16:00:01 <nirik> #startmeeting IRC Support SIG (2010-07-01)
16:00:01 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Jul  1 16:00:01 2010 UTC.  The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:00:01 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:00:01 <nirik> #meetingname irc-support-sig
16:00:01 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'irc-support-sig'
16:00:01 <nirik> #topic init process
16:00:10 <nirik> who all is around for an irc support sig meeting?
16:00:15 <DiscordianUK> 
16:00:16 <plarsen> here
16:00:31 <zcat> hi
16:01:01 * dcr226 waves
16:01:22 * Sonar_Guy 
16:02:41 <nirik> ok, I guess we can go ahead ans start in...
16:02:46 <nirik> #topic Week in Review
16:02:54 <nirik> http://fedora.theglaserfamily.org/ircstats/fedora-weekly.html
16:03:04 <nirik> Anything anyone has to point out from the last week?
16:03:58 <nirik> There was the evolution broken deps issue which casued some pain...
16:04:07 <nirik> and it seemed like a pretty busy week.
16:05:09 <nirik> ok, if nothing else, we'll move on.
16:05:28 <Southern_Gentlem> nirik,  but about normal for that type of thing
16:05:55 <nirik> #topic Emabrgoed Countries policy
16:06:22 <nirik> so, the question came up about what to do when someone from a embargoed nation was asking for support
16:06:44 <nirik> we asked for thoughts from legal
16:07:20 <zcat> i think the summary on that was redhat employees can't; everyone else can (and should)
16:07:35 <EvilBob> I disagree with zcat
16:07:37 <plarsen> zcat, +1
16:07:41 <nirik> yeah, from their point of view... they have no control over non redhat employees.
16:07:47 <EvilBob> it is up to the individual
16:07:52 <Southern_Gentlem> well redhat legal are only concerned about redhat employees
16:07:54 <dcr226> EvilBob, +1
16:07:58 <DiscordianUK> It looks like redhat employees cannot
16:08:06 <nirik> so, that brings us up to what we would like to do on this? should we have a policy? what should it be?
16:08:06 <EvilBob> they are still in Export controlled nations
16:08:21 <DiscordianUK> And everyone should act as per their conscience
16:08:26 <EvilBob> the way I read the law they should not have the software in the first place
16:08:34 <plarsen> EvilBob, that's what zcat said? Redhat doesn't prevent non-redhat employees to talk with them. Whether you choose to do so, is an entire different matter?
16:08:40 <nirik> EvilBob: yeah, not direct from the us anyhow...
16:08:48 <dcr226> plarsen, thats not what was said ;-)
16:09:01 <DiscordianUK> That is how I read the law too
16:09:06 <EvilBob> nirik: please read the part of the notice about "reexport"
16:09:25 <EvilBob> this is handing terrorist encryption technology
16:09:39 <zcat> oy...
16:09:43 <EvilBob> sugar coat it how you want
16:09:45 <nirik> in what context? link please?
16:09:50 <plarsen> EvilBob, there's nothing in the state departments writing that states ALL individuals for (Iraq in this case) cannot do it. It has lists of specific individuals and associations that are blocked. So it's not a blanket rejection of the whole country.  It's however simpler for RH and other entities to over-simplify by saying all.
16:09:56 <EvilBob> Paul needs to be the nice guy, I don't
16:09:59 <zcat> EvilBob, do you really believe that? water's wet. people are people.
16:10:12 <dcr226> there is also nothing that says ops _have_ to support anyone
16:10:14 <dcr226> afaik
16:10:21 <plarsen> dcr226, Well, I missed his ( ) sorry
16:10:22 <nirik> dcr226: very true.
16:10:23 <DiscordianUK> and the US in't the world
16:10:31 <dcr226> regardless of legalities
16:10:48 <nirik> anyhow, a) do we need/want a policy here? b) do people have proposals on what that should be?
16:11:02 <Southern_Gentlem> dcr226,  that where i am leaving it , if i know they are from an embargoed country i a cannot help them
16:11:07 * dcr226 doesn't think its needed - its upto the op
16:11:23 <zcat> in any case... put me down on the 'terrorist' sympathizer list. /me is done on this. :)
16:11:31 <dcr226> zcat, Heh
16:11:35 <Sonar_Guy> nirik: I do not think we need a policy, but I think that all Ops need to be aware that there are legal repercussions
16:11:36 <DiscordianUK> I have a question are Iraq and Iran prevented from accesssing the Redhat.Fedora websites?
16:11:40 <EvilBob> Fedora's software and/or technical data may NOT be exported/reexported, either directly or indirectly, to the following U.S. embargoed or restricted destinations:
16:11:41 <EvilBob> Cuba, Iran, Iraq, North Korea, Sudan or Syria.
16:11:48 <nirik> DiscordianUK: they are I think.
16:11:53 <EvilBob> either directly or indirectly
16:11:55 <plarsen> my oppinion is, that as long as fedoraproject.org doesn't block downloads to these countries, we can without problems answer questions about fedora. Now asking questions about encryption and other sensitive stuff would be a different matter.
16:12:10 <nirik> EvilBob: what is that from exactly?
16:12:11 <dcr226> plarsen, not mutually exclusive imo
16:12:11 <skvidal> umm indirectly?
16:12:13 <skvidal> that's hilarious
16:12:25 <EvilBob> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal/Export
16:12:34 <Southern_Gentlem> plarsen,  do they block
16:12:34 <nirik> plarsen: I think they are blocked... but I could be wrong.
16:12:35 * skvidal waits for anyone to give a flying fig that someone in iran can download fedora from someone in france or germany
16:12:42 <EvilBob> skvidal: it's from your employers legal page
16:12:48 * skvidal doesn't care
16:12:50 * dcr226 offers skvidal a fig
16:12:54 <EvilBob> No one cares
16:13:02 * skvidal isn't disobeying any rules
16:13:04 <nirik> EvilBob: right. Thats a US law. Good luck enforcing it in a place that doesn't agree to it. ;)
16:13:12 <skvidal> nirik: exactly
16:13:12 <EvilBob> no one cared before planes crashed in to new york either
16:13:12 <plarsen> Southern_Gentlem, That would mean every mirror blocks? I haven't seen that; knowing people in that area, they don't have a problem getting open source.
16:13:18 <skvidal> EvilBob: are you serious?
16:13:23 <EvilBob> I am serious
16:13:27 <ender2070> or Canada
16:13:29 <nirik> anyhow, can we move back to my question?
16:13:30 <skvidal> EvilBob: b/c comments like that make me not take you seriously
16:13:34 <nirik> EvilBob: do you think there should be a policy?
16:13:44 * plarsen hands nirik some cognac for his coffee
16:13:47 <EvilBob> nirik: there should
16:13:47 <skvidal> "if the terrorist can download fedora then we've lost!"
16:13:51 <ender2070> OpenBSD is based in Canada, it avoids the dumb US export laws
16:13:57 <dcr226> nirik, no point in a policy imo, everyone has a choice whom they support. advisory notes maybe
16:13:58 <nirik> EvilBob: and what do you think it should be?
16:14:04 <EvilBob> all IP blocks assigned to the restricted nations should be banned
16:14:06 <skvidal> dcr226: indeed
16:14:23 <Khaytsus> EvilBob: You going to maintain that list of IPs?
16:14:33 <DiscordianUK> Clearly someone should tell freenode then
16:14:36 <dcr226> nirik, maybe something relaying the information regarding T6 as described in the email we received
16:14:41 <EvilBob> Khaytsus: it's easy enough to look up
16:14:51 <EvilBob> at least we would be doing our part
16:15:07 <ender2070> Making sure the terrorists don't win (TM)
16:15:11 <pingou> putting all everyone in the same basket
16:15:26 <nirik> a blocklist is very easy to get past...
16:15:40 <nirik> also, with cloaks it's going to fail, right?
16:15:41 <EvilBob> ender2070: or keeping the little guy down if you prefer
16:15:57 <EvilBob> nirik: at least we are doing the least we can
16:15:58 <plarsen> heh - they're blocking us :)  www.centeralclick.ir/mirror2_mirrors_tds_net  *grin*
16:16:02 <DiscordianUK> My view is that the policy should be up to the conscience of the individual
16:16:19 <dcr226> DiscordianUK, +1
16:16:25 <skvidal> DiscordianUK: and/or their own local/national laws - and however much they wish to respect them. yes +1
16:16:37 <ender2070> DiscordianUK, +1
16:16:50 * nirik nods. I think thats a good way to approach it for now.
16:16:51 <plarsen> DiscordianUK, +1
16:16:54 <Khaytsus> How do the Fedora mirrors do it?  Do they actively block it?
16:17:01 <EvilBob> NOTE: skvidal is not part of this group he has no voting voice in this issue
16:17:02 <dcr226> DiscordianUK, to include guidance notes for ops who don't understand the law
16:17:16 <DiscordianUK> +1
16:17:18 <skvidal> EvilBob: NOTE: I don't care - I like to chime in when silliness is going on :)
16:17:19 <EvilBob> thank you for your input
16:17:51 * nirik can't recall the details of the blocking...
16:17:58 <EvilBob> skvidal: Just for the record, Your employer says you can not help them
16:17:59 <nirik> I can find out and get back to folks if we care.
16:18:13 <plarsen> I somehow find it hard to believe fedoraproject.org blocks when pages like this http://veyq.ir/search?q=Fedora+Dvd+Download&ln=en&f=rs referes to it??
16:18:13 <skvidal> mmcgrath: do you know if our public mirrors are blocking any ip ranges?
16:18:16 * dcr226 doesn't care - easy to bypass
16:18:17 <EvilBob> skvidal: see Paul for more information
16:18:18 <skvidal> mmcgrath: or if Mirrormanager does
16:18:22 <mmcgrath> skvidal: nope
16:18:24 <ender2070> If they come from a restricted country it should reroute them to Canada
16:18:28 <ender2070> ;)
16:18:30 <mmcgrath> they don't, the master mirror does or did at one time.
16:18:31 <skvidal> EvilBob: I'm not speaking for the company I work for
16:18:32 <nirik> ender2070: :)
16:18:39 <skvidal> EvilBob: nor did I say anything about what I would do
16:18:59 <EvilBob> skvidal: Legal is speaking for you
16:19:27 <EvilBob> Lets think on policy for a week
16:19:36 <dcr226> seriously, if someone was a threat - blocking an ip range isn't going to stop them imo
16:19:44 <dcr226> EvilBob, +1 / guidance notes :)
16:19:56 <nirik> EvilBob: if you like... it's sounding like you might be the only one on the side of active blocking though.
16:19:58 <skvidal> dcr226: there's no threat- it's just security theater
16:19:58 <pingou> it's probably going to do more damage than anything else
16:20:02 <EvilBob> we just got the info from Paul since the last meeting would should have a full week to digest based on our SOP
16:20:14 <plarsen> dcr226, +1; regardless if there's a block or not, the open/free software would still be available. Nothing prevents nations outside the US to provide mirrors of fedora and other open source to US embargoed countries?
16:20:28 <dcr226> plarsen, there is
16:20:33 <EvilBob> nirik: opinions can change in a week and will allow some that are not here a chance to speak up
16:20:34 <Khaytsus> I say this stay an open item and move on
16:20:35 <dcr226> re-export
16:20:46 <nirik> plarsen: their interaction with us laws is the only thing. Or their own laws.
16:20:49 <DiscordianUK> for example someone who wanted X run is in a different situation from someone wanted CUDA running
16:20:51 <plarsen> dcr226, how are you going to hold a chineese accountable for providing a fedora mirror?
16:20:55 <nirik> ok, lets move on.
16:21:02 <Sonar_Gal> ty
16:21:09 <dcr226> plarsen, no idea, but I don't wear the flashing blue hat :)
16:21:11 <skvidal> hey - there went the new FPL
16:21:23 * dcr226 moves on
16:21:27 <nirik> oh no, hope we didn't drive him off. ;)
16:21:36 <dcr226> Heh
16:21:39 * Sonar_Guy Moves on too!
16:21:45 <plarsen> not giving our new pres. a good impression are we
16:21:48 * plarsen moves on
16:22:07 <EvilBob> plarsen: you're a ... GAH
16:22:10 <nirik> #topic Complaints / Complaint process
16:22:37 <nirik> So, in the last week we had an issue with someone complaining about how a question was answered and it blew up into a flame fest.
16:22:52 <nirik> Our current "process" for complaints is:
16:23:27 <nirik> note it in #fedora-ops / rant about it there.
16:23:34 <DiscordianUK> we keep getting these
16:23:36 <nirik> then complain to the ops mail alias.
16:23:57 <nirik> I find this process draining and negative. :)
16:24:02 <EvilBob> DiscordianUK: and more than one from the same user
16:24:05 <plarsen> nirik, is the process documented somewhere?
16:24:10 <DiscordianUK> The current one has blown up a massive size
16:24:18 <EvilBob> DiscordianUK: but the user is not the problem....
16:24:19 <nirik> plarsen: no, it's not really. And I think we should find a better one before we do.
16:24:28 <nirik> I think we can learn from complaints.
16:24:45 <plarsen> nirik, we should learn from the problems - making the into opportunities.
16:24:46 <nirik> If they are constructive
16:25:00 <nirik> plarsen: +1
16:25:02 <DiscordianUK> People keep suggesting an IRC Council
16:25:14 <Sonar_Gal> no
16:25:20 <nirik> yeah, I don't think thats a good idea (depending on how it's implemented)
16:25:33 <EvilBob> a bunch/group of people that have never done the 'job'
16:25:36 <plarsen> Too much red tape will kill it.
16:25:45 <EvilBob> excellent idea </sarcasm>
16:25:50 <nirik> If we have a council thats looking at all the activity in #fedora for issues, I would rather they just help.
16:25:58 <DiscordianUK> as it is they get a chance to talk here
16:26:02 <Khaytsus> None of us are as dumb as all of us   <-- council
16:26:09 <DiscordianUK> This is IRC people
16:26:24 <nirik> so, possible ideas for complaints/issues:
16:26:34 <DiscordianUK> Most of IRC you upset the ops , you're history, done
16:26:46 <Khaytsus> When I was growing up, you had to use telnet to irc and you got hacked before y ou changed your nick on login.
16:27:06 <dcr226> Khaytsus, was everything black and white back then (or green and black?)
16:27:12 <Khaytsus> dcr226: green and black
16:27:15 <nirik> - Setup a alias/private list with just a few people on it. Those folks get complaints and answer them and pass along a boiled down/constructive version to everyone else to learn from.
16:27:16 <Khaytsus> dcr226: And uphill both ways
16:27:23 <dcr226> Khaytsus, Heh
16:27:32 <DiscordianUK> raw irc
16:27:36 <plarsen> DiscordianUK, but the difference in fedora is, that we're not there as "ops"; we don't present ourselves as such until there is a problem. So you can't really use the "if you bug the guys with the hats you're out" method.
16:27:49 <nirik> - Ask the board if they would have ideas or people who would want to deal with such things and pass us back feedback.
16:28:05 <EvilBob> What business is it of the boards?
16:28:14 <DiscordianUK> No I'm not suggesting that just comparing with other channels etc
16:28:14 <EvilBob> it is an unofficial channel
16:28:28 <EvilBob> lets not forget that
16:28:55 <nirik> sure, but they might have good ideas on how to handle this based on other areas they have dealt with before.
16:29:08 <plarsen> Why can't it be as simple as when someone has identified him/herself as an op, any user can talk to him/her (in pm) about it? Or simply make #fedora-ops where we direct people to go if they're having problems with access/issues in #fedora?
16:29:18 <EvilBob> If they want a word in it's operation they should make it official and put it in people's job description to help out
16:29:38 <dcr226> plarsen, not cool, sending people onto -ops imo (even though I have suggested it in the past)
16:29:40 <EvilBob> plarsen: private communications are a bad idea
16:29:44 <nirik> plarsen: because talking to the person involved from the person involved leads to heat and lack of learning from either side, IMHO
16:30:20 <mock> join #fedora-courtroom
16:30:22 <nirik> EvilBob: "unofficial" doesn't mean that the board has no say. We represent Fedora when we run the channel too.
16:30:31 <plarsen> nirik, that's only a problem if the issue is with an OP; are most issues a "user vs. op" issue? In that case, I would think there's an OP problem. Not a user one.
16:30:42 * dcr226 votes +1 for mail alias, and -200 for council
16:30:48 * Sonar_Gal swaps out the frying pan for a gavel!!!
16:30:49 <nirik> plarsen: hard to say, it's various.
16:31:07 <EvilBob> plarsen: yeah users are never wrong
16:31:12 <Southern_Gentlem> -200 for council
16:31:17 <EvilBob> it's always the ops issue
16:31:23 * mock signs up online for fedora-law-school
16:31:25 <nirik> a) user complaining about a ban/kick when they were doing something clearly bad, b) someone complaining about the tone/way something was answered by another user, etc.
16:31:48 <plarsen> nirik, you'll only have an issue talking about moderation rulings in #fedora-ops if the two in conflict are both present?
16:31:49 <Southern_Gentlem> EvilBob,  no way that that fedora call an irc channel official because that opens up alot of legal issues
16:32:12 <plarsen> nirik, if that's what you want, you need separate arbitrations and a counsil. I'm all -200 for that one. Too much red tape.
16:32:15 <nirik> I note that for example, freenode when they kline someone will not talk about it on line. You have to mail them about it.
16:32:17 <EvilBob> Southern_Gentlem: and as I have said in the past if they want to change something I has to be helping, not mandating
16:32:47 * nirik was not suggesting we ask for a mandate, was suggesting we ask for ideas.
16:33:07 <EvilBob> they have not been there, how can they have ideas?
16:33:20 <dcr226> nirik, mail alias +1, thats me on the subject (I really don't think it will be high load)
16:33:27 <nirik> Because they deal with a diverse community in phone/irc/lists?
16:33:28 <Khaytsus> Often in Paul's responses to such things he goes over his ideas on how communication with users should be ran..
16:33:32 <Southern_Gentlem> nirik,  i think its been a hectic week and lets table this for one month
16:33:56 <plarsen> I fail to see how writing to a mail alias that goes out to the same people who are in #fedora-ops differs from just taking it up in #fedora-ops to begin with?
16:34:05 <EvilBob> dcr226: Dedicated alias?
16:34:05 <nirik> can we all agree that the current setup is not working / wasting a lot of our time / not getting us feedback in a way we can improve?
16:34:08 <dcr226> plarsen, stops the flames
16:34:17 <nirik> plarsen: I was not suggesting it go to all ops.
16:34:19 <dcr226> EvilBob, don't really care - it wont get used
16:34:21 <EvilBob> dcr226: or mixed in with our existing?
16:34:24 <plarsen> dcr226, sorry - no flame intended?
16:34:31 <DiscordianUK> and the mail list spreads it over time zonew
16:34:38 <DiscordianUK> zones
16:34:58 <dcr226> EvilBob, existing one would work fine for me - I think it will get < 3 pings per month
16:34:58 <EvilBob> and slower to come to a resoluton
16:35:07 <plarsen> nirik, +1 in not working
16:35:12 <EvilBob> if a resolution is reached at all
16:35:16 <DiscordianUK> so giving all list members a chance to review/comment
16:35:33 <nirik> Southern_Gentlem: I would really rather not table this for a long time, I think we need to address it. ;) Not perhaps today, but sooner than a month.
16:35:37 <EvilBob> most people get tired of waiting to even chime in
16:35:40 * dcr226 would be happy to vote on 4 or 5 senior ops to decide on any ramifications of his actions
16:35:49 * Khaytsus hobbles on his cane off to lunch
16:37:00 <EvilBob> dcr226: it's not just about punishing or judging ops IMO, it is also about removing dedicated and intent users on being a problem and/or disruption
16:37:32 <nirik> I guess I can try and come up with some proposals and we can discuss them over the next week or so.
16:37:34 <EvilBob> dcr226: we all know that most kick/bans are not a one time deal
16:37:35 <Southern_Gentlem> nirik,  then 2 weeks
16:37:48 <dcr226> EvilBob, my personal view is that ops are voted for a reason, and they use their discretion to kick/ban (withing the guidelines), with the assistance of other ops
16:38:02 <dcr226> EvilBob, and if I got kick/ban happy, I would expect someone to pull me up on it
16:38:12 <nirik> Southern_Gentlem: yeah, will see what I have time for I guess... ;)
16:38:13 <dcr226> s/withing/within
16:38:17 <EvilBob> dcr226: I always do... LOL
16:38:25 <dcr226> EvilBob, LOL, works though eh?
16:39:06 <EvilBob> next?
16:39:30 <Sonar_Gal> +1
16:39:36 <nirik> #topic Kudos
16:39:55 <nirik> I'd like to personally say I think it's been great having plarsen and dcr226 helping out of late.
16:40:04 <DiscordianUK> +1
16:40:07 <nirik> Thanks for your work guys.
16:40:13 <dcr226> welcome :)
16:40:19 <mock> +1 for plarsen and dcr226
16:40:23 <plarsen> thanks nirik - you're welcome. Enjoying helping
16:40:29 <EvilBob> +1 dcr226
16:40:30 <Sonar_Gal> :)
16:40:38 <nirik> anyhow, just wanted to mention that.
16:40:41 <nirik> #topic Open Floor
16:40:50 <nirik> Anyone have anything for open floor?
16:40:50 <EvilBob> Next week is their 1mo
16:40:53 <dcr226> EvilBob, can we take the opportunity to compare "thanks" ?
16:40:57 <dcr226> :-P
16:41:14 <mock> open floor?
16:41:20 <EvilBob> we should either keep them or toss them
16:41:32 <EvilBob> we need a vote on each I think
16:41:37 <DiscordianUK> I'd like to say that I'm gonna have to take a leave of absence for a while whilst I sought stuff out.
16:41:39 <EvilBob> Another Topic - #fedora-$LANG
16:41:40 <nirik> EvilBob: yeah, next week's meeting?
16:41:45 <EvilBob> nirik: +1
16:41:47 <mock> bacon is down on the weekly -social stats, people.  i think that needs more focus.
16:41:54 <Southern_Gentlem> mock,  yes anything that you think should be brought up about the #feodra or #fedora-social channels
16:42:00 <nirik> DiscordianUK: sorry to hear it. ;( Is there anything we can do to help from here?
16:42:02 <Sonar_Gal> mock, Then do something about it
16:42:11 <plarsen> Sorry to hear that DiscordianUK
16:42:16 <nirik> EvilBob: sure, we can do that quickly...
16:42:17 <mock> all i'm saying is that a random "bacon" in -social every once and a while could up those stats easily
16:42:17 <DiscordianUK> I'm working on getting help atm
16:42:20 <EvilBob> DiscordianUK: I look forward to your return
16:42:26 <DiscordianUK> Thank you
16:42:30 <mock> Sonar_Gal: i see it as a team effort
16:42:31 <Sonar_Gal> +1
16:42:36 <nirik> #topic #fedora-$LANG channels
16:43:02 <EvilBob> I have been working on getting more native language channels for supporting users
16:43:28 <EvilBob> I would appreciate any help you can give in suggesting channels to users
16:43:42 <nirik> EvilBob: looks like #fedora-arabic is getting some traffic.
16:43:45 <EvilBob> I know plarsen does not agree with helping users in this way but that's tough
16:44:04 <plarsen> If there is enough native speakers out there to populate and help out in the channels, I'm all +1 for EvilBob's intentions.
16:44:06 <EvilBob> nirik: it is a very good example of a short term success
16:44:22 <plarsen> EvilBob, only if it still provides them support
16:44:32 <nirik> well, I would say: if you think the user is having issues with english, and we have a #fedora-lang channel, I see no reason not to point them there for more help
16:44:39 <plarsen> EvilBob, if it's just a mean to get hard-to-help people out of #fedora, I don't agree with it.
16:44:54 <plarsen> nirik, even if that channel is deserted and doesn't provide any help?
16:45:00 <nirik> plarsen: some hard to help people don't have the language barrier issue. ;)
16:45:11 <dcr226> put a group of native speaking enthusiasts in a room (in this case channel) and their varying degrees of experience will provide support up until the point where it needs to appear in #fedora
16:45:15 <plarsen> hehe - agreed
16:45:24 <nirik> plarsen: sure, its worth a try... they can always come back to #fedora later if that didn't help them.
16:45:49 <plarsen> nirik, So as long as you don't say "you'll ONLY get help there" I'm all for it.
16:45:50 <nirik> of course some will say "I asked in #fedora-lang and didn't get an answer in the 1minute I waited"
16:45:59 <EvilBob> plarsen: if the channel is deserted you could hang out so others muight stay, so it does not look like a ghost town
16:46:00 <dcr226> I'm also happy to hang around in $lang channels, provided someone is there to translate (or we get the bot doing it)
16:46:19 <plarsen> EvilBob, if I can speak/write the language I would.
16:46:28 <EvilBob> plarsen: Not what I suggest
16:46:29 <nirik> helping via translate is not at all easy
16:46:38 <EvilBob> I suggest staying no matter what
16:46:42 <dcr226> nirik, agreed
16:46:45 <plarsen> EvilBob, except for fedora-de I don't see any channels I could help with. And I think they'll rather do without my broken german there :)
16:46:46 <EvilBob> just to get numbers up
16:46:59 <EvilBob> plarsen: I know you are against helping
16:47:10 <plarsen> EvilBob, robbish
16:47:17 <dcr226> why don't we spread the $lang channels amongst ourselves and hang out in them?
16:47:19 <EvilBob> plarsen: so please back out, you have nothing constructive to add
16:47:20 <plarsen> EvilBob, I'm against NO trying to help.
16:47:22 <plarsen> NOT*
16:47:24 <dcr226> I'll happy take 2 or 3
16:47:40 <dcr226> **NOT** arabic
16:47:42 <dcr226> :)
16:47:50 <dcr226> even though it does look kinda cool
16:47:52 <nirik> anyhow, I think we should: point people who appear to be having language issues to #fedora-LANG if one exists for better help, if they can't or it doesn't we can try and help them in #fedora
16:47:59 <dcr226> nirik, +1
16:48:06 <nirik> dcr226: arabic looks cool tho. ;)
16:48:26 <EvilBob> the minute we created -arabic we had people steping up to experience it
16:48:42 <plarsen> +1 - if we can get the channels populated; otherwise it doesn't help here and now.
16:48:49 <EvilBob> the same can happen with other languages
16:48:52 <nirik> EvilBob: yep. Feel free to duplicate that success if we can identify other channels where we can get support setup
16:49:08 <EvilBob> we need to make sure we get the wiki updated to list these channels
16:49:11 <nirik> ok, anything further on this? or have we about said it all?
16:49:15 <nirik> EvilBob: good point.
16:49:42 <dcr226> EvilBob, can I have a list of $lang chans that aren't being populated by a #fedora op?
16:49:42 * mock joins #fedora-klingon to help out there
16:49:56 <dcr226> mock, I already called on that
16:50:01 <nirik> #topic Open Floor again
16:50:02 <EvilBob> people will visit their native language or even 3rd or 4th language channels if they exist and are publicized
16:50:10 <mock> plarsen: you betcha
16:50:24 <nirik> EvilBob: can you update the wiki? or find out what needs adding at least?
16:50:35 <EvilBob> plarsen: again with the here and now
16:50:48 <EvilBob> nirik: I am more than willing to lead this effort
16:50:53 <nirik> EvilBob: great.
16:51:09 <EvilBob> nirik: I just ask for help Identifying those that could benefit
16:51:25 <dcr226> I'd also appreciate -ops in and $lang channel I hang out in
16:51:32 <dcr226> s/and/any
16:51:35 <plarsen> EvilBob, I'll gladly help out if someone who's language I know I can help out with.
16:51:37 <mock> dcr226: the more, the merrier...er, the warrior-ier
16:51:50 <plarsen> As we talked about the other day, I've several times used google translate to get a gist of what people are trying to say to help out.
16:51:55 <EvilBob> plarsen: and please let us try even when you can't help
16:52:06 <plarsen> EvilBob, Am I stopping you?
16:52:12 <nirik> ok, anything further for open floor? Or shall we stick a fork in it?
16:52:14 <EvilBob> plarsen: You are discuraging
16:52:26 <EvilBob> just back off please
16:52:33 <plarsen> EvilBob, I'm expressing my opinion.
16:52:42 <dcr226> mock, you are welcome to join me in #fedora-klingon
16:52:55 <EvilBob> Your opinion has been noted
16:52:56 <Sonar_Guy> plarsen: you know what the say about opinions?
16:53:21 <Sonar_Guy> plarsen: they are like assholes, everybody has one and some of them stink!
16:53:22 <EvilBob> now let others succeed, if it fails you can be a part of that
16:53:42 <plarsen> Sonar_Guy, I guess it's just a matter of determining which ones goes with what category?
16:54:06 <EvilBob> I expect you to cheer if it does fail "Yippie it failed and I did nothing to help"
16:54:13 * nirik doesn't think we are being productive now, will end the meeting in a minute.
16:54:22 <Sonar_Gal> +1
16:54:27 <mock> dcr226: kap'lah
16:54:40 <nirik> <plug>I'd like to point you all at http://scrye.com/wordpress-mu/nirik/2010/06/30/accentuate-the-positive/ </plug>
16:54:50 <plarsen> EvilBob, I don't think you know me well enough to make such a statement. I've done IRC, Fido and a lot of other social networks for 20+ years. I base my opinions on what I have see work and not work. Am I always right, no ...
16:54:52 <EvilBob> Please everyone take note of plarsen's attitude when voting next week on hos status as an opt
16:55:12 <EvilBob> plarsen: So now it's a cock measuring contest
16:55:15 <EvilBob> NO ONE CARES
16:55:17 <plarsen> *sigh* - EvilBob you're the one with the attitude.
16:55:40 <nirik> both of you are failing to be excellent. Please stop?
16:55:41 <EvilBob> Yup the positive attitude about helping people
16:56:12 <dcr226> nirik, anything else?
16:56:13 <nirik> If you don't, I will have to make the meeting end with a group hug. ;)
16:56:15 <plarsen> EvilBob, not agreeing with you doesn't mean a bad attitude.
16:56:18 <nirik> #endmeeting