17:02:00 <sochotni> #startmeeting Java SIG -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Java
17:02:00 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Nov 16 17:02:00 2010 UTC.  The chair is sochotni. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:02:00 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:02:00 <zodbot> sochotni: Error: Can't start another meeting, one is in progress.
17:02:06 <sochotni> ehm :-)
17:02:16 <sochotni> #meetingname java-sig
17:02:16 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'java-sig'
17:02:34 <sochotni> #topic roll-call
17:02:39 * cspike is here
17:03:19 <sochotni> hmm, ok...let's continue like this maybe someone else will join in later on
17:03:26 <sochotni> #info cspike sochotni present
17:03:55 <sochotni> #topic Maven 3 update
17:04:14 <cspike> oh cool, how the custom resolver
17:04:21 <sochotni> so...current status issss...
17:04:23 <cspike> +verb
17:04:42 <sochotni> I resolved one big issue and can currently compile most of things...
17:04:46 <sochotni> there is one problem though
17:04:53 * abo2 is here...
17:05:04 <sochotni> abo2: welcome
17:05:09 <sochotni> nice to see you here
17:05:12 <abo2> thanks :)
17:05:48 <sochotni> well..the problem is that most packages that instal maven pom files and depmaps use non-working paths
17:06:02 <sochotni> so maven 3 can't find pom files in jpp mode..
17:06:19 <sochotni> I am guessing mvn2 didnt have problem because it mostly used pom files directly from jar files
17:06:22 <cspike> sochotni: let me guess: mixing jpp. jpp- and so on
17:06:26 <sochotni> (but that's just a guess now)
17:06:38 <sochotni> cspike: mostly mixed up "." and "-"
17:06:53 <sochotni> once I fix those filenames I always get further..
17:07:06 <sochotni> I get something like this:
17:07:07 <sochotni> [WARNING] The POM for net.sf.kxml:kxml2:jar:2.2.2 is invalid, transitive dependencies (if any) will not be available: 1 problem was encountered while building the effective model
17:07:11 <sochotni> [FATAL] Non-readable POM /usr/share/maven2/repository/JPP/maven2/default_poms/JPP-kxml.pom: /usr/share/maven2/repository/JPP/maven2/default_poms/JPP-kxml.pom (No such file or directory)
17:07:32 <sochotni> that causes compilation failures obviously since depmaps from pom.xml are not added to project
17:08:10 <cspike> ok, so we either need a provenpackager to touch all these broken packages, or you change the custom resolver and use a crazy regex
17:08:10 <sochotni> so far...I can't think of a way to make this work other than fixing all the packages (or doing some crazy stuff...)
17:08:24 <cspike> lol
17:08:36 <sochotni> cspike: yeah, regext might work but might introduce bugs that would be hard to identify...
17:08:53 <sochotni> right now mvn will tell you exactly where is the problem
17:09:33 <sochotni> I am hoping to become provenpackager soon-ish so I'll be able to fix all those things
17:10:08 <cspike> you could add a system.err.print (or whatever logging you use) to spit out something like "whoops, i couldn't match the expected path, trying with some other exp on blabla"
17:10:22 <cspike> so you don't have to rely on mvn to tell you whats wrong
17:10:28 <cspike> and where the compilation fails
17:11:02 <hannes|> sochotni, ;)
17:11:39 <cspike> sochotni: fixing all broken packages will take quite a bit of time. don't think you will be able to get this into f15
17:11:39 <sochotni> cspike: yeah, I'll know what happens but I am thinking about other packagers..
17:12:08 <sochotni> well there would be a lot of FTBFSs
17:12:26 <sochotni> ok...let's try middle ground
17:13:03 <sochotni> if the file doesn't exist I'll try different places..
17:13:19 <cspike> i mean it's your code, i won't tell you what to do. i just want to see maven3 as soon as possible.
17:13:31 <sochotni> cspike: patches welcome :-)
17:13:47 <cspike> sochotni: i had a feeling that you might say that :)
17:13:59 <sochotni> ok, let's move on..
17:14:20 <sochotni> cspike: you added the comps groups?
17:14:28 <sochotni> "Discuss Java and Java development comps groups content "
17:14:53 <sochotni> I have nothing to add to it at the moment actually...
17:15:17 <cspike> sochotni: no, actually that was alex. i asked him if i should add certain commons to comps and he said he'd like to discuss it here
17:15:18 <sochotni> akurtakov added this I assume but he had a surprise meeting
17:15:43 <sochotni> #topic Discuss Java and Java development comps groups content
17:16:05 <cspike> let's talk about this when akurtakov has some time to join us
17:16:17 <sochotni> yes, I think that would be better..
17:16:29 <sochotni> #info deferred until next meeting with more people :-)
17:16:39 <sochotni> #topic Change of meeting time
17:17:34 <sochotni> soo...accroding to vote: http://www.makeavote.net/mavsta13768.html
17:17:48 <sochotni> most people preferred Wednesdays 13:00 UTC
17:18:26 <sochotni> second was Tuesday 13:00 UTC
17:19:41 <cspike> well ok, i don't like it, but that's what people decided
17:20:18 <sochotni> well..the thing is that there were just 6 votes...hard to tell :-)
17:20:29 <sochotni> akurtakov didn't vote for that time as well
17:21:03 <cspike> and wed 13UTC just had 3 second places, so actually no one likes it :)
17:21:19 <hannes|> honestly I didn't vote because all alternatives were pretty early through the day. I could understand that it should be during office hours, or=
17:21:56 <sochotni> hannes|: didn't have to be...but I guess for most people it works out for the best during the day
17:22:13 <cspike> sochotni: what was the problem with the current meeting time?
17:22:15 <hannes|> sure
17:22:27 <sochotni> cspike: too late I guess?
17:22:51 <sochotni> several people had different things..
17:23:16 <cspike> sochotni: so the question is, will we get some more people here, when we do it on 13utc
17:23:24 <sochotni> ok, honestly I don't think wednesday at 13:00 would work for more people...just me and guido placed it "on the pedestal"
17:24:01 <cspike> hannes|, abo2: does wed 13utc work any better that tue 17utc for you?
17:24:32 <sochotni> I think hannes| actually prefers later hours just as it is now, right?
17:24:33 <hannes|> I don't want to decide this.
17:24:41 <sochotni> hannes|: :-)
17:24:57 <sochotni> you would not be deciding it...just voicing your preference :-)
17:25:05 <cspike> sochotni: do you know, if akurtakov has any problem with tue 17utc?
17:25:16 <cspike> rl meeting or something?
17:25:20 <sochotni> right now...yes
17:25:23 <hannes|> yeah of course but I don't think my preference should matter on this decision ;)
17:25:33 <sochotni> since the summer time changed he has different meeting right now
17:25:47 <cspike> sochotni: ok, if wed 13utc works for you and akurtakov, so be it
17:26:04 <hannes|> but btw what if people would like to join from north america?
17:26:07 <sochotni> cspike: he didn't vote for wed, but I think it worked for him
17:26:30 <sochotni> hannes|: yes, that's true...but so far noone from US got in touch :-)
17:26:38 <cspike> hannes|: they don't have java in the us, they do .net :)
17:27:07 <sochotni> ok, meeting time stays as it is for now...I'll talk to akurtakov and we'll see
17:27:31 <cspike> so once again, democracy doesn't work :)
17:27:32 <sochotni> if he can't move his other meeting, or prefers that wednesday one...we'll move it
17:27:38 <sochotni> cspike: seems like it..
17:27:40 <abo2> cspike: I,m here because I,m ircing on my phone on the way home, but honestly I don't think I should decide...
17:28:06 <sochotni> abo2: so generally you travel at this time...
17:28:21 <sochotni> maybe you'll stay longer @ work once every 2 weeks or so :-)
17:28:39 <cspike> sochotni: just talk to alex and pick a new date if the current one does interfere with his/your duties.
17:28:46 <abo2> yup �) I guess it'd be typical for a european
17:28:50 <sochotni> ok, I guess that's it for today's agenda..
17:28:56 <akurtakov> fwiw I won't be able to attend any meeting at 17:00 UTC on tuesdays
17:29:07 <sochotni> akurtakov: yeah, thought so...
17:29:14 <sochotni> wednesdays 13:00 UTC work?
17:29:22 <akurtakov> yes
17:29:31 <sochotni> ok, wednesdays 13:00 UTC it is...
17:29:53 <sochotni> #agreed (sort of) SIG meeting time changed to 13:00 UTC every other wednesday at fedora-meeting
17:29:53 <cspike> that was a toughy
17:30:48 <sochotni> now that I think about it the vote should have been...pick all time that work for you and we should have picked time that had most "x"-es
17:31:00 <sochotni> bah, I am bad at politics
17:31:04 <cspike> :)
17:31:11 <sochotni> #topic open-floor
17:31:30 <sochotni> abo2: so, welcome to your fist SIG meeting :-)
17:31:58 <cspike> abo2: oh yeah, hope you brought food for everyone...
17:32:00 <sochotni> if you can please check I incorporated your previous packaging guidelines into our new ones OK
17:32:13 <abo2> heh, thansk :)
17:32:14 <sochotni> oh...almost forgot...
17:32:28 <sochotni> We have new packaging guidelines (FPC approved our changes)
17:32:42 <sochotni> so..in short...no more -%{version} in jars/javadocs
17:32:49 <sochotni> and other tweaks
17:33:03 <cspike> sochotni: did the fpc vote on this yet?
17:33:06 <sochotni> cspike: yes
17:33:09 <sochotni> last week
17:33:27 <sochotni> akurtakov and me had to explain a few things, but generally it went smooth
17:33:35 <abo2> Yeah, I diffed them yesterday, it looks good. I do think my sample delete-jar code is better though...
17:34:24 <abo2> or warn-abo-jars rather
17:34:29 <sochotni> abo2: I'd like to actually create/update set of macros for java packaging one we get major stuff in good shape
17:34:47 <cspike> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Guidelines is up2date?
17:34:57 <abo2> Yes, macros would be very neat
17:34:57 <cspike> wrong like
17:35:44 <cspike> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Java
17:36:18 <tibbs> It's current as of the guideline revision passed six days ago.
17:36:26 <cspike> tibbs: thanks
17:36:31 <tibbs> I don't think there's anything additional pending except for perhaps some typo fixing.
17:36:53 <sochotni> should be
17:37:00 <tibbs> Feel free to file tickets for any additional changes you feel need doing.
17:37:04 <sochotni> cspike: ^
17:37:15 <tibbs> Or if it's simple stuff like fixing typos, just ask me and I'll make the changes.
17:37:32 <cspike> ok, thanks
17:38:46 <sochotni> creating a set of helper functions/macros for java spec files would be nice..
17:38:53 <sochotni> add_to_maven_depmap could be improved a lot..
17:39:00 <sochotni> but that's for a later time..
17:39:13 <sochotni> unless someone finds time to do it now..
17:39:51 <sochotni> so...anyone has anything to add?
17:40:15 <sochotni> abo2: btw...you might look @ the SIG page...maybe you'll find something you can help us with?
17:40:22 <sochotni> can & want that is :-)
17:41:07 <sochotni> oh...almost forgot..
17:41:20 <sochotni> we have a FE-JAVASIG tracking bug (thanks to akurtakov)
17:41:39 <sochotni> anything that needs our attention can block it..
17:41:47 <sochotni> #link https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=652183 FE-JAVASIG tracking bug
17:41:54 <abo2> I know more about shell scripting than java packaging, I guess that's where I can help. I can write Java code though so I'm not totally helpless. :)
17:42:32 <sochotni> abo2: I am not much of a Java developer myself...
17:42:51 <sochotni> abo2: so maybe you could see if you could create additional macros for java packaging?
17:43:18 <sochotni> for example add_to_maven_depmap would automatically install pom/jar file with correct name
17:43:26 <sochotni> (that'a problem right now)
17:43:58 <cspike> ^ that would be cool, you could skip the jpp.- stuff
17:44:17 <akurtakov> sochotni: I would like to see add_to_maven_depmap enhanced once we get maven 3 and a way to move depmap from /etc
17:44:18 <abo2> I should be able to but I guess I need to grok maven first
17:45:45 <sochotni> abo2: ah, no need to rush...just an idea
17:46:09 <sochotni> akurtakov: yeah, it just came to my mind with those problems with maven3 actually..
17:47:12 <akurtakov> so I'm available now
17:47:23 <akurtakov> do you want to speak about comps?
17:47:40 <sochotni> sure, why not...
17:48:11 <sochotni> #topic Discuss Java and Java development comps groups content
17:48:13 <akurtakov> so we have 2 Java groups
17:48:39 <sochotni> those being?
17:48:59 <akurtakov> Java and Java Development
17:49:16 <akurtakov> let's talk about Java
17:49:46 <sochotni> it's just gcj and openjdk...
17:50:04 <sochotni> the gcj is mandatory..
17:50:08 <akurtakov> what do we want it to be - yeah, I would propose dropping the gcj and making it only jre
17:50:16 <akurtakov> I mean openjdk
17:50:25 <sochotni> Is it likely to cause any problems?
17:50:26 <akurtakov> and plugin
17:50:33 <sochotni> I guess not as long as we keep libgcj
17:51:29 <akurtakov> sochotni: why do we need to keep libgcj?
17:52:00 <sochotni> wouldn't it stop gcj-compiled packages from working?
17:52:25 <sochotni> wait...
17:52:36 <sochotni> that would be pulled in through requires I guess
17:52:39 <sochotni> so not a problem
17:52:42 <akurtakov> sochotni: yes
17:53:04 <akurtakov> sochotni: so let it be openjdk + plugin + webstart ?
17:53:09 <akurtakov> whatever the current rpms
17:53:11 <akurtakov> are
17:53:34 <akurtakov> anyone?
17:53:37 <sochotni> yeah I'd say that's reasonable for "Java" group...
17:53:44 <sochotni> at least from my POV...
17:54:02 <sochotni> If I was a user and installed "Java" I'd want to have webstart and firefox plugin as well
17:54:22 <sochotni> not much else that a user can expect...
17:54:36 <akurtakov> cspike: ?
17:54:41 <akurtakov> abo2: ?
17:54:44 <cspike> sounds good to me
17:55:20 <akurtakov> so we do agree to change it
17:55:28 <akurtakov> now move to Java Development
17:55:46 <sochotni> #agreed Java group will contain only openjdk (sub) packages, gcj will be removed
17:56:07 <sochotni> I'd say we should split it into different groups?
17:56:21 <akurtakov> yeah, javadocs
17:56:26 <akurtakov> I thought the same too
17:56:35 <akurtakov> either drop them or make a separate group
17:57:03 <sochotni> that too, plus maybe separate webservice development and application development?
17:57:18 <akurtakov> sochotni: ??
17:57:42 <sochotni> nah, just read through the comps...thought it's more mixed than that
17:57:57 <sochotni> I was expecting to find even tomcat and eclipse in there
17:58:33 <sochotni> but those javadocs should be separated I'd say..
17:58:41 <sochotni> most people read docs on the web anyway I'd say
17:58:56 <akurtakov> my proposal is no javadocs, no gcj
17:59:24 <akurtakov> just ant+maven+essentian ant tasks + essential maven plugins
17:59:24 <cspike> drop them. a person knowing about javadocs will find out how to install them
17:59:28 <sochotni> I'd say gcj is in the same place as with "java" group
17:59:47 <sochotni> akurtakov: right on
17:59:51 <sochotni> let's do it
18:00:17 <akurtakov> it doesn't make sense to create separate javadoc group
18:00:21 <sochotni> #agreed "Java Development" will be stripped of javadocs and gcj parts. Basic maven/ant plugins and essential libs stay
18:00:37 <akurtakov> at least until we manage to crosslink all javadocs we ship
18:00:55 <cspike> +1, they are not *that* useful at the moment anyway
18:01:10 <akurtakov> ok, I'm glad we are on the same page
18:01:31 <sochotni> yeah, see no problem with removing them from comps..
18:01:47 <sochotni> #agreed Javadocs group will not be created
18:02:13 <akurtakov> there is also Eclipse group which we can add to the devel group if you think so
18:03:02 <sochotni> hmm...not yet. I'd say people don't have to use Eclipse for java development :-)
18:03:14 <sochotni> althought Netbeans are going away it seems
18:03:37 <akurtakov> I totally agree - IDEs have no place in basic devel groups
18:03:39 <cspike> and people do use eclipse for a lot of different things
18:03:54 <cspike> that may have nothing to do with java at all
18:04:02 <sochotni> cspike: also true
18:04:06 <sochotni> cdt...
18:04:16 <sochotni> or whatitsname
18:04:50 <akurtakov> sochotni: looking for eclipse-dltk-ruby ? :)
18:05:02 <sochotni> no comment
18:05:08 <sochotni> :-)
18:05:20 <sochotni> ok, I gotta run or my dinner will get cold...
18:05:28 <sochotni> should I close it up or you want to continue?
18:05:32 <sochotni> I'll give you chair..
18:05:41 <akurtakov> just finish
18:05:44 <cspike> +1
18:05:48 <sochotni> #endmeeting