23:00:50 <jjmcd> #startmeeting Docs Project Meeting 00 agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings 23:00:50 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Aug 4 23:00:50 2010 UTC. The chair is jjmcd. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 23:00:50 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 23:01:10 <jjmcd> #topic Roll call 23:01:15 * rudi is here 23:01:16 * jjmcd 23:01:18 * nathant 23:01:19 * crantila is here 23:01:25 * zoglesby is here 23:02:17 <jjmcd> #topic Follow up on last week's action items 23:02:28 <jjmcd> Hmmm, wonder where quaid it 23:02:36 <jjmcd> OK, still working on d-p-r 23:02:42 <quaid> moo? 23:02:44 <jjmcd> Did send out emails 23:02:51 <jjmcd> PK - cool 23:03:00 <jjmcd> quaid to discuss on the list about Beacon and web-based XML editors for Docs use. 23:03:08 <jjmcd> did that happen? 23:03:13 <quaid> nope 23:03:30 <jjmcd> OK, and we don't have Sparks so we can't check on his 23:03:40 <jjmcd> Oh, but I need to re-add mine 23:03:55 <jjmcd> #action jjmcd to have doc-publican-rpm packaged and submitted for review by 21 July 23:04:21 <jjmcd> Does anyone object to delaying the CMS discussion until we get Sparks back (2-3 weeks) ? 23:04:33 <rudi> NP 23:04:35 <nathant> no objections here 23:05:07 <jjmcd> Ok, good. Moving on 23:05:16 <jjmcd> #topic Publican 23:05:22 <jjmcd> rudi, anything to report? 23:06:01 <rudi> . 23:06:40 <rudi> Yes -- still getting good traction on the deps 23:06:41 <rudi> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Automating_publishing 23:06:56 <rudi> Two more into testing today 23:07:15 <rudi> So it's just "steady as she goes" for now. EOM 23:07:41 <nathant> cool stuff 23:07:58 <jjmcd> OK, I have a question only slightly related. Do I need to keep any older versions of Publican for F11, F12, F13 Release Notes? 23:08:49 <rudi> jjmcd -- no 23:09:07 <nathant> hurrah for backwards compatibility! 23:09:13 <jjmcd> Good deal, that means I can upgrade this box and another 23:09:30 <jjmcd> nathant, we went through a period there where we had some version weirdness 23:09:53 <jjmcd> Not a big deal but I wanted to check before I upgraded some systems 23:09:54 <nathant> I remember - I had two versions of publican going at once for a while 23:10:18 <jjmcd> Yeah, I had to use a differen box depending on what release notes I was working on 23:10:22 <jjmcd> OK 23:10:22 <rudi> Yeah; you should be able to build any publican doc with the current version 23:10:22 <nathant> twas a little confusing! 23:10:28 <jjmcd> anything else on publican? 23:10:35 <rudi> Not from me 23:10:51 <jjmcd> #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Automating_publishing 23:11:01 <jjmcd> #topic Release Notes 23:11:09 <jjmcd> OK, by way of report 23:11:23 <jjmcd> We have had some good response from new and previous beat writers 23:11:44 <jjmcd> I have asked for beat writers on Facebook, Multiply 23:11:59 <jjmcd> Plan to do it on Planet and also on dev list in the coming week 23:12:13 <jjmcd> Meanwhile, some beat writers have already gotten to work 23:12:18 <crantila> jjmcd: how/where on Facebook? Is there an official Fedora group? 23:12:25 <jjmcd> A couple of the beats already look good 23:12:36 <jjmcd> crantila, there is, but I was just blabbing to my contacts 23:12:49 <jjmcd> I don't have huge numbers, but most are geeks ;-) 23:13:03 <jjmcd> Of course, about half are already contributors! 23:13:21 * crantila wonders whether marketing has thought of using Facebook 23:13:26 <jjmcd> But you never can tell 23:13:47 <jjmcd> There is a Fedora group, or related. I only noticed it lately and haven't explored it 23:14:00 <jjmcd> There is a Linux group on Multiply which is where I posted there 23:14:16 <nathant> jjmcd: what is Multiply? 23:14:22 <jjmcd> #info Alpha release notes are next week 23:14:33 <jjmcd> nathant, another social networking site 23:14:43 <nathant> jjmcd: ah ok 23:14:58 <jjmcd> A little different than Facebook in that it tends more toward blogs and discussion around them 23:15:34 <jjmcd> Ok, so Tuesday we officially begin Alpha notes 23:15:36 <nathant> Sounds more like my kind of thing - I don't really do much Facebook 23:15:50 <jjmcd> #info Alpha release notes due Friday 23:16:06 <jjmcd> nathant, I like it better, but it is quite a bit smaller community 23:16:19 <jjmcd> Also, we have the Alpha Announcement coming up 23:16:44 <jjmcd> Starts Friday the thirteenth, ends Monday 23:17:04 <jjmcd> Does anyone want to take point on the announcement? It is done in concert with Marketing 23:17:28 <jjmcd> which usually means we remind them, bring some info on features, but they mostly write it 23:17:57 <jjmcd> too bad rbergeron doesn't seem to be here 23:18:09 <jjmcd> No takers? 23:18:26 <nathant> could you explain a little more what's required? 23:18:41 <nathant> we just take the points on the F14 feature page... 23:18:46 <jjmcd> Basically, it is a single wiki page. 23:18:52 <jjmcd> It isn't even that detailed 23:18:54 <nathant> ...and elaborate? 23:19:01 <jjmcd> Sort of the highlights 23:19:22 <jjmcd> give me a sec 23:19:49 <jjmcd> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_12_Alpha_Announcement 23:20:14 <jjmcd> hmmm, the 13 announcement doesn't follow the same name 23:20:41 <jjmcd> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F13_Alpha_release_announcement 23:20:57 <jjmcd> So it is really quite short 23:21:07 <quaid> #info Fedora Marketing is fairly social media aware, bring questions e.g. "Is there a formal Fedora group for FooBarBook.com" to #fedora-mktg or marketing@ 23:21:30 <jjmcd> Good point 23:22:03 <jjmcd> There is some sort of Fedora twitter "person", too 23:22:23 <quaid> it's a small group who post to it iirc 23:23:16 <jjmcd> I have a MI_ARPSC twitter account that is actually a bash script - reminds ppl of significant events including me 23:23:21 <quaid> @reality and @gbraad (which match IRC nicks) are working on social media stuff 23:23:37 <jjmcd> cool 23:23:43 <quaid> jjmcd: yep, that's why StatusNet is so much more than microblogging stuff 23:23:57 <jjmcd> So, any takers for the alpha announcement? 23:24:25 <nathant> I can take it 23:24:28 <jjmcd> I think F14 isn't nearly as feature-laden as 13 23:24:33 <jjmcd> Cool, appreciate it 23:24:37 <nathant> if someone from Marketing can help! 23:24:47 <jjmcd> #info nathant to take point on F14 Alpha announcement 23:24:47 <nathant> jjmcd: I was just noticing this 23:24:52 <jjmcd> Oh, they will 23:25:07 <nathant> particularly for ordinary desktop users 23:25:20 <jjmcd> #action jjmcd to ping marketing and get nathant a partner for announcement 23:25:49 <crantila> it looks like the beat that would cover systemd is still open... is that right? 23:26:01 <crantila> "System Daemons" 23:26:02 <jjmcd> I think so 23:26:31 * stickster ducks into meeting for a moment 23:26:35 <stickster> I talked to jsmith-away about this today 23:26:46 <jjmcd> Daemons? 23:26:49 <jjmcd> or announcement 23:26:53 <stickster> announcement 23:26:56 <crantila> I don't want a third beat, but somebody has to talk about systemd 23:27:18 <crantila> so keep me in mind as a last resort? :P 23:27:27 <stickster> re: announcement... For several releases we've had a really desktop-heavy concentration wiht lots of tasty stuff for all users 23:28:48 <jjmcd> and the server/headless guys are getting restless 23:29:01 <stickster> This time around, with GNOME 3 being the heavy concentration of our Desktop SIG, and no huge new features planned for the 2.x tree because of it, it would make sense for us to think about how the "under the hood stuff" in this release fits into a longer term look at other target audiences 23:29:11 <stickster> e.g. EC2 23:29:17 <jjmcd> good point 23:29:20 <stickster> Spice, assuming it's still in, which I think it is 23:29:50 <nathant> so we pitch F14 more towards developers and sysadmins 23:29:53 * stickster is getting a little in to Marketing team territory here. But this kind of general framework could help provide context in the announcement. 23:29:59 <stickster> s/in to/into/ 23:30:48 <stickster> I asked jsmith-away to think about this backdrop and how the Marketing team could build the talking points and other release stuff around it 23:31:07 <stickster> The important thing to remember is everything in F13 doesn't disappear just because we're another release further down the road 23:31:40 <quaid> in fact, it will be bug fixed stuff, so a bit better for sure 23:31:49 <quaid> "fine tuned" 23:31:52 <stickster> i.e. We can continue to show off the better appearance, stability and utility on the Desktop, maybe even in specific areas like NetworkManager etc. that continue to get small, important capability bumps 23:32:04 <stickster> quaid: Exactly 23:32:18 <stickster> jjmcd: nathant Does that help give some context to an announcement? 23:32:38 <nathant> stickster: I like your thinking 23:32:41 <jjmcd> stickster, that is a big help IMO 23:32:58 <jjmcd> Excellent 23:33:09 <stickster> Wow, glad I could do something useful at this meeting, then! 23:33:13 <stickster> :-) 23:33:44 <jjmcd> Guys, b00blik_ru_br is Yuri, taking on the web server beat. Hi Yuri! 23:33:58 <nathant> Hi Yuri! 23:33:59 <b00blik_ru_br> Hello :) 23:34:09 <b00blik_ru_br> Hello everybody :) 23:34:24 <stickster> <eof/> (in case that wasn't clear) :-) 23:34:47 <nathant> thanks for your suggestions stickster! 23:34:49 <jjmcd> So, nathant ping me if you need help - I'm generally around altho sometime it takes a bit for me to notice where the ping came from 23:35:17 <nathant> ok cool should I wait for marketing to get in touch? 23:35:25 <jjmcd> Well 23:35:33 <jjmcd> no reason you couldn't start thinking about it 23:35:46 <jjmcd> I'll try to be prompt on getting a marketing person. 23:36:09 <nathant> is there a wiki page already? 23:36:10 <stickster> jjmcd: rrix was doing a great job leading our talking points discussion yesterday 23:36:20 <jjmcd> Oh, good to know 23:36:24 <stickster> He might be able to help, although I don't know his schedule 23:36:39 <jjmcd> nathant - not yet, but you can easily make one 23:36:53 <nathant> ok will do that 23:36:56 <jjmcd> I think rbergeron is on the marketing team, and she is around the channel a lot lately 23:37:20 <jjmcd> OK, anything else on release notes / alpha announcement ? 23:37:57 <jjmcd> #topic Guide Status 23:38:09 <jjmcd> Anyone have anything on any of the guides? 23:38:24 <crantila> . 23:38:40 <crantila> the Musicians' Guide is now DocBook-ified 23:38:50 <crantila> it's available on the Docs website as "Draft Documentation" 23:39:05 <crantila> I'm posting updated versions daily until next Monday, and probably after that, too 23:39:29 <crantila> please help by proof-reading; most chapters still require major stylistic re-writes 23:39:35 <crantila> thank you 23:39:46 <jjmcd> very cool. I wonder whether our community minstrel candidate even knew it was in progress? ;-) 23:40:04 <crantila> who is that? 23:40:31 <jjmcd> When he announced he was stepping down as FPL, stickster indicated he was going to try for the job 23:41:26 <rudi> Power Management Guide is now in Draft form on d.fp.o 23:41:35 <jjmcd> Although, I think he probably should have created the position while he was FPL 23:41:37 <jjmcd> WOW 23:41:42 <jjmcd> We keep getting more and more 23:41:50 <rudi> And there's a hosting request open for the Storage Administration Guide 23:42:11 <jjmcd> #info Musician's Guide is on docs.fp.o draft - please proofread 23:42:28 <rudi> https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/2307 23:42:34 <jjmcd> #info Power Management Guide in draft form on docs.fp.o 23:43:16 <jjmcd> Anything else on guides? 23:43:21 <nathant> Can I just say - drafts on d.fp.o is a lot easier than checking out a git repo 23:43:38 <jjmcd> nathant, absolutely 23:43:46 <rudi> nathant -- you still need to check out a git repo 23:44:04 <jjmcd> Between rudi and nb the capabilities have been exploding 23:44:08 <rudi> Oh -- you mean to read them? 23:44:17 <nathant> rudi: yes! 23:44:23 <rudi> OK yeah ;) 23:44:28 <jjmcd> yeah, better than clone, build just to read it 23:44:35 <rudi> absolutely. 23:44:44 <nathant> rudi: but you're right, fixing bugs means checking out the repo 23:44:46 <rudi> The best is yet to come ;) 23:45:20 <jjmcd> We need to get nb and rudi in a room together so they can conspire, plot and scheme 23:45:21 <rudi> I meant that publishing drafts still means checking out the repo 23:45:55 <rudi> I'll start allocating some of my Fedora budget 23:46:14 <rudi> Which means I'll get there just as soon as airfares and accommodation are free as in beer :) 23:46:15 <jjmcd> For you newer folks, and there are a lot here, rudi makes magic happen in Publican, and nb makes magic happen in the infrastructure 23:46:21 <jjmcd> ;-) 23:46:38 <jjmcd> ANything else on guides? 23:47:07 <jjmcd> #topic Outstanding BZ Tickets 23:47:19 <jjmcd> #link http://tinyurl.com/lbrq84 23:47:35 <jjmcd> I'll breeze through this so we have a few minutes for general discussion 23:47:45 <jjmcd> Anyone need any help with any tickets? 23:48:32 <jjmcd> #topic Open floor discussion 23:48:49 <jjmcd> We have about 10 minutes. Does anyone have anything else for the good of the order? 23:48:50 <nathant> going back to crantila's point re. systemd 23:49:11 <nathant> My understanding of it is sketchy at best 23:49:22 <crantila> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/systemd 23:49:28 <nathant> but is it actually a daemon itself? 23:49:38 <crantila> it replaced init 23:49:41 <crantila> replaces* 23:49:55 <nathant> Just trying to think which beat it should go under 23:50:05 <crantila> it runs in the background, so I figured it's a daemon. Not sure about the category either 23:50:15 <jjmcd> Oh, quite possibly boot 23:50:22 <crantila> that makes more sense 23:51:01 <jjmcd> Rahul has tended to be helpful with release notes, so we might sucker him into taking the beat 23:51:32 <nathant> Ok perhaps he would have an opinion on where it should go 23:51:40 <rudi> Yeah, definitely boot 23:51:42 <jjmcd> Yes 23:52:04 <jjmcd> I see the release notes part of the feature page needs some expansion 23:52:37 <jjmcd> That might merit it's own beat 23:53:05 <jjmcd> No reason beats can't come and go depending on the needs of the release 23:53:26 <crantila> especially considering the focus of the RNs this release 23:53:32 <jjmcd> Yes 23:54:01 <b00blik_ru_br> Excuse me, may I ask a question? 23:54:06 <jjmcd> That might even be a highlight of the announcement ... building under the cover stuff to allow better later 23:54:10 <jjmcd> of course b00blik_ru_br 23:54:26 <b00blik_ru_br> I've been the first time, so I apologize if I ask a wrong question. How to Beat Writers receive pre-release for Fedora Beat writing? As all users, or they get some links? I haven't ever use pre-versions of Fedora, so I don't know about it. 23:55:05 <jjmcd> b00blik_ru_br, a lot of it can be done without actually installing the software. But all of the packages are available on rawhide 23:55:26 <jjmcd> and generally, folks install the alpha, frequeltly on a USB stick or virtual machine 23:55:54 <jjmcd> In the past, I have often worked from a USB stick because it is so easy to roll back 23:56:04 <nathant> Rawhide is where all the fun stuff happens 23:56:06 <jjmcd> Just save off a copy of the persistent overlay file 23:56:11 <jjmcd> nathant, exactly 23:56:24 <jjmcd> Just remember; "Rawhide eats babies" 23:56:47 <rudi> b00blik_ru_br: we also rely on what developers write on the Feature pages 23:56:55 <jjmcd> I have tended not to install off rawhide on a real system, but stickster frequently does 23:57:48 <b00blik_ru_br> So I can download an entire system image or the desired package from the alpha version of the distribution, is not it? 23:57:53 <jjmcd> b00blik_ru_br, then as we get closer to release, there will be nightly composes where you can grab the very latest ISO 23:57:58 <jjmcd> that is correct 23:58:27 <b00blik_ru_br> thanks for information 23:58:37 <jjmcd> But it is a LOT more comfortable if you can do it to a stick or VM 23:58:55 <jjmcd> That way you can be as reckless as you want with little risk 23:59:10 <nathant> jjmcd: Is there a doc somewhere that explains the Fedora development process? 23:59:10 <jjmcd> Anything else? 23:59:35 <jjmcd> nathant, not that I know of. There are a lot of ins and outs and they are changing a lot in the past few weeks 23:59:58 <jjmcd> Jesse Keating is kind of the expert, and he is real helpful 00:00:08 <nathant> jjmcd: I meant the whole Rawhide-Alpha-Beta-G.A. thing 00:00:20 <jjmcd> but as you get close to release he obviously gets real busy 00:00:41 <jjmcd> I suspect there is something, and whatever it is you can be confident it will be out of date 00:01:06 <jjmcd> Developers put stuff into rawhide pretty easily 00:01:26 <jjmcd> If you are a proven packager, you can pretty much stuff anything you want there 00:01:53 <jjmcd> You can tag it for distribution, but then release engineering will vet it if it is new, and it may or may not make it 00:02:13 <jjmcd> The Alpha, Beta and RC releases will mostly be bug fixes / making things compatible 00:02:36 <jjmcd> There is a documented set of rules about when it is OK to release an alpha, beta or final 00:02:59 <jjmcd> But every release RelEng finds some new issue they never thought of 00:03:10 <jjmcd> So those rules get updated all the time 00:03:27 <jjmcd> And sometimes, like on the devel list, there is animated discussion about them 00:03:37 <crantila> test@ is also a fun place to be 00:03:50 <jjmcd> Did you ever see Max's Governance talk? 00:04:14 <nathant> So can the alpha, beta and RC releases be thought of as snapshots of rawhide? 00:04:29 <rudi> nathant -- not really 00:04:30 <crantila> I haven't. I'm sure others would appreciate a link, too 00:04:31 <cjb> nathant: nah, it's forked 00:04:31 <jjmcd> nathant, kind of. More like snapshots of a subset of rawhide 00:04:31 <nathant> (in very simple terms) 00:04:37 <crantila> maybe we should move back to #fedora-docs? 00:04:46 <jjmcd> Yeah, we are past time 00:04:51 <jjmcd> Anything else for the meeting? 00:05:05 <jjmcd> OK, thanks everyone. Good discussions tonight 00:05:13 <jjmcd> #endmeeting