16:30:01 <nirik> #startmeeting IRC Support SIG (2011-01-13)
16:30:01 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Jan 13 16:30:01 2011 UTC.  The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:30:01 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:30:01 <nirik> #meetingname irc-support-sig
16:30:01 <nirik> #topic init process
16:30:01 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'irc-support-sig'
16:30:09 <nirik> who all is around for an irc support sig meeting?
16:30:15 * EvilBob 
16:30:53 <EvilBob> And I have an item for a topic before we go "open floor"
16:31:08 <nirik> EvilBob: ok.
16:32:14 <hicham> only sig members do count ?
16:32:30 <EvilBob> Everyone counts
16:32:40 <EvilBob> some are just discounted
16:32:47 <EvilBob> ;)
16:32:55 * dcr226 shuffles in, stands by a radiator
16:33:15 * nirik starts up some bacon. Perhaps that will get people to arrive.
16:33:17 <kanarip> ping-ish
16:33:26 <EvilBob> Hello kanarip
16:33:26 <kanarip> or pong-ish
16:33:30 <kanarip> hello EvilBob
16:33:34 <kanarip> long time no see!
16:34:00 <EvilBob> ;)
16:34:26 * Sonar_Guy 
16:34:40 * EvilBob shoots a spitball at Sonar_Guy
16:34:42 <nirik> ok, lets go ahead and dive in.. .
16:34:49 <nirik> #topic Week in review
16:34:50 <nirik> http://fedora.theglaserfamily.org/ircstats/fedora-weekly.html
16:35:04 <nirik> reasonably busy week...
16:35:12 <nirik> seemed like a lot of new users for some reason.
16:35:18 <EvilBob> Stats fixed! Thank You Sonar_Guy
16:35:19 <nirik> (new years resolutions? :)
16:35:27 * hicham waves to Sonar_Guy
16:35:28 <nirik> yes, thanks Sonar_Guy for fixing up the stats. :)
16:35:29 <Sonar_Guy> EvilBob: NP
16:35:32 <Sonar_Guy> NP
16:36:00 <Fiver> nirik: Maybe people who got new hardware over the holidays contributed?
16:36:08 <nirik> yeah, could be...
16:37:06 <nirik> anyone have anything they would like to note or shout out from the previous week?
16:37:16 <dcr226> drive-by trolling from mikeusa
16:37:23 <nirik> because of the new users, I would urge people to try and be extra patient
16:37:36 <dcr226> introduced by another user, under the pretense of support
16:37:59 * dcr226 notes he's not exposing anyone, mikeusa is a very well known troll, think he managed to last about 3 minutes
16:38:08 * nirik doesn't recall that. What could we learn or improve from it?
16:38:19 <kanarip> note new users can also seek support all of a sudden due to some mistake in a current release's updates or somesuch
16:38:35 <EvilBob> kanarip: UNPOSSIBLE!
16:38:40 <nirik> sure. Althought I don't know of any updates issues currently...
16:38:40 <kanarip> or because overall some or the other series of things have become increasingly difficult to achieve
16:38:45 <dcr226> nirik, nothing, I was guilty of saying it was ok, so long as he wanted support. instead he just trolled -social for a few minutes
16:39:15 <nirik> I do note that since rpmfusion put out the catalyst kmod, it's been a lot of hassle... I'm not sure anyone has it working.
16:39:25 <kanarip> just stating a few considerations for correlating the number of new users to potential causes ;-)
16:39:37 * Southern_Gentlem 
16:39:52 * Sonar_Guy kicks Southern_Gentlem in the shin!
16:40:03 <kanarip> nirik, are you saying i should revert forcefully? ;-)
16:40:05 * EvilBob ^5 Sonar_Guy
16:40:29 * Sonar_Guy ^5s EvilBob
16:40:38 <nirik> kanarip: absolutely. ;) (no, do as you like... I just haven't heard anyone say they got it working yet... so now I guess I have?)
16:40:42 * kanarip ^55 both
16:41:08 <kanarip> nirik, i can only revert by abusing root@rpmfusion.org so it's not a sensible solution
16:41:22 <nirik> :)
16:41:30 <nirik> ok, we have no tickets this week...
16:41:35 <nirik> EvilBob: you had a topic?
16:41:46 <EvilBob> #topic Install/Upgrade failure types
16:41:47 <dcr226> nirik, there was one, early week - got closed in the end
16:41:51 <Southern_Gentlem> nirik,  i think that is most of us dont have ati hardware to even guess at problems
16:41:53 <nirik> #topic Install/Upgrade failure types
16:42:03 <nirik> dcr226: yep.
16:42:34 <EvilBob> As *we* all know here are some issues with some of the suggested/promoted install types and upgrade methods
16:42:52 <EvilBob> LiveCD, preupgrade... a few others
16:43:05 <EvilBob> We NEED to get this stuff documented
16:43:16 * nirik wonders if we could get anaconda to log which method people use somewhere...
16:43:22 <EvilBob> Bugs Filed, a document somewhere
16:43:39 <nirik> touch /root/this-system-was-preupgraded.approach-with-caution. ;)
16:43:45 * nirik nods.
16:43:50 <EvilBob> These problems are rampant and reoccurring release after release
16:44:23 <EvilBob> If we have any hope of getting them fixed *WE* have to do something about it, no one else will
16:44:50 <EvilBob> If you have not noticed there is some threads from hell on the FAB list
16:44:56 <nirik> sounds reasonable. How should we best move forward? participate in test days for next release? or ?
16:45:00 <EvilBob> http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/advisory-board/2011-January/thread.html
16:45:32 <Southern_Gentlem> we are the ones that see the problems no report no problem
16:45:50 <nirik> we should also urge people we help that run into issues to report them...
16:45:55 <EvilBob> Some of these are about using LiveMedia in new ways, One is about abandoning the traditional anaconda installer the way it reads to me
16:46:21 <EvilBob> These ideas scream failure
16:46:32 <nirik> EvilBob: a lot of them are just talk, IMHO. Especially since real stakeholders are not involved there...
16:46:48 <EvilBob> I do not believe anyone in RE or FESCo will do anything crazy
16:47:14 <EvilBob> But just the ideas being out there is dangerous, so we need the facts documented
16:47:35 <EvilBob> Please help me out in this effort if you can
16:47:52 <EvilBob> Thanks, that's it
16:48:03 <nirik> ok. Thanks for the info EvilBob.
16:48:20 <EvilBob> Oh and if you are involved in the LiveCD and preupgrade projects, PLEASE help us out in #fedora
16:49:07 <EvilBob> You know your software, you should know what we see. You can debug the issues better than we can, and we can learn from you so we can help you.
16:49:31 * EvilBob kicks the Soapbox back to the corner
16:49:41 <dcr226> mock, late - there's a letter going home about this
16:49:42 <nirik> sounds good.
16:49:44 <EvilBob> mock: You can have your chair back
16:50:18 <nirik> #topic Open Floor
16:50:23 <nirik> anyone have anything for open floor?
16:50:55 <mock> what about bacon not making the social list?
16:51:03 <EvilBob> We need to find a way that is productive to deal with new users that have hurt "feelings"
16:51:23 <dcr226> EvilBob, virtual-hug?
16:51:37 * mock looks around for vwbusguy
16:51:39 * dvanstone laughs
16:51:42 <EvilBob> We have had issues with this in the past. They don't pop up often.
16:51:59 <EvilBob> But when they do they get ugly quick
16:52:23 <EvilBob> and it reflects poorly on the good works we do 99.999% of the time
16:52:40 * dcr226 thinks stuff gets dealt with just fine at the moment, never gonna stop folks taking it to heart, especially if the solution/comment questions their technical competence
16:52:44 <nirik> yep.
16:52:56 <mock> disclaimer saying "you're bound to have your feelings hurt.  expect it."?
16:52:57 <nirik> I think one thing we could do better in those cases is be more minimal.
16:53:02 <EvilBob> I guess, don't ban people from -ops unless there is no other choice
16:53:13 <nirik> ie, file your ticket and we will look at it in a day or so when you have relaxed.
16:53:56 <dcr226> nirik, +1
16:53:59 <EvilBob> banning people from one of the places we have for them to vent or express their frustration is bad form in most cases
16:54:09 * nirik points again at http://freenode.net/catalysts.shtml
16:54:12 <mock> #fedora-time-out
16:54:20 <nirik> EvilBob: I agree
16:54:24 <dcr226> EvilBob, -ops is for venting?
16:54:37 <dcr226> I can think of a case, where the venting would have just gone on and on
16:54:38 <EvilBob> mock: or go scream in #fedora-unregistered
16:54:45 <mock> there you go
16:54:48 <EvilBob> dcr226: Sure
16:55:09 <EvilBob> dcr226: there are those extreme cases when there is no option
16:55:25 <dcr226> meh, I'd always considered it to be a safe-haven away from trolling. but yeah, whatever works :-)
16:55:39 <EvilBob> but a flat ban with out a time that they should come back is a bad idea
16:55:40 <dcr226> ok, my description of its purpose sucks
16:55:59 <dcr226> yeah, I'd agree with that - cooling off period
16:56:17 <dcr226> we still need some sort of ban-tracker to save confusion
16:56:17 <EvilBob> "Hey Jimmy, I need you to take a break for 6 hours, come back and talk to us then" BANHAMMER
16:56:47 <EvilBob> just to kickban does not help the user
16:57:03 * nirik nods.
16:57:05 <EvilBob> Their issue still exists and is fresh
16:57:28 <EvilBob> with a return point they have a chance to cool and sort it a little
16:57:41 <EvilBob> EOR
16:58:27 <EvilBob> PLus there is a chance for uninvolved ops to then help the user sort out from a neutral POV
16:58:53 <nirik> yeah, agreed.
16:59:06 <EvilBob> nirik: Can those of us that have -social ops get them in -ops also please
16:59:27 <EvilBob> right now we are powerless to do the above suggestion
16:59:37 <dcr226> ah, you just reminded me - am I suppose to have -social +o also? could have done with it the other morning
16:59:55 <EvilBob> dcr226: You should have it via the bot
16:59:58 <dcr226> nah
17:00:02 <nirik> well, I'm fine with that... but we might want others to chime in.
17:00:14 <dcr226> +1, +o for all ops on -ops
17:00:38 <Southern_Gentlem> +1
17:00:45 <EvilBob> there are times when there is not other ops around
17:00:47 <Sonar_Guy> +1
17:01:25 <nirik> sure, ok.
17:01:30 * nirik can get folks added.
17:01:51 <EvilBob> #fedora ops should have -social ops and all ops should have -ops ops...
17:02:00 <dcr226> EvilBob, +1
17:02:15 <nirik> they should via the bot already I think... ?
17:02:31 <EvilBob> Perhaps it is just an oversight
17:02:44 <EvilBob> we should check it and confirm after the meeting
17:02:45 <dcr226> nah
17:02:50 <dcr226> doesn't work - I just tried
17:03:03 <EvilBob> I don't have anything more
17:03:26 * nirik will get it sorted out out of band
17:03:33 <EvilBob> Thank you all for the support you give
17:04:04 <EvilBob> We do a good job but there is always a little room for tweaking
17:04:15 <EvilBob> even if it is tweaking mock's ear
17:04:20 <nirik> aboslutely. Always room to get better.
17:04:24 <Fiver> I'm not sure if it's been considered before, but some irc networks and/or channels have an etiquette page to help remind the regulars and at the same time educate new visitors about.. well, etiquette.  Freenode doesn't appear to, but one could be made for #fedora.  http://encyclopediadramatica.com/ED_IRC_etiquette is an example that (I think) makes some interesting points, though clearly some of it is specific to ED.
17:04:25 <nirik> Thanks for the hard work everyone...
17:04:38 <EvilBob> Fiver: We have one
17:04:46 <Fiver> oh, well ignore me then :)
17:05:00 <EvilBob> /ignore Fiver
17:05:05 <EvilBob> ;)
17:05:07 * gholms is amused by the choice of example
17:05:10 <Fiver> heh
17:05:16 <kanarip> Fiver, it's actually called netiquette ;-)
17:05:24 <nirik> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Channel_FAQ
17:05:27 <kanarip> nevermind random etiquettes out there
17:05:30 <mock> what's wrong with my ear?
17:05:30 <Fiver> gholms:  It was sort of a random google hit :)
17:05:30 <EvilBob> gholms: You have something better?
17:05:34 <nirik> it's in the topic, but sadly, many people don't see the topic. ;)
17:05:54 <gholms> EvilBob: Nope.  ED is just… ED.  ;)
17:05:56 <EvilBob> We are open to suggestions and additions for the wiki page
17:06:03 <EvilBob> gholms: Rock On
17:06:07 <dcr226> mock, the left is lower than the right
17:06:13 * mock loves the /topic
17:06:17 <nirik> gholms: it's THE unix editor. ;)
17:06:23 <gholms> Heh
17:06:42 <gholms> Thankfully SUS also guarantees us vi.  :)
17:06:46 * gholms shuts up now
17:06:59 <EvilBob> nirik: Oh one question
17:07:12 <nirik> shoot.
17:07:46 <EvilBob> nirik: where is the best place for users to chat with the developers of preupgrade and LiveCD install, for issues
17:07:59 <nirik> good question.
17:08:12 <nirik> I can try and find out.
17:08:15 <kanarip> #fedora-devel or in Private Message ;-)))
17:08:20 <EvilBob> You know users that want to be productive and help sort out the problems
17:08:39 <EvilBob> Not those that just want to jump to DistroX
17:09:05 <EvilBob> If DistroX exists it is just an example name
17:09:25 <mock> haha
17:10:14 <EvilBob> nirik: Even if we had a lead triager contact point
17:10:28 <nirik> yeah, will see what I can find out. I suspect for live it would be the anaconda folks...
17:10:31 <nirik> but not sure on preupgrade.
17:10:34 <hicham> "ubuntu have package X", "that works in ubuntu", " I am coming from distro X and want an equivalent of ..." ...
17:10:51 <nirik> anyhow, anyone have anything else? or shall we call it a meeting?
17:11:49 <EvilBob> hicham: That is sometimes easy, yum install
17:12:02 <EvilBob> hicham: other times... WTF is that...
17:12:06 <EvilBob> ;)
17:12:09 <mock> i got here late (sorry).  was the bacon matter explained?
17:12:12 <kanarip> apt stinks
17:12:17 <nirik> mock: it's a mystery. ;)
17:12:24 <mock> nirik: oh, ok
17:12:25 <nirik> thanks for coming everyone!
17:12:30 <nirik> #endmeeting