitment from shaunm that he can do one or more of some remote access thingy. 00:10:19 +1 00:10:19 quaid: Sure 00:10:24 I think we concluded all we needed was a conference phone 00:10:38 yep 00:10:42 Since there is a Chicago dial in number 00:10:48 "all we need" is sometimes a long way, though 00:10:49 So let's be clear about what you want me to do 00:10:52 #action stickster to work with shaunm on remoting the Desktop Help Summit and make sure everything is squared away. 00:10:57 :) 00:11:00 let's be clearer than that please. 00:11:15 1. See if shaunm is willing to run an IRC session in real time alongside hacking 00:11:20 Yes, make sure we have a conference phone and a phone line where we will be meeting 00:11:27 2. See if shaunm will have access to a conference-able phone. 00:11:41 3. Gobby 00:11:43 4. Wiki 00:11:55 Wiki is not that good for realtime participation, frankly. 00:12:05 Although if it's needed, certainly GNOME has one. 00:12:22 Wiki is great for capturing things to a more semi-permanent state, just not good for r-t collaboration. 00:12:29 wiki is crucial for ongoing status updates to allow for async 00:12:39 or meetbot 00:12:42 every ~1 hour dump gobby docs 00:12:47 well, sort of 00:13:08 We have a lot of options... I'm not sure shaunm has had them all laid out in front of him, though. 00:13:16 this all comes down to, are folks who are present willing to assign documenters, etc. 00:13:23 He liked the idea of using Talk, IIRC. 00:13:31 * stickster wonders if he can #action properly hee 00:13:33 *here 00:13:39 you should be able to 00:13:48 #chair stickster 00:13:48 Current chairs: jjmcd sparks stickster 00:13:51 just to be sure 00:14:00 #action stickster Find out if shaunm or proxy is willing to run IRC in real time during hackfest 00:14:07 #undo 00:14:08 Removing item from minutes: 00:14:10 #undo 00:14:11 Removing item from minutes: 00:14:13 #action stickster Find out if shaunm or proxy is willing to run IRC in real time during hackfest 00:14:22 #action stickster Find out if shaunm will have access to conference phone 00:14:47 * sparks forgets about #undo 00:14:55 #action stickster Find out if shaunm wants to use gobby.fp.o or wiki for other collaboration options 00:15:01 OK, anything else? 00:15:01 * laubersm thinks undo is cool 00:15:30 * sparks thinks that is all... 00:15:46 stickster: did we ever get that recording of conference rooms working? 00:15:51 sparks: Yes 00:16:08 might want to mention that as well 00:16:22 What's not ready is a web app to make it a smoother fit for people who don't know much about it. 00:16:42 #action stickster Provide pointers to shaunm for Fedora Talk recording options 00:17:09 oh, shaun shaunm shaunm 00:17:42 heh... speak his name enough and he appears! 00:17:46 IRC absolutely yes. don't see any problems with that. I need to check if we can get a conference phone 00:17:54 * shaunm puts it on his todo list for tomorrow morning 00:18:03 hehehe 00:18:29 shaunm: We're big Gobby fans around here too 00:18:39 do we want to transcribe to irc real-time? 00:18:54 as close as you can 00:19:04 I will likely only be able to participate remotely 00:19:07 so yes 00:19:08 if >1 person is in IRC and transcribing/note taking 00:19:11 shaunm: At our live sessions, we rotate duty for that around the room per hour or so 00:19:18 it also make good logs 00:19:20 So no one's stuck doing it all day. 00:19:26 what about projecting IRC on the wall so people can more closely participate? 00:19:49 shaunm: Will you have a projector available at the site? 00:20:25 yes 00:20:32 3 - slides, gobby, irc 00:20:34 shaunm: Awesome! 00:20:47 #info shaunm will have a projector at the site, and is checking into the availability of a conference phone. 00:20:56 (so I was told. I should double-check that though) 00:20:59 shaunm: We also have meetbot, too 00:21:32 yes, I'm jealous of your bot's powers. I want him for my gnome meetings 00:21:42 we rent him out on the weekends 00:21:51 heh 00:22:07 shaunm, I think we stole him from some other distro 00:22:24 They're still trying to find him 00:22:44 shhh they may be listening! 00:23:18 shaunm: Why don't we make a meeting room for your event, and I have the ability to invite zodbot there. 00:23:26 Watch out for guys with them funny spirals on their shirt 00:23:54 shaunm: Let's work on this in #fedora-docs so the meeting can proceed 00:24:15 sounds good 00:24:58 Anything for the summit? 00:25:43 Okay, moving on... 00:25:48 #topic Release Notes 00:25:59 jjmcd: What's going on with the RN? 00:26:04 Are you still on schedule? 00:26:22 YEah, but I blew it yesterday so gonna need to post to mktg-list 00:26:31 showed up at the wrong place :-( 00:26:50 heh 00:27:15 Are you getting good input? Should a message be sent out "encouraging" submissions? 00:27:15 I thought it was kinda techhie for mktg, turned out to be fesco 00:27:44 I was surprised to see some input, but real wiki input needs to be solicited a little later 00:27:54 ok 00:27:56 I think they are either in their channel or in meeting-1 00:28:21 Yeah, too late when I figured out they were elsewhere 00:28:31 is this back around to recruiting beat writers and relevant content not in Feature pages? 00:29:14 Yes, we are still over a week from the one pager, so pretty early to start soliciting beat writers 00:31:16 jjmcd: Need anything from me/us? 00:31:25 Not yet 00:32:33 Okay... anyone have anything else on the RNs? 00:32:35 no worries about the content on the one pager? 00:32:46 quantity and importance, mainly 00:33:16 And on F12 marketing mostly took the lead there 00:33:31 Our role was mainly to keep them on point 00:33:38 Alpha RN's are a one pager 00:34:17 Which is why it is so different from beta/GA 00:34:41 * stickster notes that talking points discussion is underway 00:34:53 sparks: When is the publication date for one-page relnotes for Alpha? 00:35:30 stickster: I'd have to look... I forget 00:35:44 Ah 00:35:47 #link http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-13/f-13-docs-tasks.html 00:35:48 jjmcd: Did the schedule ever get published as an .ical? 00:35:49 March 1 00:35:57 TU 00:36:08 poelcat has it on his people site 00:36:11 sparks: They're always published alongside an .ics file 00:36:14 So just over two weeks 00:36:16 #link http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-13/ 00:37:11 * sparks adds that to his calendar. 00:37:18 I knew I had been lost... 00:38:09 So Beats and Feature review doesn't start until 23 Feb 00:38:19 right 00:38:44 Okay, I'm good, now 00:39:44 Next? 00:39:47 Okay, anything else? 00:40:02 Moving right along... 00:40:06 #topic New Guides 00:40:18 Anyone have a new guide they'd like to present/talk about? 00:40:54 No>? 00:41:12 #topic Guide Status 00:41:35 Okay, so last week the big discussion was on the Transifex update 00:41:57 Last I heard there were significant strides to get authentication working. 00:42:14 Now I think they are waiting on data migration, maybe. 00:42:37 The date of doom was added to the ticket, as well. 00:43:46 As soon as it gets up and we get the thumbs up, I'd like for all guide leads to get your latest POTs uploaded so they can start being worked. 00:43:48 sparks: Good idea to post a link to the ticket in the notes here 00:43:54 yes 00:44:06 #link https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/1455 00:44:36 stickster: Thanks, you beat me to it. 00:45:11 Anyone have any needs for their guide? 00:45:58 Starting next week I'll start asking for status reports on each guide so we can make sure of what we'll have for F13. 00:46:29 sparks: Is there a list somewhere of who's responsible for each guide? 00:46:35 * stickster is woefully out of touch there, sorry 00:46:41 Yes... 00:46:52 On the agenda page... scroll down to Guides 00:46:52 #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings 00:47:03 at the bottom 00:47:15 #undo 00:47:15 Removing item from minutes: 00:47:23 #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings#Guides 00:47:27 heh 00:47:29 Okey doke 00:47:38 It's woefully out of date. 00:47:39 see if I help again. 00:47:41 :) 00:47:56 laubersm: Just taking your great link and putting a shine on it. 00:48:29 * laubersm was just using what was already in buffer from searching for the list before stickster even asked... 00:48:35 ya 00:48:43 So that Guide table needs to be updated... 00:48:58 #action sparks to request guide leads update the table before next week 00:49:46 radsy: Is rudi in the office? 00:50:51 sparks, yup 00:51:24 radsy: Can you ask him what the status is of the non-guide translations items in that table, please? 00:51:34 radsy: Or just bonk him on the head and ask him to join us? 00:52:52 Okay, anyone have anything else on this topic? 00:53:18 asking, he couldn't talk even when identifying a new nick 00:53:24 Hmmm 00:53:29 irc client gremlins maybe 00:53:35 maybe 00:53:48 we should try to work on that in #fedora-docs post meeting 00:55:07 Okay, moving on to stickster's topic. 00:55:21 #topic Making docs.fp.o accessible for non-JavaScript equipped browsers 00:55:40 #info To see the problem, install w3m or links, and use it to visit http://docs.fedoraproject.org -- try to select an existing guide 00:55:51 sparks, "Awesome response from L10N for the DocBook stuff; I'm committing upstream but don't know how long it will take to trickle back down; probably not in time for F13" 00:56:02 radsy: Thanks 00:56:16 stickster: Would you like to introduce this? 00:56:36 #info rudi reports Good response from L10n for DocBook stuff... committing upstream but might not make it down in time for F13 00:56:39 sparks: Sure. 00:56:50 "I need to approach some translators to fix some slight changes we made to the Common Content in Publican 1; but all RH-sponsored lanaguages (plus a few others) are in good shape" 00:56:52 * stickster points to zodbot, make him work for us! :-) 00:56:53 sorry 00:57:30 * stickster waits to see if sparks is #info'ing that last bit too 00:57:55 Ok 00:58:07 #info I need to approach some translators to fix some slight changes we made to the Common Content in Publican 1; 00:58:10 but all RH-sponsored lanaguages (plus a few others) are in good shape 00:58:12 sparks, looks like most guide leads need to branch for F13 too... sometime soon so work can start 00:58:16 #undo 00:58:16 Removing item from minutes: 00:58:31 #info I need to approach some translators to fix some slight changes we made to the Common Content in Publican 1; but all RH-sponsored languages (plus a few others) are in good shape 00:58:49 laubersm: Yeah... that didn't work like I wanted it too. 00:59:05 laubersm: The day after F12 was released there should have been a F13 branch. :( 00:59:39 sparks: mm... that depends, branching methods differ. 00:59:52 history looks like there is F11 and F10 and master... so master should go to F12 and master becomes the next (rawhide like) 01:00:03 at least in the few that I work on. 01:00:07 Many would say you hold on to a "development" or moving branch until you *know* that you need to work on both a specific "next" version and stuff that won't make it to the next version. 01:00:22 laubersm: Right 01:00:22 well... branching == working on F13 guide and leaving F12 alone, short of bugs, etc. 01:00:35 yeah 01:00:42 yup, but then "master" or "devel" or whatever would be F13 until such time as we needed to work on F14 01:00:46 yes 01:00:48 Which might happen before F13, or it might not 01:01:14 It's kind of up to a community to figure that out, document it, and then do it regularly. 01:01:31 * stickster realizes we're way into a new topic here though. 01:01:40 Would be good to do this on the list instead of using meeting time :-) 01:01:47 * stickster has a hard stop in 5 min. 01:02:02 sparks: Should I give a quick intro to this topic? 01:02:03 yes 01:02:23 laubersm: Can you bring up the branching topic so we can make a decision and record it 01:02:24 * jjmcd wonders how much effort to put in before we understand what zikula will do to us 01:02:24 ? 01:02:38 yes 01:02:45 jjmcd: I agree. 01:03:01 #action laubersm Bring branching topic to docs list to decide how we want to do this going forward, and record it for posterity. 01:03:07 Thanks laubersm! 01:03:13 jjmcd: That depends, the only plan we had talked about to a great extent was publishing RPMs and HTML on Zikula. 01:03:13 jjmcd: Unless you guys are planning abandoning source code repos, branching matters. 01:03:13 (which you might be doing, I'm not assuming anything) 01:03:13 Oh, I was back to the javascript topic, sorry 01:03:13 Ah 01:03:13 Well, still worthwhile since there's no Zikula ETA 01:03:13 RNs is a different branching prob than guides anyway 01:03:13 * stickster gets back on topic 01:03:13 sparks: jjmcd: Who created the current HTML indeces? 01:03:13 rudi 01:03:20 If I recall, I had a cockamamy scheme but rudi beat me to the punch with a prettier scheme 01:03:23 OK, so really we just need to see if rudi can put a graceful fallback in that allows people to use a HTML form submit if no JS is available. 01:03:53 I think most people have browsers that handle JS. But unfortunately, most of them aren't a11y (accessibility) challenged 01:04:03 s/them/those people/ 01:05:01 So I suggest that I just bring this to the list to see if this is a fix that is relatively minor, and if so, if rudi can do it, and if not, we can file a websites ticket to get help from someone who knows what they're doing. 01:05:20 +/-1? 01:05:32 +1 01:05:57 I'm pretty sure it will be a useability delta, but I think codewise easy 01:06:22 jjmcd: If it's a proper fallback, it shouldn't make any difference to people who have JS browsers. 01:06:35 You make your dropdown selection, and things will just happen as they do now. 01:06:53 If you happen to be sans JS, you hit the button afterward, and then everything works 01:07:13 Yeah, I think I can see how that would work 01:07:15 * stickster is specifically referring to adding a "GO" button or some such. 01:07:22 Yep 01:07:39 So each dropdown needs a noscript block 01:07:41 So I think it's essentially no delta for people other than those for whom the delta is positive :-) 01:08:03 * stickster takes the action item 01:08:05 #action stickster Ask rudi through list to provide non-JS fallback (HTML form submit or something else). If he can't do it, file ticket with websites to ask for help. 01:09:01 * sparks is getting close to a hard stop 01:09:48 * stickster is there 01:09:52 Okay, anything else on this topic? 01:10:18 Nothing here 01:10:53 Okay 01:11:00 #topic All other business 01:11:15 #action sparks to setup a bug busting weekend 01:12:04 Anyone have anything? 01:12:43 sparks: Are you going to send some email about that this week? 01:13:04 I hope to 01:13:11 * sparks needs to get his head on straight 01:14:24 * stickster jets, g'night all 01:14:35 Well... thanks everyone for coming tonight. 01:14:45 Let's do this again next week! 01:14:50 #endmeeting