16:00:03 <nirik> #startmeeting IRC Support SIG (2010-07-22)
16:00:03 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Jul 22 16:00:03 2010 UTC.  The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:00:03 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:00:03 <nirik> #meetingname irc-support-sig
16:00:03 <nirik> #topic init process
16:00:03 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'irc-support-sig'
16:00:43 <fenris02> 
16:00:53 <dcr226> um, nirik - no announcement?
16:01:11 * EvilBob 
16:01:13 <nirik> dcr226: sorry, got hit with work crisis. Will try and do one.
16:01:26 * DiscordianUK is here
16:01:56 <Sonar_Gal> 
16:02:34 * meGenius is here!!
16:02:42 <dcr226> nirik, ooc, do we (ops) have @say permissions?
16:02:51 <nirik> dcr226: yes, I think so.
16:02:55 <nirik> would have to check to make sure tho.
16:03:45 <fenris02> dcr226, anyone with botperms should i think
16:03:48 <dcr226> looks like it
16:04:31 <nirik> ok, I don't have too much today, so lets go ahead...
16:04:37 <nirik> #topic Week in review
16:04:53 <nirik> http://fedora.theglaserfamily.org/ircstats/fedora-weekly.html
16:05:03 <nirik> pretty typical, but on the busy side week I think.
16:06:14 <nirik> anyone have anything they would like to note from the last week? any problems that came up a lot, etc?
16:06:15 <dcr226> notable change on the pulseaudio howto, which has been fixed - omitting pulse-rt and replacing with pulse-access on F13
16:06:41 <DiscordianUK> oh interesting
16:06:45 <EvilBob> Over all I think the average user... ability to help themselves level was better from what I saw
16:06:55 <EvilBob> I was going to say stupidity level
16:07:07 <nirik> dcr226: cool.
16:07:16 <EvilBob> From what I saw anyhow
16:07:34 <EvilBob> Gah, repetitive
16:08:09 <nirik> ok, moving along...
16:08:18 <nirik> #topic Feedback process ideas
16:08:20 <fenris02> dcr226, adding real users to pulse-access is a gaping security hole btw.
16:08:30 <dcr226> yeah, I picked up on that earlier
16:08:59 <nirik> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Kevin/Support_Feedback is what I had from a week or two ago.
16:09:13 <nirik> I still haven't done much concrete with it, but hope to soon.
16:09:28 <nirik> If folks have ideas or general thoughts on it, add them to the wiki page...
16:10:16 <fenris02> nirik, still not fond of negative actions.
16:10:24 <nirik> me either...
16:10:46 <fenris02> how did that karma testing thing go?
16:10:58 <dcr226> first hurdle #fail
16:11:02 <fenris02> ouch
16:11:03 <nirik> the karma plugin seems broken on x86_64.
16:11:38 <fenris02> i didnt even touch it and its still broken
16:11:48 <nirik> ha.
16:11:55 <dcr226> Heh
16:12:10 <nirik> anyhow, I will try and add some concrete proposals based on the wiki page ideas next week....
16:12:27 <nirik> #topic Open Floor
16:12:34 <nirik> Anyone have any items for open floor?
16:12:46 <dcr226> I don't think its appropriate to have a certain logger in -ops
16:13:00 * dcr226 doesn't know if its appropriate to name names
16:13:25 <meGenius> how can watch the logs, dcr226??
16:13:29 <EvilBob> FACT: any user in the channel can and probably is logging
16:13:45 <dcr226> EvilBob, not the point, this logger belongs to a non-op
16:13:54 <DiscordianUK> A seperate logger for a non op
16:13:59 <dcr226> yup
16:14:09 <DiscordianUK> Is a bit over the top
16:14:09 <EvilBob> if logging is an issue then do we go back to no non-ops in the channel
16:14:12 <meGenius> i think you can name then.
16:14:17 * nirik doesn't care much...
16:14:25 <DiscordianUK> Best not to name em here
16:14:29 <nirik> is the logging ok if they are around?
16:14:33 <EvilBob> So he changes the nick and logs with a bouncer
16:14:39 <nirik> if so, they could just log with their client.
16:14:43 <dcr226> ok, raised my concern - thats it really
16:14:44 <EvilBob> BFD
16:15:09 <EvilBob> If it is a real concern then eliminate the non-ops hanging in the channel
16:15:21 <EvilBob> then the issue is closed
16:15:30 <meGenius> EvilBob+1
16:15:30 <dcr226> well, personally i'm up for that as well, or at least vote them / make it temporary
16:15:37 <EvilBob> Motion to remove all non-ops from the channel
16:15:40 <DiscordianUK> +1
16:15:42 <dcr226> +1
16:15:44 <nirik> -1
16:15:59 <dcr226> <caveat> unless by temporary invite
16:16:03 <nirik> I think our current policy is fine... allow folks who we have invited.
16:16:09 <EvilBob> it is not unanimous, I don't think we can
16:16:18 <fenris02> sorry, but that gets real troublesome.  ops in any #fedora-* channel are rather difficult to enumerate
16:16:30 <DiscordianUK> Nope it's indecisive
16:16:53 <dcr226> ok then - clarify the invite rule. at what point does the invite expire?
16:16:54 <EvilBob> NOTE: I was playing Devil's Advocate making the motion
16:17:10 <EvilBob> I am fine with invited parties being in the channel
16:17:27 <nirik> dcr226: good question... when revoked?
16:17:30 <mock> party in the channel!
16:17:33 <mock> jk
16:17:44 <nirik> mock: did you bring the bacon? ;)
16:17:46 <fenris02> in any case, the user in question was invited
16:17:49 <Sonar_Gal> i have no issue with non-ops in the channel if they are invited
16:17:52 <mock> nirik: always
16:17:56 <DiscordianUK> The other question is what are they doing with the logs?
16:17:57 <fenris02> meh.  forget teh bacon, where's the scotch?
16:18:08 <dcr226> I have no issue, based on invite - but my point is, when does the invite expire?
16:18:26 <dcr226> so, $helperX is invited to warn about a potential troll
16:18:53 <nirik> when the person who invited them says 'hey, do you still need to be around here?' ?
16:18:56 <dcr226> if he isn't _managing_ the channel, I see no reason to continue, unless he's invited for a longer period pending nomination
16:18:58 <EvilBob> make a motion at a meeting if it a standing invite needs to be revoked
16:19:13 <DiscordianUK> We have often invited people to leave when they've come into raise single issues
16:19:29 <EvilBob> nirik: I think we need to find a polite way to evict short term invites
16:19:44 <dcr226> that works
16:19:50 <meGenius> EvilBob: proxy??
16:19:59 <DiscordianUK> The logger was a prospective op
16:20:13 <nirik> EvilBob: I always found "Hey, we don't typically allow people to idle here unless invited..." to work
16:20:29 <mock> offer them bacon and the door
16:20:53 <EvilBob> nirik: "we don't typically allow people to idle here once a problem is resolved..."
16:21:35 <EvilBob> the "invited" bit can be rough sounding when they were invited
16:21:35 <nirik> well, I have no problem kicking the logger out and asking the person if they need to have it there...
16:21:39 <nirik> EvilBob: sure.
16:22:10 <dcr226> nirik, that works for me (logger), if they return - and ask to let it back in.....
16:22:12 <nirik> and we could probibly just continue discussion on that in the ops channel...
16:22:13 <EvilBob> nirik: RE: the logger, I feel we can leave that action if any up to you
16:22:40 <DiscordianUK> That ones a hot potato anyway
16:22:52 <dcr226> not for the direct :)
16:23:16 <EvilBob> Any other issues before we waste all our time on this that we can discuss later?
16:23:49 <nirik> EvilBob: word
16:24:04 <EvilBob> dcr226: Thanks for bringing it up BTW, I think the clearer we can make the channel policy the better
16:24:11 <dcr226> no worries
16:24:44 <nirik> anyone have any other topics?
16:24:56 <EvilBob> Just a comment
16:25:24 <EvilBob> Try not to target users automatically just because of bad behavior
16:25:25 <nirik> fire away
16:25:55 <EvilBob> let them show their colors before firing up your laser targeting system
16:26:12 <EvilBob> give them a chance to change or they never will
16:26:19 <EvilBob> <EOF>
16:26:29 <fenris02> well said :)
16:26:31 <nirik> sure.
16:26:49 * nirik also points again to http://freenode.net/catalysts.shtml for everyone to take a quick read. ;)
16:27:12 <nirik> ok, if we have nothing else will close out the meeting here in a minute.
16:27:56 <nirik> thanks for coming everyone!
16:28:02 <nirik> #endmeeting