23:00:06 <Sparks> #startmeeting Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings
23:00:06 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Jun 30 23:00:06 2010 UTC.  The chair is Sparks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
23:00:06 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
23:00:07 <Sparks> #meetingname Fedora Docs
23:00:07 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_docs'
23:00:07 <Sparks> #topic Roll Call
23:00:12 * rudi is here
23:00:15 * radsy is here
23:00:20 * Sparks is here
23:00:23 * crantila is here
23:00:38 * jjmcd 
23:00:48 * joat is here
23:00:51 * dafrito is here
23:01:13 * Johny_V is here
23:01:14 * JustinClift is here
23:01:23 * bethlynn is here
23:02:17 * stickster 
23:02:25 <Sparks> Wow, that's an awesome list of contributors!
23:02:51 <Sparks> Let's get started.
23:02:58 <Sparks> #topic Follow up on last week's action items
23:05:20 <Sparks_too> Grrr...  Sorry, my connection just went haywire
23:05:29 * Tsagadai is here :)
23:05:56 <Sparks> Okay
23:06:17 <Sparks> rudi_ and nb to come back with additional information on getting docs-writers building packages in koji for docs.fp.o
23:06:29 <Sparks> rudi: Have you and nb figured out anything on this?
23:06:59 <rudi> .
23:07:16 <rudi> I finally cornered the sysadmin who I needed to talk to
23:07:33 <rudi> And I think I finally have all the facts I need to start hammering out a proposal
23:07:46 <rudi> I expect to have that written up this week
23:08:19 <Sparks> rudi: Excellent
23:08:35 <Sparks> quaid: Are you here?
23:08:54 <Sparks> Oh, he's NOT here
23:09:01 <Sparks> according to the message on #f-dos
23:09:03 <Sparks> docs
23:09:10 <Sparks> #action quaid to bring to the list a discussion about Beacon and web-based XML editors for Docs use.
23:09:17 <Sparks> #action quaid will kindly ask poelcat to put up taskjuggler schedule sources in a f'hosted repo, pref. git
23:09:34 <Sparks> #action Sparks to discuss bug maintenance on the list
23:09:46 <Sparks> I just need to sit down and write that... I hope to get to that tonight
23:09:53 <Sparks> Sparks Send email to list proposing magazine article work about the guides and docs.fp.o
23:10:02 <Sparks> #link https://fedorahosted.org/marketing-team/ticket/122
23:10:13 <Sparks> I'm working with the Marketing Team on this.
23:10:21 <Sparks> I'll bring more back when I know more.
23:10:29 <Sparks> Sparks to discuss document versioning on the list... when is a doc a certain version?
23:10:37 <Sparks> This is an ongoing discussion on the list...
23:10:47 <Sparks> #topic Do we still need a CMS?
23:11:08 <Sparks> There was some discussion on the list about this topic...
23:11:27 <Sparks> I don't think we've actually come up with a consensus or anything
23:11:39 <Sparks> and I think we're waiting for some feedback from quaid and jjmcd
23:11:52 <jjmcd> And I have some work to do on that yet
23:12:00 <Sparks> How about we table this discussion until the end of July?
23:12:17 <Sparks> any problems with that?
23:13:11 <Sparks> #agreed CMS decisions will be tabled until the end of July
23:13:22 <Sparks> #info Discussions continue on the Docs list.
23:13:30 <Sparks> #topic Fedora 14 Schedule
23:13:45 <Sparks> jjmcd: I think you and poelcat have been working on this.
23:13:59 <jjmcd> I noticed rudi had a post today, too
23:14:07 <Sparks> I know rudi sent a message to the list earlier but I haven't had a chance to read it yet
23:14:09 <jjmcd> So at this point I think we are all waiting on poelcat
23:14:25 <Sparks> rudi: Did you have any input that you'd like to discuss here?
23:14:50 <rudi> Well I can basically summarize the changes I requested
23:15:12 <Sparks> ok
23:15:25 <rudi> 1. clarified when we would be providing new POTs to L10N and when we would be refreshing them
23:15:36 <rudi> 2. establishing a deadline for branching docs
23:16:17 <rudi> 3. inserted points where we should be making noise on announce-list and devel-list to get eyes on drafts
23:16:32 <rudi> (and in typing that I just realised we probably want to notify test-list too)
23:16:38 <rudi> That's it in a nutshell
23:16:50 <Sparks> excellent
23:17:26 <Sparks> Okay, I guess we wait for poelcat
23:17:33 <rudi> yep
23:17:48 * Sparks notes that poelcat has been very timely on making these changes and has been helping us out quite a bit
23:18:26 <Sparks> Anything else on this topic?
23:18:42 <Sparks> #topic Release Notes
23:19:00 <Sparks> jjmcd: When are you going to start asking for input?
23:19:17 <jjmcd> Whenever it shows on the schedule :-)
23:19:35 <Sparks> Okay then
23:19:36 <jjmcd> Our trigger is the featrure pages
23:19:36 <Sparks> :)
23:19:45 <Sparks> And that's coming up soon, correct?
23:19:49 <jjmcd> although I have asked to add a recruit beat writers and
23:20:00 <jjmcd> a notify dev of coming alpha RNs points
23:20:06 <jjmcd> I think it is still a few weeks off
23:20:26 <jjmcd> But not so many weeks
23:20:40 <Sparks> ya
23:20:46 <Sparks> okay, need anything from me/us?
23:20:56 <jjmcd> No, right now my focus is d-p-r
23:21:15 <Sparks> excellent
23:21:19 <Sparks> anyone have anything?
23:21:29 <jjmcd> check my planet post today
23:21:33 <JustinClift> Thought - whoever does the magazine articles, needs to really make a clear point that people can get their favourite topics written about in the Fedora and RHEL manuals if they're willing to lend a hand.
23:22:11 * jjmcd wonders whether Sparks will need help with that
23:22:18 <Sparks> with the article?
23:22:28 <Sparks> Let's wait until the end of the meeting to discuss that
23:22:32 <JustinClift> :)
23:22:39 <Sparks> jjmcd: I'll catch up on the Planet this evening
23:22:43 <Sparks> Okay, moving on
23:22:51 <Sparks> #topic Guide Status
23:23:15 <Sparks> A couple of weeks ago I asked everyone to populate the F14 Goals wiki page
23:23:26 <Sparks> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_guide_goals_for_F14
23:23:47 <Sparks> Lots of great stuff went up on the page
23:24:27 <Sparks> I'd also like to see items being struck through when they are completed
23:24:53 <Sparks> Anyone want to talk about what they are doing with their guide?
23:24:57 <crantila> .
23:24:58 <Sparks> or anything else they are working on?
23:25:08 <Sparks> crantila: Okay... you have the floor
23:25:38 <crantila> the Musicians' Guide is progressing, and as of very early this morning, full draft chapters are starting to be completed
23:26:04 <crantila> I'll be asking in testing@ and #fedora-docs, but any body who would like to help with proof-reading is welcome to join in
23:26:23 <crantila> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Crantila/FSC/Testing contains more information, and will be updated as development continues
23:26:47 <crantila> so if you have a few minutes, please stop by, read a section, and send feedback - thanks!
23:27:05 <Sparks> crantila: are you checking the source into fedorahosted?
23:27:15 <Sparks> crantila: Or...  where is the source being stored?
23:27:17 <crantila> it's all still on the Wiki, in my namespace
23:27:22 <Sparks> Oh
23:27:33 <rudi> Sparks -- crantila has hosting space organised
23:27:33 <crantila> conversion to DocBook XML will take place in a few weeks
23:27:42 <rudi> For when the conversion happens :)
23:27:51 <Sparks> perfect
23:28:11 <Sparks> crantila: could you provide the link here so we'll know where to go snoop?
23:28:52 <rudi> Sparks -- it's all on the Guides table :)
23:28:54 <crantila> everything is linked from the page above.  When things move onto Trac, I'll link to that, as well
23:29:14 <crantila> plus the Guides table
23:29:36 <Sparks> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Crantila/FSC
23:29:40 <Sparks> Cool
23:29:45 <Sparks> anyone else?
23:30:49 <Sparks> I'll point out that the translation quick start guide has been updated to include instructions for translating pages in the wiki
23:31:22 <Sparks> Okay, moving on
23:31:33 <Sparks> #topic Outstanding BZ Tickets
23:31:41 <Sparks> #link https://bugzilla.redhat.com/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&classification=Fedora&product=Fedora%20Documentation&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED
23:32:06 <Sparks> #info 105 Active Bugs
23:32:33 <Sparks> #info 28 New Bugs
23:32:59 <Sparks> I was supposed to write something up on the list a couple weeks ago...
23:33:29 <Sparks> but let's do a quick discussion here and then we can move the more-complete-thought to the list for further polishing
23:33:45 <Sparks> Here is my thought:
23:34:05 <Sparks> 1) When a ticket comes in it should be assigned to a handler within a week.
23:34:31 <Sparks> This shows the reporter that we are paying attention and care that they reported.
23:34:51 <Sparks> 2) Regular (monthly?) updates should be posted to the ticket.
23:35:13 <Sparks> We have some old tickets and I'm not sure that we haven't forgotten about them.
23:35:31 <Sparks> But we need to stay on top of these bugs and show that we are working on them.
23:35:43 <rudi> Sparks +1
23:35:57 <crantila> nothing's worse than a bug report that goes ignored
23:36:02 <Sparks> 3) Attach the fix to the bug.
23:36:15 <Sparks> That makes sure there is documentation of the fix.
23:36:39 <Sparks> 4) Note the bug number in the repo commit.
23:36:58 <Sparks> This allows us to be able to know why we made a change
23:37:10 <Sparks> 5) Use the QA.
23:37:45 <rudi> (bug numbers should also go into the Revision History of the doc)
23:37:52 <Sparks> This is going to be something BIG IMO.  There is a field on every ticket with who should be QAing the ticket to make sure that the fix is proper.
23:37:55 <Sparks> rudi: Good point
23:38:03 <Sparks> The problem is no one is doing the QA.
23:38:23 <Sparks> QA could be as simple as a proof reader
23:38:37 <Sparks> but it should be done.
23:38:52 <rudi> Could we maybe ask on test-list?
23:39:05 <Sparks> 6) Offer the fix to the reporter and make sure they are happy/understand the fix.
23:39:08 <Sparks> rudi: We could
23:39:38 <Sparks> If we didn't actually fix the problem then we shouldn't close the ticket.
23:40:03 <Sparks> 7) Close the ticket after receiving feedback from the reporter.  If no feedback is received close the ticket after 30 days.
23:40:15 <Sparks> Anyone have any input or modifications?
23:40:46 <rudi> 6 should probably use the NEEDINFO flag
23:40:50 * poelcat sees channel highlights and confirms that I will make changes by friday
23:40:59 <crantila> I like (6), and I wonder if (7) couldn't be 15 days, which seems to be what the rest of FP does
23:41:25 <rudi> I think if NEEDSINFO is set, it closes automatically after a while?
23:41:41 <stickster> rudi: I don't think it's automatic
23:41:42 <Sparks> poelcat: Thank you!
23:41:50 <stickster> I think it's used as a sign for triagers though
23:41:56 <stickster> At least on the Fedora side
23:42:15 <poelcat> the only auto-close is EOL
23:42:20 <Sparks> crantila: 15 days is fine.  I just pulled 30 out the air
23:42:20 <rudi> Ah OK
23:42:53 <dafrito> Perhaps ON_QA is a better choice?
23:43:09 <Sparks> dafrito: This should be post QA
23:43:16 <rudi> NEEDSINFO is just a flag, not a state
23:43:19 <Sparks> I think there is a setting after that... right?
23:43:28 <rudi> Sparks VERIFIED
23:43:52 <Sparks> rudi: There you go
23:44:24 <Sparks> whoever QAs the bug would mark it VERIFIED
23:44:38 <Sparks> then we point it to the reporter who would probably just leave a note
23:44:46 <Sparks> at which point we say CLOSED
23:44:51 <Sparks> correct?
23:44:57 <rudi> Yeah
23:45:13 * Sparks is glad that zodbot is taking notes
23:45:43 <Sparks> So is that acceptable to everyone?
23:46:20 * Sparks takes the silence to mean it is acceptable
23:46:35 <Sparks> I'll take this to the list to get more eyes on it.
23:46:38 <dafrito> I like it; it's similar how bugs work elsewhere in Fedora, AFAIK
23:46:44 <dafrito> which I think is positive
23:47:07 <Sparks> Next week I'll bring it back one more time to make sure we are all in agreement and then I'll write it up on the wiki and make it "policy"
23:47:11 <Sparks> dafrito: agreed
23:47:26 <Sparks> Anyone else have anything bug related?
23:47:58 <Sparks> #topic Open floor discussion
23:48:10 <Sparks> Someone brought up the article
23:48:34 <Sparks> I talked with rbergeron and she is going to do an interview with me and a couple other people and try to...
23:48:49 <Sparks> get a few stories together that we can publish internally or externally.
23:49:13 <Sparks> #link https://fedorahosted.org/marketing-team/ticket/122
23:49:33 <Sparks> We talked about several ideas including:
23:49:51 <Sparks> * Docs from the perspective of a Fedora user/contributor
23:50:05 <Sparks> * Docs from the perspective of a FLOSS community member
23:50:18 <Sparks> * Docs using Publican and the background on Publican
23:50:45 <Sparks> if anyone would like to make further suggestions adding on to the ticket would be appropriate.
23:51:03 <bethlynn1> I am interested in being involved as a long time floss community member who landed in fedora docs as a first software project involvement
23:51:14 <rudi> Oooh -- this could be a great impetus for RyanLerch to finish his comic!
23:51:27 <JustinClift> rudi: Definitely.
23:51:28 <stickster> bethlynn1: You would make a great person to participate, I think
23:51:34 <Sparks> rudi: Yikes
23:51:53 <Sparks> stickster: Agreed
23:52:11 <JustinClift> The article(s), if pitched correctly, should be able to get a large number of technical experienced people to contribute.
23:52:14 <bethlynn1> I've found Fedora to be refreshingly open to participation with people operating under a healthy paradigm of abundance
23:52:21 <Sparks> #action Sparks to add bethlynn1 to the Docs interview ticket
23:52:36 <rudi> I'm always happy to talk up Publican :)
23:52:56 <Sparks> bethlynn1: well, if that's not a quote to bring out in an article I don't know what is
23:53:07 <Sparks> rudi: I pointed rbergeron towards you and Jeff.
23:53:13 <rudi> Cool :)
23:53:41 <JustinClift> Can we make suggestions for how to pitch the article to get more contributors?
23:54:04 <Sparks> JustinClift: Sure.  I'll direct you to rbergeron who is heading up this project.
23:54:11 * Sparks is just a pawn in this game
23:54:19 <JustinClift> k
23:54:45 <Sparks> Okay, anyone have anything else?
23:54:58 <Tsagadai> that sounds like a great idea :)
23:55:03 <Sparks> stickster: I have a question for you.
23:55:51 <Sparks> stickster: Since you are changing roles...  does this mean we'll get more work out of you here where your roots lay?
23:56:14 <stickster> Sparks: Unfortunately, not likely -- most of my job is going to lie in the RHEL side of the house
23:56:17 <bethlynn1> I can report on my TLC for SELinux but I can do that in the -docs channel
23:56:50 <Sparks> TLC?
23:57:00 * bethlynn1 notes that we've got 3 minutes left
23:57:08 <Sparks> stickster: Well, as long as you don't forget about us...  :)
23:57:09 <bethlynn1> tender loving care
23:57:13 <Sparks> Oh!
23:57:17 * stickster will always be around to pitch in here and there :-)
23:57:37 <Sparks> bethlynn1: you can give us a summary!
23:57:45 <stickster> I feel like the Docs team has really found its own critical mass that enjoys a life separate from us "old guys"
23:58:10 <Sparks> then why is jjmcd still around?
23:58:13 <Sparks> :)
23:58:16 <jjmcd> :-)
23:58:32 <jjmcd> Because you haven't found anyone dumb enough to take the release notes
23:58:45 <Sparks> jjmcd: That's valid
23:58:56 <Sparks> jjmcd: But since quaid isn't here tonight...
23:59:04 <bethlynn1> quaid encouraged me to post to -marketing list and marketing wiki... so I did. That got Dan Walsh's attention but Dan is on vacation until  mid July
23:59:36 <Sparks> bethlynn1: Got a link?
23:59:50 <bethlynn1> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing_SeLinux
00:00:01 <Sparks> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing_SeLinux
00:00:21 <Sparks> bethlynn1: So I guess you'll be following up with Dan then.
00:00:50 <stickster> Yeah, Dan's on a hard-earned vacation but when he returns, I hooked them up
00:00:59 <Sparks> excellent
00:01:05 <Sparks> okay, we are out of time!
00:01:07 <bethlynn1> yup. We setup a time to talk about it: July 16
00:01:08 <stickster> bethlynn1: Dan's a great guy and loves helping people get the most out of SELinux
00:01:20 <stickster> Of course, you met him at SELF so you know that :-)
00:01:20 <Sparks> I really appreciate everyone's participation tonight!  Great crowd!
00:01:30 <bethlynn1> do we need to get outta here...
00:01:39 * bethlynn1 feels the gong coming
00:01:49 <Sparks> Yep, the gong is coming
00:01:50 <crantila> the cleaning crew is waiting outside
00:02:06 <Sparks> further discussion and doughnuts served in #fedora-docs
00:02:09 <Sparks> Thanks everyone!
00:02:13 <Sparks> #endmeeting