21:00:23 <brunowolff> #startmeeting
21:00:23 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Jun 28 21:00:23 2010 UTC.  The chair is brunowolff. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
21:00:23 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
21:00:39 <brunowolff> #meetingname spins-sig
21:00:39 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'spins-sig'
21:00:49 <brunowolff> #topic Is anyone else here?
21:01:04 <brunowolff> nirik, anybody else here for the spins meeting?
21:01:24 <nirik> yep. I am
21:01:31 <nirik> do we have an agenda?
21:02:05 <brunowolff> A bigger one than we can handle, but we can choose topics off of it that we can do with whoever is here.
21:02:19 <nirik> whats the page you had?
21:02:27 <brunowolff> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Spins_SIG_Meetings
21:02:43 * nirik looks to see what things we should really cover today.
21:03:17 <brunowolff> #topic livecd booting and installing in rawhide
21:03:40 <nirik> I haven't tested this, but several people have reported problems.
21:03:45 <brunowolff> I grabbed a copy of the games spin from the 25th, but didn't get a chance to test it yet.
21:04:06 * stickster is lurky
21:04:26 <brunowolff> I was hoping to do it yesterday, but got distracted.
21:04:52 <brunowolff> I can probably get it copied to a USB drive and test the boot tonight.
21:05:04 <nirik> yeah, I can try and make the effort to do that.
21:05:16 <nirik> I don't know if bugs have been filed... let me look real quick before we move on.
21:05:41 <brunowolff> Install is trickier, as the machines that are mine are old and don't like booting from usb devices. The new machines are my wife's and
21:05:48 <brunowolff> I don't get to break those.
21:05:48 <nirik> there's a fair number of livecd-tools bugs. ;(
21:05:56 <nirik> I can test in virt env
21:06:50 <nirik> anyhow, will try and test, lets move on.
21:07:01 <nirik> unless someone else already has and can point us to a bug. ;)
21:07:16 <brunowolff> I can try a DVD, but my dvd burning and/or old media don't seem to burn very reliably and I wouldn't be sure problems weren't do
21:07:19 <brunowolff> to bad burns.
21:07:52 <brunowolff> #action nirik and bruno will do some boot / install tests of nightly livecds
21:08:02 * nirik fires off a download.
21:08:18 <brunowolff> #topic spins wrangler?
21:09:00 <nirik> none of the spin owners replied about doing it.
21:09:04 <stickster> This seems like one of the most important topics on a strategic level
21:09:30 <brunowolff> I think Peter Robinson wanted to get more involved in spins, but I wasn't sure that was as a wrangler.
21:09:35 <nirik> yeah, I said I can do it if need be, I guess it comes down to that, unless we want to mail devel-announce asking or something.
21:09:45 * stickster is worried that nirik wears a lot of hats already
21:09:50 * nirik is too. ;)
21:09:55 <stickster> "Doing more" isn't really the best option
21:10:18 <brunowolff> We may just need to assign us to do them. Someof the spins are just package lists which aren't to hard to check on that level.
21:11:01 <brunowolff> Some of the trickier ones, I might have trouble with.
21:11:07 <nirik> the problem with dividing that out is then we are never sure who's resposible for what and it's confusing.
21:11:11 <stickster> AIUI there ought to be one person that rel-eng can rely on to keep the active list of spins populated and ensure that the Spins SIG's self-setup process is followed for new spins
21:11:33 <brunowolff> I think assignments would be in a spins meeting.
21:11:36 <nirik> right.
21:11:58 <brunowolff> So we would know who is responsible for reviewing each spin for that release.
21:12:36 <nirik> well, reviewing new ones we could farm out, but spins wrangler does more than that...
21:13:03 * sdziallas looks. dammit, I always miss these meetings. sorry folks.
21:13:08 <brunowolff> Is there a comprehensive write up of what they need to do?
21:13:44 <stickster> There is not, from what I can tell brunowolff
21:13:55 <stickster> Although some duties are set out in the Spins process page
21:13:57 <nirik> not sure... but at least: process new spins wiki pages, talk to rel-eng about what spins are valid for a release, talk to board about trademark, etc.
21:13:58 <brunowolff> That in itself is a problem.
21:14:02 <nirik> yeah.
21:14:04 <stickster> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Spins_Process
21:14:11 <nirik> welcome sdziallas
21:14:21 <sdziallas> hey nirik!
21:14:49 <nirik> so, we could make such a page, but what do we do right now?
21:14:57 <stickster> So it seems to me that you're not going to get anyone to raise a hand for Spins wrangler until they know what they're in for :-)
21:15:09 <nirik> right.
21:15:14 <brunowolff> right
21:15:27 <stickster> Easy fix is to look at your own pages -- there are only a handful -- and see where, other than the process page, the wrangler has duties
21:15:42 <stickster> If none, then it's pretty cut and dried.
21:16:52 <nirik> yeah, not sure...
21:17:04 * stickster finds that a single point person makes it easier to take responsibility. If "everyone shares the responsibility" it's a high potential for confusion.
21:17:05 <brunowolff> I'll volunteer to do a draft for next week, covering what nirik said and what I can find in our pages.
21:17:20 <brunowolff> There really should be a central page for describing that position.
21:17:40 <nirik> brunowolff: if you can make such a page, I can then mail devel-announce or the like asking for someone to fill the role.
21:17:41 <brunowolff> I also note that some reviews can be farmed out to other spins members.
21:18:48 <nirik> I wonder if having a trac instance would help...
21:18:49 <brunowolff> We'll want to review it first, but I'll let the list know when there is a draft ready, so we don't have to wait for the next
21:18:55 <brunowolff> meeting to start review.
21:19:23 <nirik> yep
21:19:57 <brunowolff> #action bruno will write a draft spins wrangler page documenting duties of the position.
21:20:15 <brunowolff> #topic trac instance?
21:20:44 <brunowolff> I think getting a trac instance is a good idea. But I am not sure about the timing.
21:21:01 <brunowolff> I don't want to create more work when we seem to be short handed.
21:21:13 <nirik> well, we can do one whenever, but it would be good to have more people before then.
21:21:29 <brunowolff> Maybe just getting it created, and moving stuff over to it as seems warrented?
21:22:12 <nirik> it works somewhat ok for fesco to keep track of meeting items, etc.
21:22:16 <brunowolff> Would we piggyback on spin-kickstarts?
21:22:18 <nirik> sometimes things linger.
21:22:25 <nirik> yeah, we could
21:22:48 <brunowolff> trac instances are best for when things linger. If everything got done right away you wouldn't need them for tracking.
21:23:17 <brunowolff> We don't get a lot of external requests, so the other use of trac wouldn't be of that much use to us.
21:23:56 <brunowolff> The name doesn't match the sig, but since that's what we really produce, I think using that for the trac instance has some sense to it.
21:25:05 <brunowolff> If you guys think using the spin-kickstarts trac at fedora hosted will work, I check what's there and file an infrastructure ticket if need be?
21:25:24 <nirik> sure, can't hurt to have it ready if we decide to use it.
21:26:09 <brunowolff> #action brunowolff will make sure spin-kickstarts has a track instance for use for the spins sig
21:26:21 <brunowolff> #topic F14 schedule
21:26:37 <brunowolff> I haven't gotten around to looking at this closely.
21:26:38 <nirik> so, I had proposed dates.
21:26:47 <nirik> no one else suggested any. ;)
21:27:31 <brunowolff> maybe at this point we just try to follow the suggested dates and make corrections for the next go around if there are tight spots.
21:28:06 <brunowolff> We would need to document problems so that we can ask John to change things for F15.
21:28:41 <nirik> yeah.
21:28:47 <nirik> sdziallas: any input on the dates?
21:29:32 <nirik> I could paste them to channel, or fpaste them I guess.
21:29:45 <sdziallas> nirik: these are the ones from your email, right?
21:29:53 <nirik> yep
21:30:02 <sdziallas> nirik: I don't think I've actually found any reason to disagree with them, but let me look again :)
21:30:11 <nirik> MIA Spins thread
21:30:42 <sdziallas> We're pretty close to the submission deadline, right?
21:31:03 <brunowolff> I linked to one message there from the meeting page, but not the one with specific dates.
21:31:13 <sdziallas> (not implying anything negative there, just asking to make sure I got the right ones)
21:31:48 <nirik> 2010-07-06 - Deadline for submission of spins.
21:31:54 <brunowolff> I haven't been hearing proposals for new spins this cycle, it seems we will probably just be reviewing existing spins.
21:32:15 * sdziallas nods.
21:32:19 <nirik> there was some people talking about a music spin, but no idea if it's gone anywhere.
21:32:28 <nirik> oh, I also had:
21:32:30 <nirik> 2010-06-21 - All spins from previous cycle have updated wiki pages.
21:32:40 <nirik> which I haven't done for Xfce at least. ;(
21:32:45 <sdziallas> Heh, that... looks like at least my spins didn't make it, yet.
21:33:04 <sdziallas> Yeah. I'm hoping to hand the Design Suite off, but that's the only change spin-wise on my end.
21:33:41 <nirik> I'm also kinda unclear what we require for existing spins per cycle.
21:33:47 <brunowolff> I need to update games. I don't think I did the historical page yet pointing to the branched kickstart repo instead of master.
21:34:17 <nirik> update wiki page with any changes, but do we require a positive ack: "I am going to be doing this spin again"
21:34:20 <brunowolff> We are supposed to make a frozen page that will be linked from the current page.
21:34:23 <nirik> I kinda think we should.
21:34:41 * sdziallas nods.
21:34:43 <brunowolff> That way people are supposed to be able to see the old version of the page and of the kickstart file.
21:35:00 <nirik> brunowolff: could you document on the spins process page exactly how to do that?
21:35:06 <brunowolff> And I think we need to set back to spin in development.
21:35:08 <nirik> it confuses me each cycle and I have to figure it out again.
21:36:15 <nirik> how about I mail the spins sig list and just ask: what f13 spins intend to keep going for f14? (I suspect I will get no answers, but at least that will tell us something)
21:36:22 <brunowolff> #action bruno will review spin process for recurring spins to make sure enough details are there for people updating wiki pages.
21:36:36 <brunowolff> That was going to be my next thing.
21:36:36 <sdziallas> nirik: well if there are no answers, we might just compose none :)
21:36:57 <sdziallas> nirik: (and I realize that I've been pretty bad at email replies, too.)
21:36:58 <brunowolff> We want positive confirmation for continiuing spins.
21:36:59 <nirik> sdziallas: indeed. Less work for us, we can just shut down. ;)
21:37:07 * sdziallas grins. heh, yeah.
21:37:09 <sdziallas> brunowolff: +1
21:37:10 <nirik> I intend to continue the Xfce spin.
21:37:21 <brunowolff> Games will be there.
21:37:45 <sdziallas> SoaS too.
21:37:55 <nirik> anyhow, lets ask on list and see what response we get?
21:38:06 * sdziallas nods.
21:38:23 <brunowolff> OK, that's a start, but we need to record the answers so the info doesn't get lost.
21:39:02 <brunowolff> We'll need to later compare the responses to the spin pages to try harder to reach people who haven't responded.
21:39:26 <nirik> yeah, the mailing list keeps an archive, but yeah.
21:40:06 <brunowolff> The message should ask for people to respond whether or not they plan to continue the spin.
21:40:30 * nirik has a draft up now, can send in a minute.
21:40:35 <brunowolff> We also might have spin maintainers that aren't on the list, even though they are supposed to be.
21:41:07 <nirik> Do we have a list of all the f13 ones?
21:41:22 * nirik can confirm that the xfce nightly does not boot in a vm here.
21:41:22 <brunowolff> #action nirik Will send a message to spin owners to see if they are continuing their spins.
21:41:39 <nirik> got it: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Spins_Fedora_13
21:42:09 <brunowolff> Do you know why?
21:42:49 <brunowolff> I tested using a spin with the new squashfs and spins-kickstart stuff with a mostly F13 system and it worked.
21:42:59 <nirik> no, no idea. will need to dig more. It's saying 'no root found'
21:43:09 <brunowolff> So I am thinking it isn't the stuff I changed, but I don't know for sure.
21:43:42 <brunowolff> That might be dracut related.
21:43:48 <nirik> yes, it could be.
21:43:52 <nirik> its in that area.
21:44:41 <brunowolff> I do have an F14 system that is booting and had a kernel update within the last week.
21:45:38 <brunowolff> We can look at this over the next week and report back.
21:46:38 <brunowolff> #topic alpha and beta
21:47:00 <brunowolff> Are we going to do anything special for the alpha and beta or just point people to the nightly spins?
21:47:41 <nirik> well, I think the nightlies are mostly ok.
21:47:43 <brunowolff> I think the nightlies are good enough and in some ways better.
21:47:47 <nirik> the only problem being that they are moving targets.
21:49:03 <brunowolff> I think the issue was it worth the QA and releng work to do those in addition.
21:50:00 <nirik> I don't think it is personally.
21:50:57 <brunowolff> We didn't seem to get complaints when we did that for F12 (though the decision was ad hoc), at least that I heard about.
21:51:47 <brunowolff> Unless I hear dissent soon I'll have that as an agreed item.
21:52:14 <nirik> ok
21:52:43 <brunowolff> #agreed There will not be special spin images for the alpha and beta for F14.
21:53:06 <brunowolff> #action brunowolff will email releng to let them know we are doing that again.
21:53:22 <nirik> sounds good.
21:53:57 <brunowolff> Times about up and I think we covered the most important stuff. Anything else that someone wants covered today?
21:54:12 <nirik> let me check the wiki page again...
21:54:18 <brunowolff> #action brunowolff will update the agenda page to reflect today's meeting.
21:55:06 <brunowolff> #action brunowolff will email out the meeting notes to spins
21:55:31 <nirik> FYI, the spin1 machine has had some lockups/crashes, so sometimes spins have been not composing.
21:55:51 <nirik> It's been stable for the last few days on the most recent f13 kernel, so hopefully we are ok moving forward.
21:56:06 <brunowolff> Thanks. I was wondering what happened.
21:56:51 <brunowolff> I'll call this one in 30 if there isn't anything else?
21:57:09 * nirik has nothing
21:57:12 <brunowolff> Thanks for attending today!
21:57:29 <brunowolff> #endmeeting