23:00:50 <jjmcd> #startmeeting Docs Project Meeting 00 agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings
23:00:50 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Aug  4 23:00:50 2010 UTC.  The chair is jjmcd. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
23:00:50 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
23:01:10 <jjmcd> #topic Roll call
23:01:15 * rudi is here
23:01:16 * jjmcd 
23:01:18 * nathant 
23:01:19 * crantila is here
23:01:25 * zoglesby is here
23:02:17 <jjmcd> #topic Follow up on last week's action items
23:02:28 <jjmcd> Hmmm, wonder where quaid it
23:02:36 <jjmcd> OK, still working on d-p-r
23:02:42 <quaid> moo?
23:02:44 <jjmcd> Did send out emails
23:02:51 <jjmcd> PK - cool
23:03:00 <jjmcd> quaid to discuss on the list about Beacon and web-based XML editors for Docs use.
23:03:08 <jjmcd> did that happen?
23:03:13 <quaid> nope
23:03:30 <jjmcd> OK, and we don't have Sparks so we can't check on his
23:03:40 <jjmcd> Oh, but I need to re-add mine
23:03:55 <jjmcd> #action jjmcd to have doc-publican-rpm packaged and submitted for review by 21 July
23:04:21 <jjmcd> Does anyone object to delaying the CMS discussion until we get Sparks back (2-3 weeks) ?
23:04:33 <rudi> NP
23:04:35 <nathant> no objections here
23:05:07 <jjmcd> Ok, good.  Moving on
23:05:16 <jjmcd> #topic Publican
23:05:22 <jjmcd> rudi, anything to report?
23:06:01 <rudi> .
23:06:40 <rudi> Yes -- still getting good traction on the deps
23:06:41 <rudi> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Automating_publishing
23:06:56 <rudi> Two more into testing today
23:07:15 <rudi> So it's just "steady as she goes" for now. EOM
23:07:41 <nathant> cool stuff
23:07:58 <jjmcd> OK, I have a question only slightly related.  Do I need to keep any older versions of Publican for F11, F12, F13 Release Notes?
23:08:49 <rudi> jjmcd -- no
23:09:07 <nathant> hurrah for backwards compatibility!
23:09:13 <jjmcd> Good deal, that means I can upgrade this box and another
23:09:30 <jjmcd> nathant, we went through a period there where we had some version weirdness
23:09:53 <jjmcd> Not a big deal but I wanted to check before I upgraded some systems
23:09:54 <nathant> I remember - I had two versions of publican going at once for a while
23:10:18 <jjmcd> Yeah, I had to use a differen box depending on what release notes I was working on
23:10:22 <jjmcd> OK
23:10:22 <rudi> Yeah; you should be able to build any publican doc with the current version
23:10:22 <nathant> twas a little confusing!
23:10:28 <jjmcd> anything else on publican?
23:10:35 <rudi> Not from me
23:10:51 <jjmcd> #link  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Automating_publishing
23:11:01 <jjmcd> #topic Release Notes
23:11:09 <jjmcd> OK, by way of report
23:11:23 <jjmcd> We have had some good response from new and previous beat writers
23:11:44 <jjmcd> I have asked for beat writers on Facebook, Multiply
23:11:59 <jjmcd> Plan to do it on Planet and also on dev list in the coming week
23:12:13 <jjmcd> Meanwhile, some beat writers have already gotten to work
23:12:18 <crantila> jjmcd: how/where on Facebook? Is there an official Fedora group?
23:12:25 <jjmcd> A couple of the beats already look good
23:12:36 <jjmcd> crantila, there is, but I was just blabbing to my contacts
23:12:49 <jjmcd> I don't have huge numbers, but most are geeks ;-)
23:13:03 <jjmcd> Of course, about half are already contributors!
23:13:21 * crantila wonders whether marketing has thought of using Facebook
23:13:26 <jjmcd> But you never can tell
23:13:47 <jjmcd> There is a Fedora group, or related.  I only noticed it lately and haven't explored it
23:14:00 <jjmcd> There is a Linux group on Multiply which is where I posted there
23:14:16 <nathant> jjmcd: what is Multiply?
23:14:22 <jjmcd> #info Alpha release notes are next week
23:14:33 <jjmcd> nathant, another social networking site
23:14:43 <nathant> jjmcd: ah ok
23:14:58 <jjmcd> A little different than Facebook in that it tends more toward blogs and discussion around them
23:15:34 <jjmcd> Ok, so Tuesday we officially begin Alpha notes
23:15:36 <nathant> Sounds more like my kind of thing - I don't really do much Facebook
23:15:50 <jjmcd> #info Alpha release notes due Friday
23:16:06 <jjmcd> nathant, I like it better, but it is quite a bit smaller community
23:16:19 <jjmcd> Also, we have the Alpha Announcement coming up
23:16:44 <jjmcd> Starts Friday the thirteenth, ends Monday
23:17:04 <jjmcd> Does anyone want to take point on the announcement?  It is done in concert with Marketing
23:17:28 <jjmcd> which usually means we remind them, bring some info on features, but they mostly write it
23:17:57 <jjmcd> too bad rbergeron doesn't seem to be here
23:18:09 <jjmcd> No takers?
23:18:26 <nathant> could you explain a little more what's required?
23:18:41 <nathant> we just take the points on the F14 feature page...
23:18:46 <jjmcd> Basically, it is a single wiki page.
23:18:52 <jjmcd> It isn't even that detailed
23:18:54 <nathant> ...and elaborate?
23:19:01 <jjmcd> Sort of the highlights
23:19:22 <jjmcd> give me a sec
23:19:49 <jjmcd> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_12_Alpha_Announcement
23:20:14 <jjmcd> hmmm, the 13 announcement doesn't follow the same name
23:20:41 <jjmcd> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F13_Alpha_release_announcement
23:20:57 <jjmcd> So it is really quite short
23:21:07 <quaid> #info Fedora Marketing is fairly social media aware, bring questions e.g. "Is there a formal Fedora group for FooBarBook.com" to #fedora-mktg or marketing@
23:21:30 <jjmcd> Good point
23:22:03 <jjmcd> There is some sort of Fedora twitter "person", too
23:22:23 <quaid> it's a small group who post to it iirc
23:23:16 <jjmcd> I have a MI_ARPSC twitter account that is actually a bash script - reminds ppl of significant events including me
23:23:21 <quaid> @reality and @gbraad (which match IRC nicks) are working on social media stuff
23:23:37 <jjmcd> cool
23:23:43 <quaid> jjmcd: yep, that's why StatusNet is so much more than microblogging stuff
23:23:57 <jjmcd> So, any takers for the alpha announcement?
23:24:25 <nathant> I can take it
23:24:28 <jjmcd> I think F14 isn't nearly as feature-laden as 13
23:24:33 <jjmcd> Cool, appreciate it
23:24:37 <nathant> if someone from Marketing can help!
23:24:47 <jjmcd> #info nathant to take point on F14 Alpha announcement
23:24:47 <nathant> jjmcd: I was just noticing this
23:24:52 <jjmcd> Oh, they will
23:25:07 <nathant> particularly for ordinary desktop users
23:25:20 <jjmcd> #action jjmcd to ping marketing and get nathant a partner for announcement
23:25:49 <crantila> it looks like the beat that would cover systemd is still open... is that right?
23:26:01 <crantila> "System Daemons"
23:26:02 <jjmcd> I think so
23:26:31 * stickster ducks into meeting for a moment
23:26:35 <stickster> I talked to jsmith-away about this today
23:26:46 <jjmcd> Daemons?
23:26:49 <jjmcd> or announcement
23:26:53 <stickster> announcement
23:26:56 <crantila> I don't want a third beat, but somebody has to talk about systemd
23:27:18 <crantila> so keep me in mind as a last resort? :P
23:27:27 <stickster> re: announcement... For several releases we've had a really desktop-heavy concentration wiht lots of tasty stuff for all users
23:28:48 <jjmcd> and the server/headless guys are getting restless
23:29:01 <stickster> This time around, with GNOME 3 being the heavy concentration of our Desktop SIG, and no huge new features planned for the 2.x tree because of it, it would make sense for us to think about how the "under the hood stuff" in this release fits into a longer term look at other target audiences
23:29:11 <stickster> e.g. EC2
23:29:17 <jjmcd> good point
23:29:20 <stickster> Spice, assuming it's still in, which I think it is
23:29:50 <nathant> so we pitch F14 more towards developers and sysadmins
23:29:53 * stickster is getting a little in to Marketing team territory here. But this kind of general framework could help provide context in the announcement.
23:29:59 <stickster> s/in to/into/
23:30:48 <stickster> I asked jsmith-away to think about this backdrop and how the Marketing team could build the talking points and other release stuff around it
23:31:07 <stickster> The important thing to remember is everything in F13 doesn't disappear just because we're another release further down the road
23:31:40 <quaid> in fact, it will be bug fixed stuff, so a bit better for sure
23:31:49 <quaid> "fine tuned"
23:31:52 <stickster> i.e. We can continue to show off the better appearance, stability and utility on the Desktop, maybe even in specific areas like NetworkManager etc. that continue to get small, important capability bumps
23:32:04 <stickster> quaid: Exactly
23:32:18 <stickster> jjmcd: nathant Does that help give some context to an announcement?
23:32:38 <nathant> stickster: I like your thinking
23:32:41 <jjmcd> stickster, that is a big help IMO
23:32:58 <jjmcd> Excellent
23:33:09 <stickster> Wow, glad I could do something useful at this meeting, then!
23:33:13 <stickster> :-)
23:33:44 <jjmcd> Guys, b00blik_ru_br is Yuri, taking on the web server beat.  Hi Yuri!
23:33:58 <nathant> Hi Yuri!
23:33:59 <b00blik_ru_br> Hello :)
23:34:09 <b00blik_ru_br> Hello everybody :)
23:34:24 <stickster> <eof/> (in case that wasn't clear) :-)
23:34:47 <nathant> thanks for your suggestions stickster!
23:34:49 <jjmcd> So, nathant ping me if you need help - I'm generally around altho sometime it takes a bit for me to notice where the ping came from
23:35:17 <nathant> ok cool should I wait for marketing to get in touch?
23:35:25 <jjmcd> Well
23:35:33 <jjmcd> no reason you couldn't start thinking about it
23:35:46 <jjmcd> I'll try to be prompt on getting a marketing person.
23:36:09 <nathant> is there a wiki page already?
23:36:10 <stickster> jjmcd: rrix was doing a great job leading our talking points discussion yesterday
23:36:20 <jjmcd> Oh, good to know
23:36:24 <stickster> He might be able to help, although I don't know his schedule
23:36:39 <jjmcd> nathant - not yet, but you can easily make one
23:36:53 <nathant> ok will do that
23:36:56 <jjmcd> I think rbergeron is on the marketing team, and she is around the channel a lot lately
23:37:20 <jjmcd> OK, anything else on release notes / alpha announcement  ?
23:37:57 <jjmcd> #topic Guide Status
23:38:09 <jjmcd> Anyone have anything on any of the guides?
23:38:24 <crantila> .
23:38:40 <crantila> the Musicians' Guide is now DocBook-ified
23:38:50 <crantila> it's available on the Docs website as "Draft Documentation"
23:39:05 <crantila> I'm posting updated versions daily until next Monday, and probably after that, too
23:39:29 <crantila> please help by proof-reading; most chapters still require major stylistic re-writes
23:39:35 <crantila> thank you
23:39:46 <jjmcd> very cool.  I wonder whether our community minstrel candidate even knew it was in progress? ;-)
23:40:04 <crantila> who is that?
23:40:31 <jjmcd> When he announced he was stepping down as FPL, stickster indicated he was going to try for the job
23:41:26 <rudi> Power Management Guide is now in Draft form on d.fp.o
23:41:35 <jjmcd> Although, I think he probably should have created the position while he was FPL
23:41:37 <jjmcd> WOW
23:41:42 <jjmcd> We keep getting more and more
23:41:50 <rudi> And there's a hosting request open for the Storage Administration Guide
23:42:11 <jjmcd> #info Musician's Guide is on docs.fp.o draft - please proofread
23:42:28 <rudi> https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/2307
23:42:34 <jjmcd> #info Power Management Guide in draft form on docs.fp.o
23:43:16 <jjmcd> Anything else on guides?
23:43:21 <nathant> Can I just say - drafts on d.fp.o is a lot easier than checking out a git repo
23:43:38 <jjmcd> nathant, absolutely
23:43:46 <rudi> nathant -- you still need to check out a git repo
23:44:04 <jjmcd> Between rudi and nb the capabilities have been exploding
23:44:08 <rudi> Oh -- you mean to read them?
23:44:17 <nathant> rudi: yes!
23:44:23 <rudi> OK yeah ;)
23:44:28 <jjmcd> yeah, better than clone, build just to read it
23:44:35 <rudi> absolutely.
23:44:44 <nathant> rudi: but you're right, fixing bugs means checking out the repo
23:44:46 <rudi> The best is yet to come ;)
23:45:20 <jjmcd> We need to get nb and rudi in a room together so they can conspire, plot and scheme
23:45:21 <rudi> I meant that publishing drafts still means checking out the repo
23:45:55 <rudi> I'll start allocating some of my Fedora budget
23:46:14 <rudi> Which means I'll get there just as soon as airfares and accommodation are free as in beer :)
23:46:15 <jjmcd> For you newer folks, and there are a lot here, rudi makes magic happen in Publican, and nb makes magic happen in the infrastructure
23:46:21 <jjmcd> ;-)
23:46:38 <jjmcd> ANything else on guides?
23:47:07 <jjmcd> #topic Outstanding BZ Tickets
23:47:19 <jjmcd> #link http://tinyurl.com/lbrq84
23:47:35 <jjmcd> I'll breeze through this so we have a few minutes for general discussion
23:47:45 <jjmcd> Anyone need any help with any tickets?
23:48:32 <jjmcd> #topic Open floor discussion
23:48:49 <jjmcd> We have about 10 minutes.  Does anyone have anything else for the good of the order?
23:48:50 <nathant> going back to crantila's point re. systemd
23:49:11 <nathant> My understanding of it is sketchy at best
23:49:22 <crantila> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/systemd
23:49:28 <nathant> but is it actually a daemon itself?
23:49:38 <crantila> it replaced init
23:49:41 <crantila> replaces*
23:49:55 <nathant> Just trying to think which beat it should go under
23:50:05 <crantila> it runs in the background, so I figured it's a daemon.  Not sure about the category either
23:50:15 <jjmcd> Oh, quite possibly boot
23:50:22 <crantila> that makes more sense
23:51:01 <jjmcd> Rahul has tended to be helpful with release notes, so we might sucker him into taking the beat
23:51:32 <nathant> Ok perhaps he would have an opinion on where it should go
23:51:40 <rudi> Yeah, definitely boot
23:51:42 <jjmcd> Yes
23:52:04 <jjmcd> I see the release notes part of the feature page needs some expansion
23:52:37 <jjmcd> That might merit it's own beat
23:53:05 <jjmcd> No reason beats can't come and go depending on the needs of the release
23:53:26 <crantila> especially considering the focus of the RNs this release
23:53:32 <jjmcd> Yes
23:54:01 <b00blik_ru_br> Excuse me, may I ask a question?
23:54:06 <jjmcd> That might even be a highlight of the announcement ... building under the cover stuff to allow better later
23:54:10 <jjmcd> of course b00blik_ru_br
23:54:26 <b00blik_ru_br> I've been the first time, so I apologize if I ask a wrong question. How to Beat Writers receive pre-release for Fedora Beat writing? As all users, or they get some links? I haven't ever use pre-versions of Fedora, so I don't know about it.
23:55:05 <jjmcd> b00blik_ru_br, a lot of it can be done without actually installing the software.  But all of the packages are available on rawhide
23:55:26 <jjmcd> and generally, folks install the alpha, frequeltly on a USB stick or virtual machine
23:55:54 <jjmcd> In the past, I have often worked from a USB stick because it is so easy to roll back
23:56:04 <nathant> Rawhide is where all the fun stuff happens
23:56:06 <jjmcd> Just save off a copy of the persistent overlay file
23:56:11 <jjmcd> nathant, exactly
23:56:24 <jjmcd> Just remember; "Rawhide eats babies"
23:56:47 <rudi> b00blik_ru_br: we also rely on what developers write on the Feature pages
23:56:55 <jjmcd> I have tended not to install off rawhide on a real system, but stickster frequently does
23:57:48 <b00blik_ru_br> So I can download an entire system image or the desired package from the alpha version of the distribution, is not it?
23:57:53 <jjmcd> b00blik_ru_br, then as we get closer to release, there will be nightly composes where you can grab the very latest ISO
23:57:58 <jjmcd> that is correct
23:58:27 <b00blik_ru_br> thanks for information
23:58:37 <jjmcd> But it is a LOT more comfortable if you can do it to a stick or VM
23:58:55 <jjmcd> That way you can be as reckless as you want with little risk
23:59:10 <nathant> jjmcd: Is there a doc somewhere that explains the Fedora development process?
23:59:10 <jjmcd> Anything else?
23:59:35 <jjmcd> nathant, not that I know of.  There are a lot of ins and outs and they are changing a lot in the past few weeks
23:59:58 <jjmcd> Jesse Keating is kind of the expert, and he is real helpful
00:00:08 <nathant> jjmcd: I meant the whole Rawhide-Alpha-Beta-G.A. thing
00:00:20 <jjmcd> but as you get close to release he obviously gets real busy
00:00:41 <jjmcd> I suspect there is something, and whatever it is you can be confident it will be out of date
00:01:06 <jjmcd> Developers put stuff into rawhide pretty easily
00:01:26 <jjmcd> If you are a proven packager, you can pretty much stuff anything you want there
00:01:53 <jjmcd> You can tag it for distribution, but then release engineering will vet it if it is new, and it may or may not make it
00:02:13 <jjmcd> The Alpha, Beta and RC releases will mostly be bug fixes / making things compatible
00:02:36 <jjmcd> There is a documented set of rules about when it is OK to release an alpha, beta or final
00:02:59 <jjmcd> But every release RelEng finds some new issue they never thought of
00:03:10 <jjmcd> So those rules get updated all the time
00:03:27 <jjmcd> And sometimes, like on the devel list, there is animated discussion about them
00:03:37 <crantila> test@ is also a fun place to be
00:03:50 <jjmcd> Did you ever see Max's Governance talk?
00:04:14 <nathant> So can the alpha, beta and RC releases be thought of as snapshots of rawhide?
00:04:29 <rudi> nathant -- not really
00:04:30 <crantila> I haven't.  I'm sure others would appreciate a link, too
00:04:31 <cjb> nathant: nah, it's forked
00:04:31 <jjmcd> nathant, kind of.  More like snapshots of a subset of rawhide
00:04:31 <nathant> (in very simple terms)
00:04:37 <crantila> maybe we should move back to #fedora-docs?
00:04:46 <jjmcd> Yeah, we are past time
00:04:51 <jjmcd> Anything else for the meeting?
00:05:05 <jjmcd> OK, thanks everyone.  Good discussions tonight
00:05:13 <jjmcd> #endmeeting