18:09:54 <dgilmore> #startmeeting
18:09:54 <zodbot> Meeting started Fri Dec  3 18:09:54 2010 UTC.  The chair is dgilmore. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:09:54 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:10:10 <dgilmore> #meetingname releng
18:10:10 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'releng'
18:10:23 * abadger1999 watches from the cheap seats
18:10:28 <dgilmore> #topic init
18:10:40 <dgilmore> ping to all interested in the releng meeting
18:10:44 <dgilmore> who is here?
18:10:54 * nirik is around.
18:11:19 <dgilmore> Oxf13: ping
18:12:26 <dgilmore> #info nirik abadger1999 dgilmore present
18:13:28 <dgilmore> #topic meetings going forward
18:13:28 <Oxf13> I'm here.
18:13:56 <dgilmore> there was not alot of response to the whenisgood
18:14:19 * notting is here now
18:14:31 <dgilmore> but going forward from this week we will move to 20:00 UTC
18:14:42 <dgilmore> #info notting and Oxf13 present
18:15:17 * nirik is fine with 20:00 utc
18:15:38 <dgilmore> there was one respondent who prefered the meeting to be much later
18:15:56 <dgilmore> as they are not available during the US day time
18:16:07 <Oxf13> yeah, that's hard to balance
18:17:32 <dgilmore> right
18:17:55 <dgilmore> #topic open floor
18:18:08 <dgilmore> I really dont have much on the agenda for this week
18:18:29 <dgilmore> does anyone have anything they want to bring up?
18:19:23 * nirik doesn't have anything off hand.
18:19:40 <dgilmore> Oxf13: the three java packages for gcc have been rebuilt
18:19:44 <dgilmore> ill get them tagged in
18:19:48 * notting doesn't, but he hasn't been paying attention to the ticket queue that closely
18:20:44 <dgilmore> ok well if no one has anything ill close in 30. going forward ill work on getting an agenda posted the day before the meeting
18:20:48 <nirik> oh, there was some mention on the board list about rel-eng not really having join info.
18:20:49 <dgilmore> sent to the rel-eng list
18:20:53 <abadger1999> Growing releng... How can I help with that?
18:21:00 <nirik> abadger1999: jinx. ;)
18:21:04 <abadger1999> :-)
18:21:07 <dgilmore> abadger1999: good question
18:21:14 <Oxf13> dgilmore: don't forget to sign them when they get tagged
18:21:23 * nirik also has been meaning to finish up updates pushing SOP and such. Will try and get that sometime.
18:22:00 <dgilmore> all releng tasks require special permissions of some sort
18:22:08 <nirik> I think having a join wiki page and mention the meetings would be a good start.
18:22:12 <abadger1999> <nod>
18:22:26 <Oxf13> I did write up an SOP on what to do when a new releng member joins, eg what permissions we could give them and where
18:22:27 <dgilmore> either perms in koji to tag/block/unblock packages
18:22:47 <dgilmore> Oxf13: ill go over that again
18:22:48 <Oxf13> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Adding_new_release_engineer
18:23:15 <abadger1999> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Adding_new_release_engineer
18:23:27 <abadger1999> Oxf13 is too fast for me :-)
18:24:45 <abadger1999> dgilmore: I've noticed that a lot of sysadmins go through sysadmin-noc before branching out to other areas... is there an equivalent entry-level task within releng?
18:25:18 <dgilmore> abadger1999: the most simplest task is probably tagging buildroot overrides
18:25:24 * nirik nods.
18:25:33 <dgilmore> abadger1999: thats probably a good starting point
18:25:43 <abadger1999> <nod>  So they'd need permission in koji.
18:25:45 <dgilmore> and we can isolate the permissions needed for that
18:25:51 <dgilmore> abadger1999: correct
18:26:08 <nirik> I thought koji was all admin or not admin?
18:26:55 <Oxf13> not anymore
18:27:03 <dgilmore> nirik: no we can create groups
18:27:08 <Oxf13> it's easier to do it that way, but doesn't have to be that way
18:27:14 <nirik> nice.
18:27:19 <dgilmore> and we can grant the group permission to someone
18:27:25 <dgilmore> and require that group for overrides
18:27:56 * dgilmore feels pretty ok with giving that access to people to help with overrides
18:27:57 * nirik wonders if we shouldn't also extend that to all provenpackages or packagers... many people could self serv add to buildroot override.
18:28:09 <dgilmore> and not worry about giving the whole set of koji keys
18:28:28 <notting> nirik: given the effect it has on other builds, my inclination is that it's better to have tickets to track what's going on
18:28:46 <dgilmore> notting: i tend to agree
18:28:54 <nirik> ok, just a thought.
18:30:44 <dgilmore> so we should probably go though the SOPs and rank them or something to show some order of progression
18:32:15 <abadger1999> I'll add a link to the buildroot override SOP to http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ReleaseEngineering as a "This might be the first task you do when starting in releng" and link to ReleaseEngineering from the wiki/Join page later today if that seems like a good idea
18:32:34 <abadger1999> +1 for figuring out a progression.
18:33:23 <Oxf13> another thing they can help with is root cause analysis, eg rawhide buildroots are screwed, what's going on?
18:33:24 <dgilmore> abadger1999: cool
18:33:47 <Oxf13> or "I got this funky package build failure, why?"
18:34:00 <Oxf13> those things can be investigated and reported on without needing any permissions
18:34:04 <dgilmore> Oxf13: right, helping debugging failures of builds/buildroots is a way to help and doesnt require any perms
18:34:39 <dgilmore> all packagers, want to be packagers can do it
18:34:50 <abadger1999> <nod>
18:37:18 <dgilmore> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Adding_new_release_engineer
18:37:41 <dgilmore> #task dgilmore to rank sops into a progression path
18:38:10 <dgilmore> #info we need to provide better information on how to get started with rel-eng
18:38:19 <dgilmore> anything else?
18:39:55 * dgilmore will close in 30
18:40:40 <dgilmore> #endmeeting