23:00:09 <Sparks> #startmeeting Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings
23:00:09 <Sparks> #meetingname Fedora Docs
23:00:09 <Sparks> #topic Roll Call
23:00:09 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Jun 16 23:00:09 2010 UTC.  The chair is Sparks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
23:00:09 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
23:00:09 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_docs'
23:00:16 * Sparks is here
23:00:26 * stickster 
23:00:43 * Emad78 is here
23:00:50 * crantila is here
23:00:57 * rudi_ is here
23:00:59 <rudi_> (kinda)
23:01:01 * nb 
23:01:34 * necronarcolepsy is here
23:02:20 <Sparks> #chair stickster
23:02:20 <zodbot> Current chairs: Sparks stickster
23:02:28 <Sparks> Looks like a good group already!
23:02:36 <stickster> #chair rudi_
23:02:36 <zodbot> Current chairs: Sparks rudi_ stickster
23:03:52 * bcotton-away is here
23:04:06 <Sparks> Hmmm.. you're away but here
23:04:09 <Sparks> Okay, let's get started...
23:04:21 <Sparks> #topic Follow up on last week's action items
23:04:33 <Sparks> Let's see... jjmcd isn't here
23:04:43 <Sparks> rudi_: You had a few things on your list.
23:05:07 <Sparks> rudi to come back in two weeks with whether or not there is significant translation activity.
23:05:11 * laubersm slips in
23:05:22 <Sparks> rudi_: I think this is the second week.
23:05:31 <rudi_> Yeah, but it's moot now
23:05:46 <rudi_> That was so we could move the git repos without disrupting Tx too much
23:05:55 <rudi_> But that work is all done now, thanks to nb :)
23:05:58 <rudi_> (and raven)
23:06:07 <Sparks> rudi_: That's right...
23:06:20 <Sparks> #action rudi and jjmcd to come up with updates to the schedule for F14 release by 30 June 2010
23:06:29 <Sparks> rudi to discuss docs.fp.o's non-translated docs.
23:06:53 <Sparks> rudi_: Did you come up with a viable solution to the non-translated docs?
23:07:12 <rudi_> Not yet; it's surprisingly tricky
23:07:37 <rudi_> Well, tricky to do in a scalable sort of way anyhow
23:07:42 * Sparks isn't surprised at all.  It sounds difficult.
23:07:53 <rudi_> But yeah, we're working on it
23:08:20 <Sparks> #action rudi_ to find a solution to present un-translated documents to non-English speakers on docs.fp.o
23:08:29 <Sparks> rudi to discuss Koji
23:08:37 <Sparks> rudi_: I've got this on the calendar for today as well.
23:09:08 <rudi_> So I started down this path this week, but the person I really need to talk to is on leave right now (the sys admin who set up the system internally for RH)
23:09:34 <rudi_> Should be back soon; so I have to defer on that one as well this week unfortunately
23:09:56 <Sparks> #action rudi_ to discuss Koji
23:10:05 <Sparks> On to my action items
23:10:10 <Sparks> Sparks to write an article on the new docs.fp.o and the guides within
23:10:29 <Sparks> Yeah, I started this but I want to talk to stickster about it before I dive to deep.
23:10:37 <Sparks> Sparks to create BZ components for the Musicians' Guide, the Amateur Radio Guide, and the Technical Guide.
23:10:41 <stickster> I don't understand the nature of the problem
23:10:44 <Sparks> Finished those last week.
23:11:04 <stickster> Sparks: Can you describe for me? Or point me to an email? I may have missed some while at SELF
23:11:33 <Sparks> stickster: It was at the meeting two weeks ago.  It was suggested that we talk more about our new docs.fp.o.
23:11:54 <stickster> Sparks: You mean... like blog about it and so forth?
23:12:00 <Sparks> and that perhaps an article could be written that could be used by x for publishing
23:12:18 <Sparks> stickster: I believe the language was journal or magazine
23:12:56 <stickster> Sparks: I think that's a fine idea, who's writing it?
23:12:58 <Sparks> stickster: The idea was put on hold and I didn't think about it at SELF.
23:13:04 <Sparks> stickster: Apparently I am.  heh
23:13:13 <stickster> Do we have an outlet selected?
23:13:19 <Sparks> not yet
23:14:13 <stickster> Here's what I'd do -- (1) ask on the Marketing list if a subscribing journalist is interested in carrying such an article, or knows someone who is.
23:15:25 <stickster> Have a set of bullet points that "pitch" the article and why this is something readers might be interested in. If it's a certain class of readers, identify them in the pitch.
23:15:42 <stickster> (2) Write the article according to the bullets
23:16:23 <stickster> (3) Have it reviewed by a few Docs people. This shouldn't be done on the list *only* because magazines or online sites don't want it on some public site that's not theirs
23:16:28 <stickster> Make sense?
23:16:36 <Sparks> Yes
23:16:45 * stickster eof
23:17:09 <stickster> Sparks: and let the list know about it :-)
23:17:09 <Sparks> stickster: Thanks!
23:17:13 <Sparks> heh
23:17:21 <Sparks> Okay, anything else before we move on?
23:17:39 <stickster> #action sparks Send email to list proposing magazine article work
23:17:55 <stickster> "If it ain't on the list, it didn't happen"
23:17:59 <nb> Sparks, how are bugzilla components created? is that still /cvs/docs/owners/owners.lst?
23:18:08 <Sparks> stickster: True!
23:18:09 <Sparks> nb: yes
23:18:24 <nb> ok, i was just wondering
23:19:14 <Sparks> #action CMS: Did Publican replace Zikula?
23:19:18 <Sparks> #undo
23:19:18 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Action object at 0x14a63350>
23:19:24 <Sparks> #topic CMS: Did Publican replace Zikula?
23:20:05 <Sparks> Okay, last week I wanted to gather opinions as to whether or not we should continue thinking about Zikula.
23:20:21 * nb would say publican can do most of it (except a web-based editor)
23:20:28 <nb> but im not sure if we have that much demand for a web based editor
23:20:37 <Sparks> Publican now provides a frontend to docs.fp.o and seems to be a one-stop shop
23:20:44 <Sparks> nb: True
23:21:45 <Sparks> I think jjmcd was going to setup Zikula on his computer to see what it would give us.
23:22:01 <Sparks> Does anyone have anything to say on this?
23:22:46 * Sparks hears crickets
23:23:01 <Sparks> Okay, so we'll wait for jjmcd to come back with his results.
23:23:23 <Sparks> #topic Release Notes
23:23:31 <Sparks> So jjmcd isn't here tonight...
23:23:37 <stickster> Sparks: oops, I missed your topic
23:23:45 <Sparks> #undo
23:23:45 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Topic object at 0x839e1d0>
23:23:49 <Sparks> stickster: go ahead
23:24:03 <stickster> Publican provides a way to easily publish docs in a pre-existing framework.
23:24:18 <stickster> It is nowhere near a CMS, and the question is whether that's sufficient.
23:24:40 * Sparks wonders if we were just looking for an "easy" way to put stuff on the web.
23:24:42 * laubersm remembers seeing some front end to editing for publican announced recently...
23:25:08 <stickster> Sparks: It doesn't matter whether that CMS is Zikula, Drupal, or something else. A CMS is a full framework for classifying, presenting, and collaborating on content.
23:25:09 <rudi_> laubersm -- that's endoculator
23:25:26 <laubersm> yeah - that sounds familiar..
23:25:41 * stickster hopes that Red Hat Content Services isn't doing a whole NIH CMS, but hasn't seen anything that would make him think that was the idea
23:25:43 <rudi_> lauber -- it's basically a front-end for Publican
23:25:50 <Sparks> stickster: Agreed...  but I think we were looking for an easy way to build a webpage and not that we needed everything the CMS would give us.
23:25:58 <stickster> rudi_: Right, like a GUI that lets you do what you'd do at the command line otherwise
23:26:10 <rudi_> stickster -- exactly
23:26:24 <stickster> Sparks: The things that we don't have with Publican are things like freeform taxonomies and easily established or moved URLs
23:26:48 <stickster> I'm not at all saying, "Publican is a stopgap and we should move away from it."
23:27:20 <stickster> I'm just saying, one or more people in Docs should probably do a little playing with a CMS to understand the differences
23:27:22 <stickster> and the similarities
23:27:38 <Sparks> Maybe we need to reinvestigate our need for a CMS now that we have more/better information.
23:27:40 <stickster> and what they might want or need to take advantage of in the future.
23:28:05 <stickster> Sparks: I think so, and the good thing is that Publican for the time being is *way* better than our previous setup.
23:28:19 <Sparks> Yes
23:28:23 <Sparks> Okay....
23:28:33 <stickster> There may even be ways for a CMS to pull in content from Publican and duplicate it in some other presentation form automatically, so that we needn't have to choose.
23:28:55 <Sparks> Would anyone like to step up to investigate CMSs and see if that's something we need?  I think jjmcd will be working on it.
23:29:09 <stickster> Sparks: Aren't you in possession of a Drupal book?
23:29:19 <Sparks> stickster: Yes I am!
23:29:23 <stickster> I know you attended a talk in the DrupalCamp with me :-)
23:29:45 * Sparks can you make the day 36 hours instead of 24?  :)
23:29:51 <Sparks> bah
23:29:57 * Sparks can't type tonight
23:30:29 <Sparks> Yeah, I want to play with Drupal and so in the process I'll figure out what benefits ANY CMS could give us
23:30:40 <stickster> Yeah, that's the easiest way to go about it I think
23:30:47 * stickster is thinking of picking up that book too
23:30:55 * stickster eof
23:31:08 <jsmith-teaching> stickster: I have the book, and would be happy to lend it to you
23:31:21 * jsmith-teaching eof
23:31:21 <stickster> jsmith-teaching: The Pro Drupal Development book on Apress?
23:31:22 <stickster> Cool!
23:31:33 <jsmith-teaching> stickster: Oh, sorry.. the O'reilly book
23:31:40 <stickster> Well, O'Reilly's good too
23:31:45 <stickster> I hear they have a couple authors that know what they're doing
23:31:47 <stickster> ;-)
23:31:49 <jsmith-teaching> Aye :-p
23:31:56 <stickster> Let's talk offline then :-)
23:31:57 * stickster eof
23:32:15 <Sparks> Okay then.
23:32:26 <Sparks> Anyone else want to volunteer?
23:32:58 <Sparks> Anyone have anything else on the CMS discussion?
23:33:04 <stickster> nada
23:33:20 <Sparks> Okay, moving on
23:33:25 <Sparks> #topic Release Notes
23:33:32 <Sparks> Okay, so jjmcd isn't here tonight...
23:34:11 <Sparks> So we'll come back to this when he returns.
23:34:19 <Sparks> I don't know of anything pressing right now.
23:34:32 <Sparks> #topic Guide Status
23:34:55 <Sparks> Anyone have anything guide-related they'd like to talk about?
23:35:05 <crantila> .
23:35:34 <crantila> as described here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Crantila/FSC/Testing
23:35:52 <crantila> I would like people to help me test a method to use PulseAudio and JACK together, just to make sure that it works
23:36:09 <Sparks> crantila: This is for the Musicians' Guide, correct?
23:36:13 <crantila> and if you're feeling adventurous, then a method to remove PulseAudio would be a great addition, but it's quite hard
23:36:25 <crantila> Sparks: yes!  Can't just assume people know what I'm talking about...
23:36:52 <Sparks> Great
23:37:04 <Sparks> Anyone want to help crantila with QA?
23:37:05 <stickster> Removing PulseAudio shouldn't be necessary AFAICT, esp. from what I heard in Daniel Chen's talk this weekend at SELF. crantila, what if we got you together with the test@ list to gather some folks to help with this?
23:37:26 <stickster> crantila: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
23:37:34 <crantila> there's a test list... who knew!
23:37:37 <stickster> :-)
23:37:48 <stickster> That's the HQ for the QA team
23:37:51 <crantila> thank you
23:38:06 <Sparks> stickster: Awesome!
23:38:09 * stickster eof
23:39:11 <Sparks> crantila: How is the guide going?
23:39:55 <crantila> Sparks: I'm chugging along.  It can be slow, but I gather that's how this process works
23:40:21 <Sparks> crantila: That's how it works sometimes.
23:40:26 <rudi_> crantila -- remember "bash to fit, paint to finish" :D
23:40:48 <crantila> ... I'll keep that in mind!
23:40:55 <Sparks> heh
23:41:08 <Sparks> Okay...  So I guess I'll talk about the Amateur Radio Guide...
23:41:50 <Sparks> We have pushed it into the drafts folder on docs.fp.o in hopes that we can get some other folks involved in it.
23:42:10 <Sparks> It still needs a lot of work but I'm hoping to help jjmcd enough to get it pushed for F14
23:42:55 <Sparks> I'd also like to thank everyone who put their goals up on our goals wiki page
23:42:57 <Sparks> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_guide_goals_for_F14
23:43:25 <Sparks> Now I hope to see them marked a DONE or COMPLETED or something so we can keep track of everyone's progress.
23:43:46 <Sparks> Starting next week we'll spotlight two guides every week so be ready to talk about your guide!
23:44:00 <rudi_> Oooh! At random?
23:44:02 <rudi_> :)
23:44:30 <Sparks> rudi_: I was thinking about publishing a schedule but I think calling on the quiet kid in the back of the room would be more fun
23:44:44 <rudi_> Yeah :)
23:44:54 <Sparks> Anyone have any guides they'd like to talk about?
23:45:04 * stickster thinks that a schedule is best for setting expectations
23:45:25 <stickster> Otherwise, crickets can overrun the meeting ;-)
23:45:47 <Sparks> :D
23:45:53 <Sparks> Okay, moving on!
23:46:02 <crantila> remember: if you talk about your guide this week, then you can slack off next week because you won't be asked
23:46:04 * laubersm hates printing... so if anyone wants to pick up that task in the UG....
23:46:28 <Sparks> crantila: There may be a pop quiz at any time!
23:46:28 <laubersm> Other items for UG are fairly minor and most won't be possible until alpha for F14
23:46:44 <rudi_> printing: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/printers
23:47:07 <rudi_> I don't suppose we can use that
23:47:17 <Sparks> heh
23:47:19 <laubersm> hmmm
23:47:27 <Sparks> Okay, let's move on so we don't run out of time.
23:47:36 <Sparks> #topic Outstanding BZ Tickets
23:47:44 <stickster> rudi_: lulzy
23:47:47 <Sparks> #link https://bugzilla.redhat.com/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&classification=Fedora&product=Fedora%20Documentation&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED
23:47:53 <bethlynn1> Sparks: re amateur radio, did you talk to the "linux in a hamshack" folks at self?
23:48:42 <Sparks> bethlynn1: Unfortunately there were TWO other talks I wanted to go to in addition to the ham radio one.
23:48:56 <Sparks> the Secure Virtualization won out.
23:49:11 <Sparks> Okay, just looking there are 108 open tickets!
23:49:43 <Sparks> Many of them, I think, are internal tickets...
23:50:05 <Sparks> but we need to make sure that we are making an effort to work with the folks that take the time to file the bug.
23:50:16 <bethlynn1> Sparks: If it would help, I will introduce you via email to those folks. they would at least give fedora a plug on their podcast.
23:50:16 <stickster> Sparks: What does that involve?
23:50:39 <stickster> bethlynn1: That is awesome! Thanks for making the connection
23:51:30 <Sparks> stickster: Well, first it's important to grab the ticket and assign it to yourself!  At least that lets the reporter know that you are alive.
23:51:41 <Sparks> ...and that you haven't forgotten about the tickets in BZ.
23:51:57 <Sparks> Asking questions to clarify is good as well.
23:52:32 <Sparks> But most importantly remedy the problem that's being reported.  If you don't know how put a call out on the list.
23:52:47 <Sparks> And when that problem is remedied CLOSE the ticket.
23:53:21 <Sparks> I can't tell you how frustrating it is to wait to hear back from the developer on a solution to find out that he fixed it but never said anything on the bug...
23:53:41 <Sparks> Anyone have any questions?
23:54:21 <Sparks> Comments?
23:54:27 * stickster thinks we need an aging query that tells us which bugs might be starving
23:54:38 <stickster> I have no idea how to do that in BZ but I think it's possible
23:54:50 <Sparks> It would also be nice to know which tickets are internal versus external
23:55:06 <Sparks> i.e. a note to ourselves versus a bug from a reader
23:55:28 <Sparks> #action Sparks to discuss bug maintenance on the list
23:55:33 <laubersm> isn't there some flag that might work for that?
23:55:39 <Sparks> laubersm: Maybe
23:56:08 * laubersm can barely search on components like UG, let alone anything else
23:56:26 <Sparks> laubersm: Really?  I can help you out after the meeting...
23:56:47 <laubersm> thanks - but no thanks.  I got my UG bugs to keep me busy enough :)
23:56:47 <Sparks> Okay, let's move to the open discussion for the last four minutes.
23:56:52 <Sparks> :D
23:56:57 <Sparks> #topic Open Discussion
23:57:04 <Sparks> Anyone have anything they'd like to discuss?
23:57:26 <Sparks> Anyone?
23:57:29 <bethlynn1> hi everybody
23:57:29 <Sparks> Anything?
23:57:50 <bethlynn1> Is now a good time for me to introduce myself?
23:57:55 <Sparks> bethlynn1 helped us our on the Friday at SELF...  very helpful
23:57:57 <Sparks> bethlynn1: Sure
23:57:59 <necronarcolepsy> i just wanna say hi, i'm a total newbie, hope to get involved as soon as i get my bearings
23:58:26 <laubersm> hi to both!
23:58:30 <necronarcolepsy> :D
23:58:48 <Sparks> necronarcolepsy: Join us in #fedora-docs after the meeting!
23:58:54 <laubersm> want to write a "printing in fedora for newbies" chapter?
23:58:55 <Sparks> we'll help you along.
23:58:59 * laubersm ducks and runs
23:59:06 <Sparks> laubersm: Wow, way to throw that out there.
23:59:07 <bethlynn1> I am Beth Lynn Eicher. If anybody has heard of the Ohio LinuxFest, I am the driving force behind that.
23:59:11 <necronarcolepsy> Sparks: will do
23:59:41 <necronarcolepsy> I am willing to attempt anything as long as people have my back, lol
23:59:43 <stickster> bethlynn1: Ohio whazzat? Never heard of it. ;-)
23:59:55 * laubersm was in Ohio last week...
23:59:57 <stickster> Ohio Linux Fest rocks!
23:59:57 <bethlynn1> I am interested in writing documentation for Fedora since $dayjob has me sysadming on RHEL
00:00:15 <Sparks> necronarcolepsy: There are lots of folks around and lots of help always!
00:00:18 <stickster> <red_fedora wear="on">As well it should!</red_fedora>
00:01:04 * Sparks contemplates a complete rollout of F13 in the lab...  RHEL, who needs it... :)
00:01:14 <Sparks> Okay, anything else before we close the meeting?
00:01:41 <Sparks> bethlynn1: Welcome as well!  You should join us in #fedora-docs as well!
00:02:08 <Sparks> Okay, well thanks everyone for coming out for the meeting.  Drinks will be served in #fedora-docs as always!
00:02:11 <Sparks> #endmeeting