16:00:02 <nirik> #startmeeting IRC Support SIG (2010-04-01)
16:00:03 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Apr  1 16:00:02 2010 UTC.  The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:00:03 <nirik> #meetingname irc-support-sig
16:00:03 <nirik> #topic init process
16:00:03 <nirik> Who all is around for the meeting?
16:00:04 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:00:07 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'irc-support-sig'
16:01:06 * Southern_Gentlem 
16:01:13 <fenris02> 
16:01:22 * mock 
16:01:33 <mock> (even though it doesn't matter)
16:01:48 <nirik> sure it matters. ;)
16:01:56 <gholms> [a cricket chirps in the distance]
16:01:59 * DiscordianUK is present
16:02:13 <gholms> Gah, wrong channel!
16:02:34 * mock hands gholms a map of the channels
16:02:35 <decker> me, I'm trying to voice a complaint about ops: http://pastebin.com/ZL5eQhne
16:02:37 <nirik> gholms: crickets could churp here too. ;)
16:03:01 <fenris02> mock -r $BUILDTAG --uniqueext=$USER --resultdir=$RESULTDIR world
16:03:13 <nirik> decker: ok, can you wait for the end of the meeting? or do you want it to be first?
16:03:56 <mock> fenris02 -r $BUILDTAG --uniqueext=$USER --resultdir=$RESULTDIR universe
16:03:58 <Southern_Gentlem> nirik,  i make the motion that its at the end of the meeting
16:04:08 <fenris02> mock, trumped.
16:04:26 <mock> :)
16:04:43 <Southern_Gentlem> so we can get through the other stuff then bring that up
16:04:59 * nirik doesn't care... we can do it either way.
16:05:14 <decker> nirik: don't matter to me.  the end is good. the start is good. don't matter to me.
16:05:29 <nirik> decker: ok, lets do it toward the end if you don't mind then...
16:05:37 <nirik> ok, lets go ahead and get started.
16:05:38 <decker> nirik: not a problem
16:05:42 <nirik> #topic Week in review
16:05:47 <nirik> @channelstats #fedora
16:05:47 <fedbot> nirik: On #fedora there have been 291152 messages, containing 12154019 characters, 2131831 words, 7436 smileys, and 10274 frowns; 3881 of those messages were ACTIONs.  There have been 65285 joins, 5219 parts, 60317 quits, 168 kicks, 482 mode changes, and 9 topic changes.  There are currently 391 users and the channel has peaked at 609 users.
16:05:58 <nirik> http://fedora.theglaserfamily.org/ircstats/fedora-weekly.html
16:06:13 <nirik> pretty quiet week overall. I was busy and not around too much...
16:06:43 <nirik> more f13 folks showing up.
16:06:53 <Southern_Gentlem> normal at this time in the release cycle
16:07:02 <nirik> Anything else anyone would like to note about the last week? any common bugs or the like?
16:07:33 <fenris02> nirik, has beta been moved out a week too?
16:08:04 <nirik> yes, it has. ;) We can move on to that if there's no more weekly stuff...
16:08:15 <nirik> #topic 2010-04-06 for f13 questions?
16:08:22 <fenris02> np
16:08:31 <nirik> this was our cutoff for taking f13 stuff...
16:08:41 <nirik> should we push it out a week? or leave it at the 6th?
16:08:49 <Southern_Gentlem> push
16:08:56 <fenris02> i would wait until f13-beta is actually out
16:09:00 <DiscordianUK> +1
16:09:01 <nirik> Beta and final release each slipped by 1 week.
16:09:35 <Southern_Gentlem> we start supporting @beta  beta pushed so we pushed
16:10:06 <nirik> ok, 1 week out seems fine to me too.
16:10:14 <Southern_Gentlem> +1
16:10:32 <nirik> any objections? going once...
16:10:57 <nirik> #topic 2010-04-15 clean ban
16:11:11 <nirik> that should be ban list. ;) Anyhow... keep that the same? or push out?
16:11:30 <Southern_Gentlem> keep same +1
16:11:31 <fenris02> no reason to move it that i can think of
16:11:32 <nirik> That would be right after the beta.
16:11:38 <DiscordianUK> Same logic it was predicated on the beta
16:11:50 <DiscordianUK> So change to when the beta ships
16:12:49 <Southern_Gentlem> DiscordianUK,  my idea on the 15th was that beta would be out and we would have time to deal with beta before we opened the flood gates again
16:13:11 <nirik> so that gives us less time to do so... but I don't think it's a big problem...
16:13:11 <fenris02> is 06 -> 15 sufficient time for that?
16:13:34 <DiscordianUK> Well then push back to the a week after the beta
16:13:35 <Southern_Gentlem> i think so
16:13:45 <nirik> it would be 13th -> 15th
16:13:57 <DiscordianUK> Sounds sane to me
16:14:11 <nirik> so push to the 22nd?
16:14:22 <Southern_Gentlem> keep the 15th +1
16:14:48 <DiscordianUK> I don't have a problem with that
16:15:04 <Southern_Gentlem> DiscordianUK,  vote one way or another
16:15:10 <DiscordianUK> 15th
16:15:13 * nirik doesn't care either. I guess keep the 15th
16:15:14 <fenris02> 15th is a thu/fri - is that the best day to do such things?
16:15:16 <Southern_Gentlem> ty
16:15:37 <nirik> I don't know that any day is better/worse than any other.
16:15:50 <fenris02> i forget what the slow day is.
16:16:02 <Southern_Gentlem> there wont be
16:16:03 <nirik> I think it varies.
16:16:13 <Southern_Gentlem> when beta is released
16:16:21 <nirik> ok, so keep it on the 15th... moving along...
16:16:22 <fenris02> point.
16:16:48 <nirik> #topic Operators code of conduct
16:16:59 <nirik> I made some changes to the https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/IRC_operators_code_of_conduct page.
16:17:07 <nirik> Did anyone else draft changes they would like to see?
16:17:52 <nirik> I guess EvilBob was going to, but he's not around today...
16:18:45 <Southern_Gentlem> look good so far
16:19:02 <nirik> I removed mention of shifts and mailing lists, neither of which we ever implemented.
16:19:02 <Southern_Gentlem> i havent had time
16:19:27 <nirik> ok, we could just punt another week I suppose... please do look over and make changes/draft alternates.
16:19:28 <DiscordianUK> Looks good here
16:19:38 <nirik> it would be good to get this all set so we have a good guideline.
16:19:41 <Southern_Gentlem> i think we have good coverage from the looks of the logs
16:20:19 <nirik> ok, so please do look it over, will revisit next week.
16:20:54 <nirik> #topic Open Floor
16:21:03 <nirik> decker: you had something to talk about?
16:21:20 <nirik> decker: can you tell us how things could have been handled better or how we could improve from it?
16:21:53 <Southern_Gentlem> decker came into the #fedora channel and posted a log and said he wanted to talk about it being rude etc
16:22:02 <decker> nirik: yeah.  I mean, I have this #fedora log: http://pastebin.com/ZL5eQhne
16:22:12 <Southern_Gentlem> i posted the log with timestamps here http://fpaste.org/ew4x/
16:22:20 <Southern_Gentlem> timestampps are EST
16:23:03 <decker> I'm thinking that's way wrong for how ops should be going about things.  granted the foss guy is upset and going a bit nuts.  but cmon now.  de-escalate the thing.  it's obvious from the get go what the guy is after
16:23:09 <decker> why beat around the bush?
16:23:30 <nirik> decker: how would you answer them?
16:23:32 <Southern_Gentlem> decker,  do you see anything wrong with my log i posted
16:23:35 <fenris02> decker, his question was answered early.
16:23:59 <nirik> I agree that was not ideal, IMHO.
16:24:00 <fenris02> decker, he did not like his answer and wanted another, just to argue about it.
16:24:03 <decker> tell the guy straight.  the applet don't exist but there's still something there.  if it's not showing up then you probably have some bigger problems, namely sound problems.
16:24:39 <decker> if you're just gonna jerk the guy around?  great.  but if you're an op, I don't buy it.  don't jerk the guy around if you're all op status
16:24:45 <Southern_Gentlem> decker,  and the guy waas asked what did he do to remove it
16:25:03 <nirik> They reported never having one.
16:25:48 <decker> Southern_Gentlem: and to my recollection the guy said it's a fresh install.  and again, the guy's confused.  major. doing be a jerkaholic to him if he's simply confused.  specially if you're op status.
16:26:12 <decker> ha,.  bah. don't be a jerkaholic I meant to say
16:26:34 <decker> but that works too.  doing be a jerkaholic
16:26:44 <Southern_Gentlem> decker,  from what read in that log was fenris02  didnt say anything to him untill the guy kept on
16:26:50 <nirik> I'd like to point everyone again to the http://freenode.net/catalysts.shtml page...
16:27:05 <Southern_Gentlem> then the guy put a target on fenris02
16:27:47 <decker> Southern_Gentlem: well, I dunno.  all I can say is I was there in realtime.  and it seems to me like the op dude was just egging the guy on.  help the guy or not.  isn't that the point?  don't piss people off.
16:27:58 <fenris02> nirik, good page to mention on the CoC page.
16:28:10 <nirik> fenris02: ah yes, will add it. ;)
16:28:20 <nirik> anyhow, I don't think placing blame gets us anywhere.
16:28:23 <decker> it was completely obvious to me that the dude needed to adjust his volume.  why beat around the bush on it?
16:28:39 <fenris02> decker, if it was that clear to you, did you tell him how?
16:29:04 <decker> fenris02: because I showed up right around the time you're going nuts on the guy.
16:29:16 <fenris02> decker, what relation do you have with foss?  personal friend?
16:29:45 <decker> fenris02: not at all.  first time I've ever seen the guy.  probably the last from the looks of it
16:30:14 <Southern_Gentlem> decker,  there is also some history you do not know about
16:30:17 <fenris02> decker, ok, so what level of involvement were you asked regarding that situation?
16:30:33 <decker> I've just been on #fedora, ##linux (which is way not a good example), and #linuxhelp forever.  and it seems to me that if you're all op status then don't go around picking fights
16:31:34 <nirik> decker: sure.
16:31:50 <nirik> there is backhistory with this user... which I don't think we want to get into here.
16:32:02 <decker> fenris02: so you're gonna sit there with a straight face and tell me you didn't know what the guy was after? you're an op besides?  why not help the guy instead of banning him?
16:32:35 <fenris02> decker, i answered what questions i saw.  that is all.
16:32:35 <decker> yeah, he blew it really.  given.  but not that bad really. you egged him on.  why not go the other route and help the guy I say
16:32:58 <decker> bah
16:33:01 <decker> I've had my say
16:33:17 <decker> I shoulda logged some of your other nonsense I think
16:33:22 <fenris02> decker, fwiw, he was only banned for 15m.
16:33:23 <decker> in the future I will
16:33:28 <nirik> decker: can you be constructive?
16:33:52 <nirik> I think we can learn from this...
16:34:05 <fenris02> decker, do you have a personal beef with me?  is that the real issue?
16:34:07 <nirik> be more patient, try and be more catalyzing.
16:34:12 <decker> nirik: how am I not?  don't ban guys that are simply looking for help.  don't be, as foss himself said, "passive agressive jackasses".  help the dude
16:34:17 <decker> what I do
16:34:27 <decker> I mean, there's a time and place to get nuts on guys.
16:34:43 <nirik> decker: thanks for bringing it up.
16:35:06 <nirik> Anything further we can learn from this?
16:35:08 <decker> when they're spouting crap about c# being the ultimate and linux suck and screw the world, great.  go nuts on him.  the guy wanted help.  help him out
16:35:30 <nirik> or step away if you can't.
16:35:45 <decker> he's confused.  obviously.  some guy sorta, kinda, sorta tried to help him.  but man, the guy didn't get it.  so help him. don't be a prick
16:36:09 <nirik> decker: ok, anything further we can learn from this? You are repeating yourself... ;)
16:36:43 <decker> guess that's it on my end.  seems like I didn't get anywhere even.  but yeah, great.  had my say
16:37:31 <nirik> decker: thanks for bringing it up... I hope we can learn from it.
16:37:41 <nirik> ok, anything else for open floor?
16:37:56 <BobLfoot> Change of subject question just jumping in here -- Where and How do we draw the line between handing someone a fish and pushing them to fish for themselves.  Not sure I have an answer just a question.
16:38:08 <decker> fenris02: bah, don't even know you. my beef?  that particular exchange.  that's it. period. don't know this foss guy from adam. don't know you from adam.  relax jerko.
16:38:38 <fenris02> decker, sounds like you have an issue with me at the moment.  i am relaxed.
16:38:40 <nirik> decker: please stop the namecalling.
16:38:54 <nirik> BobLfoot: good question. I think it's variable. ;)
16:39:02 <fenris02> BobLfoot, typically, if they give an ounce of effort, i help much more than just "man foo"
16:39:23 <decker> nirik: sorry.  just barely noticed that.  spit out what came to mind
16:39:50 <BobLfoot> I can speak from experience having just recently diving back in that at times the man foo stuff is irritating, but was what I needed.
16:39:54 <nirik> BobLfoot: I don't think it's an easy question at all...
16:40:13 <decker> and jerko, jerkaholic, prick, whathave you.  don't mean a whole lot by any of it.  I'd call my best friends a ******** something or other.
16:40:32 <fenris02> decker, that is your call.  however, it is not acceptable language in #fedora.
16:40:46 <BobLfoot> Once thing I would add is remind new users that if they read man foo and don't quite follow it they are encouraged to come back and ask questions.
16:40:50 <nirik> ok, I will close out the meeting here in a minute if there's no further topics.
16:41:07 <nirik> BobLfoot: yep
16:41:13 <fenris02> BobLfoot, if you tell someone http://foo or "man bar", and they have questions indicating they actually looked at the page, feel free to add more info imho
16:42:06 <nirik> Thanks for coming everyone.
16:42:10 <BobLfoot> fenris02: my point exactly - fedora does a much better job than some on helping you understand the man foo but can improve also
16:42:11 <nirik> #endmeeting