21:00:10 <jforbes> #startmeeting Fedora Cloud
21:00:10 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Aug  5 21:00:10 2010 UTC.  The chair is jforbes. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
21:00:10 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
21:00:25 <onekopaka_laptop> oh this one is always fun
21:00:50 * DiscordianUK is here
21:00:56 * dcr226 
21:00:57 * onekopaka_laptop suggests a #topic Who's here?
21:01:05 <jforbes> #Topic Roll Call
21:01:12 * dcr226 
21:01:23 <DiscordianUK> DiscordianUK,
21:01:37 * zaitcev zaitcev is here
21:01:39 <jforbes> Anyone else?
21:01:59 <onekopaka_laptop> I'm somewhat here, but working on blogs.fp.o
21:02:10 <onekopaka_laptop> and its insane RewriteRules
21:02:19 <jforbes> #Topic EC2 Status
21:03:05 <jforbes> So, a bit of fail here, I just realized I never sent out the list of changes Amazon requested/suggested
21:03:35 <jforbes> I will send that out to the list right after the meeting
21:04:29 <jforbes> As for the feature, we missed the chopping block with agreement that working proof of concept would constitute 100% done for feature freeze purposes
21:04:51 <jforbes> Obviously nothing can really be done for F14 until there is release to actually push
21:04:57 <dcr226> I'd like to introduce myself, I'd like to contribute to the sig. I couldn't find a relevant fas group, but I support in #fedora and have a personal and commercial interest in EC2 (so i have an available account for testing)
21:05:22 <jforbes> Welcome to the madhouse :)
21:05:26 <dcr226> Hah, thanks
21:05:45 <DiscordianUK> Right i'm concerned with the idea you want to ship on day0 of F14
21:05:59 <jforbes> DiscordianUK: concerned how?
21:06:21 <DiscordianUK> That first week will be support hell on #fedora
21:06:42 <onekopaka_laptop> and wiki super caching
21:06:59 <fenris02> does ec2 still have an aversion to installing yum/rpm with proper .repo files?
21:07:06 <smooge> here
21:07:15 <jforbes> DiscordianUK: not sure how this will make it any worse, people needing EC2 help can be pointed to the wiki
21:07:18 <DiscordianUK> or do you have another support channel in mind>
21:08:02 <DiscordianUK> <disclaimer> I'm an op on #fedora </>
21:08:21 <jforbes> fenris02: ec2 will have the correct/same repo files.  Though we still need to get details on local EC2 mirrors
21:08:38 <onekopaka_laptop> no $basea please ;-)
21:09:05 <jforbes> onekopaka_laptop: heh, that wasn't us... That was a different company doing CentOS based images
21:09:16 <onekopaka_laptop> incorrectly configured EC2 RHEL images were requesting to Mirror Manager with $basea
21:09:28 <onekopaka_laptop> CentOS?
21:09:32 <DiscordianUK> Right
21:09:33 <jforbes> onekopaka_laptop: yup, the company that created those was contacted
21:09:33 <onekopaka_laptop> oh well
21:09:47 <onekopaka_laptop> and all your $basea belong to us
21:09:47 <fenris02> jforbes, why? MM should just work ...
21:09:57 <DiscordianUK> you ship fedora use out repos please
21:10:03 <DiscordianUK> our
21:10:11 <onekopaka_laptop> fenris02: because they were using $basea instead of $basearch
21:10:27 <onekopaka_laptop> fenris02: in their .repo file for EPEL
21:10:31 <jforbes> DiscordianUK: yup, that's the plan, they will use the same .repo files as any other F-14 install
21:10:43 <fenris02> onekopaka_laptop, err, talking about f14 ... not c5
21:10:44 <DiscordianUK> good good
21:10:46 <onekopaka_laptop> good.
21:10:54 <brianlamere> yeah, can't imagine why it would need to be any different than that
21:10:55 * dcr226 assumes it will be a f-14 install, converted to an ami and pushed to ec2
21:11:15 <onekopaka_laptop> fenris02: yes, but I remember $basea insanity because some EC2 machines were poorly configured.
21:11:16 <jforbes> what we need tio see, is getting local mirrors available.  Not critical, but nice to have
21:11:28 <brianlamere> just build it at ec2, no need to push it
21:11:31 <onekopaka_laptop> fenris02: and jforbes told me that it wasn't any of this team
21:11:49 <dcr226> brianlamere, with a kickstart?
21:12:04 <jforbes> it is built with a kickstart and pushed.
21:12:36 <fenris02> jforbes, how is it build?  what tool(s) do you use to generate the ami?
21:12:38 <onekopaka_laptop> jforbes: built on Fedora Infrastructure or EC2?
21:12:41 <dcr226> right, so you build locally and push to ec2?
21:12:52 <jforbes> onekopaka_laptop: yes, built locally
21:13:13 <onekopaka_laptop> okay
21:13:17 <jforbes> fenris02: the easiest way currently is to use boxgrinder, though ideally we would be using appliance-tools and euca2ools
21:13:45 <fenris02> are those tools current in f13/f14 ?
21:13:56 <brianlamere> ah, well my thing builds it there - eventually I'll work out having a spacewalk server build them there.  I don't care to build it locally
21:14:00 <jforbes> only thing stopping us right now is euca2ools needs the newest python-boto, which is not in F-14 yet
21:14:11 <dcr226> what about chrooting into a raw image file, deploy the package manifest into it and push?
21:14:25 <jforbes> dcr226: why mess with any of that
21:14:33 <fenris02> jforbes, related to py27 breakage, or needsponsor ?
21:14:38 <dcr226> because the tool itsn't available?
21:14:43 <dcr226> was just ooc
21:15:23 <jforbes> fenris02: umm, well discussed before, python-boto which works with the newest euca2ools is alpha, and there are concerns with upstream release timeframes
21:15:30 <brianlamere> it's not very fedora-centric at that point, though; such a process could do any distro just the same
21:15:41 <fenris02> jforbes, sorry for the rehash. understand. ta
21:15:50 <DiscordianUK> So let us be clear here, is this gonna use the F14 kernel?
21:16:25 <brianlamere> python-boto is alpha?
21:16:26 <jforbes> DiscordianUK: yes, no packages in the images are outside of the repos
21:17:10 <brianlamere> few years old, at 2.0 now :)
21:17:11 <DiscordianUK> Cool
21:17:22 * dcr226 would suggest, if its not already been done - to add some sort of EC2 tag to the kernel line, so uname -r reports itself when they come to #fedora for support
21:17:36 <jforbes> brianlamere: there is a new alpha release which has features required
21:17:52 <fenris02> dcr226, that would require building the package twice ...
21:17:54 <brianlamere> ah, ok
21:17:55 <jforbes> there is a python-boto in Fedora now, it is just too old
21:18:05 <dcr226> fenris02, yeah I know
21:18:06 <jforbes> dcr226: nooo
21:18:22 <jforbes> dcr226: there is no reason that an EC2 image should be any different than a local install image...
21:18:37 <fenris02> dcr226, appending to /etc/redhat-release in %post would be easier and less problematic ... but still troublesome
21:19:00 <onekopaka_laptop> reduces complexity if you just keep everything stock
21:19:02 <brianlamere> yeah, let people get the standard packages and updates, including kernel updates.  anything else is unhappiness
21:19:05 <dcr226> jforbes, the environment is different a little though, ssh connections and firewall rules might be problematic to diagnose maybe, but its only an observation
21:19:05 <fenris02> indeed.
21:19:26 <fenris02> "cat /proc/cpuinfo" should show ec2 signs though iirc
21:19:32 <dcr226> yup, point
21:19:42 <jforbes> not ec2 signs, but xen guest signs
21:19:48 * onekopaka_laptop has never touched an EC2 instance
21:20:26 <DiscordianUK> I want there to be some way to know it's EC2
21:20:26 <fenris02> jforbes, oh, my bad.  i thought they had been using something other than xen.  there's another cloud project whose name escapes me atm
21:20:43 <jforbes> fenris02: nope, xen
21:20:46 <jforbes> DiscordianUK: why?
21:21:00 <DiscordianUK> we have to deal with this on #fedora
21:21:28 <DiscordianUK> and knowing what exactly it is , is important
21:21:37 <brianlamere> a person won't know where their own system is?
21:21:50 <DiscordianUK> You'd be surprised
21:21:52 <jforbes> DiscordianUK: people will know
21:21:56 <onekopaka_laptop> not knowing where their own system is
21:21:59 <onekopaka_laptop> is pretty bad
21:22:10 <onekopaka_laptop> but EC2 is something you pay for
21:22:13 <onekopaka_laptop> actively.
21:22:14 <jforbes> DiscordianUK: It isn't exactly easy for anyone to just start up an EC2 image... You have to create an account and give thema a credit card number
21:22:26 <DiscordianUK> yes I know
21:22:29 <onekopaka_laptop> so I'm pretty sure they'd know they're on EC2
21:22:44 <DiscordianUK> but will they tell *us*
21:22:54 <onekopaka_laptop> hmm
21:23:03 <onekopaka_laptop> I don't think they'll tell you.
21:23:11 <DiscordianUK> see we get people lie all the time
21:23:27 <onekopaka_laptop> people just go in and lie about stuff?
21:23:28 <DiscordianUK> and it makes life difficult
21:23:33 <DiscordianUK> yes
21:23:38 <onekopaka_laptop> like what?
21:23:39 <jforbes> DiscordianUK: Generally speaking, it wont matter.  If they don't have EC2 specific questions, the answers will be the same for EC2 as they would be for any xen guest sitting on RHEL or CentOS
21:24:11 <DiscordianUK> about it being CentOS rather than Fedora etc etc
21:24:28 <onekopaka_laptop> DiscordianUK: that doesn't seem very fun.
21:24:37 <DiscordianUK> it isn't
21:25:39 <jforbes> Anything else on the EC2 status topic?
21:25:43 <brianlamere> yeah, it shouldn't end up being any different if it's a workstation sitting next to them, a VM in their server room, an ec2 instance, etc.  *shouldn't*
21:26:05 <DiscordianUK> I'll butt out now
21:26:09 <brianlamere> so it's official that it's too late to get in 14?
21:26:22 <jforbes> brianlamere: Well, xen guest is the only real differentiation.  There are not a ton of xen guests in the wild with F11/12/13
21:26:32 <onekopaka_laptop> infra is on the alpha freeze
21:26:41 <jforbes> brianlamere: ?It is schedued for F14
21:27:07 <brianlamere> oh, ok :)  I missed the first few minutes, and the first thing I saw I took to mean otherwise
21:28:11 <jforbes> Nope, status was just tricky to update since we are not writing new code for this, the feature isn't really in progress until images are available for testing at least.  I was told that the fact that we have F13 images for testing counted
21:28:26 <jforbes> brianlamere: we will spin F14 images at least with the beta
21:28:38 <jforbes> and then final should be available on release day
21:29:27 <dcr226> depending on how you package it, testing with 13 works to a degree
21:30:03 <jforbes> Anything else on the EC2 status topic?
21:30:11 <brianlamere> cool.  I already steal from rawhide for a couple things, I should really just build those things as my own packages but they're sortof basic-assumed (like openssh-server).  Several little things getting added in 14 I need today, darn it.
21:31:34 <jforbes> #Topic Open Floor
21:31:44 <zaitcev> Wait, what about Swift?
21:32:04 <jforbes> #Topic Swift
21:32:08 <jforbes> Okay...
21:32:13 <zaitcev> Silas is not here?
21:32:17 <jforbes> Sorry, didnt see new agenda items for this week
21:32:29 <zaitcev> Oooh, sorry, sorry. This was the previous week.
21:32:50 <jforbes> yup
21:33:32 <jforbes> But since we have the topic, anything to add or update on it?
21:33:52 <zaitcev> No, sorry. I thought maybe there was progress on packaging..
21:34:14 <jforbes> Last I saw it was waiting for sqlite updates
21:34:37 <zaitcev> Understood. Actually I thought it was merely a performance issue.
21:34:41 <jforbes> ianweller and gholms were going to lok at reviewing the packages, but don't seem to be present
21:35:51 <jforbes> #Topic Open Floor
21:36:21 <jforbes> Anyone have anything else they would like to discuss?
21:36:55 <dcr226> just to offer my services, as I said, I have an EC2 account so am happy to test stuff no problem
21:37:37 <DiscordianUK> I'll add my piece
21:38:04 <jforbes> There are instructions on the list for testing F-13 images... Testing is greatly appreciated
21:38:11 <DiscordianUK> I think there should be #fedora-ec2 for EC2 support
21:38:22 <dcr226> jforbes, cool, will do
21:38:45 <jforbes> DiscordianUK: biggest thing is finding people who want to support it there
21:39:05 <jforbes> DiscordianUK: and we are targeting multiple clouds, that is just the first... At some point you run out of channels
21:39:41 <DiscordianUK> You're gonna struggle with finding people on #fedora to support it#
21:40:46 <jforbes> DiscordianUK: how? The packages are the same ones that would be installed on a local system
21:41:15 <DiscordianUK> Except that the default login I believe is root
21:41:16 <brianlamere> well if it's an ec2 question, it's not really a fedora question.  Problems people have currently are based on being stuck at fed8 with old, ancient aki/aris.  With pv-grub that's not an issue; it's just fedora, no weird ancient kernel you can't update
21:41:24 <jforbes> DiscordianUK: no, it wont be
21:41:41 <DiscordianUK> I'm glad to hear that
21:41:48 <jforbes> DiscordianUK: that is on the list of things to change, root will not be able to log in, there will be a default user, and sudo access for that user
21:42:04 * dcr226 likes that idea
21:42:14 <DiscordianUK> bring it on
21:43:09 <DiscordianUK> F8 is old and has been EOL for years
21:43:23 <jforbes> DiscordianUK: but it is the newest Fedora on EC2, so people are still using it
21:43:47 <DiscordianUK> I'm shocked anyone on a #fedora channel even considers it relevant
21:44:11 <brianlamere> and if they do release updates to it, they'll find they're still unable to do things that require a newer kernel.  like, for instance, make an ext4 filesystem ;)
21:44:11 <jforbes> We don't other than it is motivation to get F13/F14 out
21:44:28 <dcr226> jforbes, ooc, will the ami be a community ami, or one of the default options?
21:44:36 <dcr226> ie, can you get rid of f8 appearing there?
21:44:55 <jforbes> DiscordianUK: FWIW, there will be released F13 images before F14 releases... so you will see the support load long before
21:45:21 <DiscordianUK> we dislike seeing F8 questions in #fedora
21:45:40 <onekopaka_laptop> I would dislike seeing such questions too
21:45:41 <DiscordianUK> they get redirected to #fedora-eol
21:45:45 <jforbes> dcr226: umm, not sure that we can get rid of F8's existence, we don't maintain that one, but Amazon will ensure that our images are tagged as official Fedora
21:46:08 <dcr226> jforbes, shame :(, but good news on being tagged as official
21:46:20 <DiscordianUK> The kernel aws ships for f8 isn't a fedora kernel
21:46:48 <jforbes> DiscordianUK: I thought it was kernel-xen
21:47:00 <jforbes> Either way, not really of concern to us
21:47:15 <DiscordianUK> its got an ec2 tag in the uname -r
21:47:40 <jforbes> Ahh, Amazon created the images, they might have done something special
21:47:48 <DiscordianUK> yes
21:48:10 <DiscordianUK> This had better be a real Fedora
21:48:23 <jforbes> Anything else before we close out?
21:48:46 <dcr226> yeah..
21:48:57 <dcr226> who's responsible for the build? I'll offer to lend a hand
21:49:22 <brianlamere> DiscordianUK:  that's the point of pv-grub; it reads /boot/menu.lst and boots your image "like normal" using a kernel that is updated with normal yum updates, etc
21:49:25 <jforbes> dcr226: for the moment, I am doing the official build, we hope by the F14 release, rel-eng will just be pressing a button
21:49:35 <brianlamere> it's a normal install
21:49:43 <dcr226> cool, I'll catch you in the channel at a sensible time then :)
21:50:20 <DiscordianUK> then it should be supportable with yum and rpm from the standard repos
21:50:24 <brianlamere> the only difference you may see in #fedora is that /boot/grub may look odd (as the contents aren't important, beyond menu.lst)
21:50:39 <brianlamere> yes - normal repos, just yum update
21:50:56 <onekopaka_laptop> great
21:51:21 <jforbes> DiscordianUK: yes, there is nothing special about the EC2 images at all..
21:51:33 <brianlamere> July15 changed the game for AWS, with pv-grub, which other smaller cloud providers (like linode) had already been using
21:51:41 <DiscordianUK> cool
21:52:13 <jforbes> DiscordianUK: That's what I have been trying to say :)
21:52:21 <brianlamere> that's why we say there's not much of a point, once the cloud feature is out, to having a channel for cloudie-peeps.  It's just a normal system :)
21:52:35 <DiscordianUK> and I wanted to clarify
21:53:22 <DiscordianUK> as the OPS SIG will be the front line IRC support
21:53:37 <jforbes> Okay, if there is nothing else, going to close out the meeting in 2 minutes
21:53:43 <DiscordianUK> as I hope you can appreciate
21:54:17 <brianlamere> well I appreciate it, but I'm just a guy ;)  I'm sure the actual cloud team appreciates it too
21:55:02 <jforbes> We kind of are the cloud team for Fedora purposes :) that's why the SIG was created
21:55:18 <DiscordianUK> I'll not bother you good folks again
21:55:39 <jforbes> Heh, not a bother
21:56:30 <brianlamere> yeah no - sorry DiscordianUK - it's only as of a couple weeks ago that it's this way, so it's an important question
21:56:32 <jforbes> Okay, going to close out, we will meet again next week, though I am not sure if I can make it... Going to be in Boston for the kvm forum and meetings
21:57:02 <jforbes> Thanks everyone for participating
21:57:07 <jforbes> #endmeeting