13:10:57 <liknus> #startmeeting FAmSCo 2011-01-29
13:10:57 <zodbot> Meeting started Sat Jan 29 13:10:57 2011 UTC.  The chair is liknus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
13:10:57 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
13:11:06 <liknus> #chair kaio
13:11:06 <zodbot> Current chairs: kaio liknus
13:11:12 <liknus> #topic RollCall
13:11:15 <liknus> .fas ppapadeas
13:11:18 <zodbot> liknus: ppapadeas 'Papadeas Pierros' <ppapadeas@gmail.com>
13:11:46 <gbraad-china> .fas gbraad
13:11:48 <zodbot> gbraad-china: gbraad 'Gerard Braad (吉拉德)' <fedora@gbraad.nl>
13:12:18 <liknus> ping kaio lcafiero
13:12:20 <lcafiero> .fas lcafiero
13:12:20 <zodbot> lcafiero: lcafiero 'Larry Cafiero' <larrycafiero@cruzio.com>
13:12:33 <liknus> .fas kaio
13:12:33 <zodbot> liknus: kaio 'Caius Chance' <me@kaio.net>
13:12:44 <liknus> #topic Agenda
13:12:47 <liknus> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAmSCo_agenda
13:12:51 <liknus> So we start right away
13:12:59 <liknus> #topic FAQ
13:13:05 <liknus> Igor announced the FAQ on the list
13:13:09 <liknus> so we are ok with that
13:13:24 <liknus> #action liknus removes FAQ item from actions
13:13:38 <liknus> #topic Monthly report
13:13:46 <liknus> The report is ready (also in pdf
13:13:47 <liknus> )
13:14:02 * kaio has sth to discuss. will bring up after planned agenda (/me didnt find the page to put into agenda)
13:14:10 <liknus> If we do not have any other additions then Igor should publish it
13:14:18 <gbraad-china> I noticed kital would take care of the regional topic?
13:14:22 <lcafiero> +1
13:14:31 <liknus> I took care of EMEA
13:14:38 <liknus> (no other news except of mentoring)
13:15:00 <liknus> #action liknus signals Igor we re ready for announcement of monthly report
13:15:01 <gbraad-china> I still have to add some (excuses for this)
13:15:06 <liknus> oh
13:15:12 <liknus> #undo
13:15:12 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Action object at 0x2b025b6a0850>
13:15:21 <liknus> #action liknus signals Igor we re ready for announcement of monthly report after gbraad-china adds sth
13:15:23 <liknus> ok?
13:15:24 <gbraad-china> mentoring for APAC has not been added
13:15:46 <liknus> gbraad-china, make sure it is ready for you region so we can publish it right away
13:15:49 <liknus> ok?
13:15:50 <kaio> gbraad-china☺ I may add sth. How about we sort out on it?
13:16:18 <gbraad-china> ok, lets do so by email and before Tuesday?
13:17:06 <liknus> #topic Events page
13:17:14 <kaio> gbraad☺ sure
13:17:30 <liknus> So on Events we are still waiting for the upgrade of our mediawiki
13:17:46 <gbraad-china> any idea when this will be done?
13:17:49 <liknus> and this will start after FUDCon as ianweller and Smooge told me (possibly)
13:18:02 * gbraad-china corrects and removes question
13:18:21 <lcafiero> that's true.
13:18:26 <liknus> I am nudging and pinging continously :)
13:18:35 <liknus> moving on?
13:18:43 <gbraad-china> +
13:18:49 <lcafiero> Bear in mind that not much will get done before monday. everyone here is focusing on fudcon
13:19:00 <liknus> #topic Schedule
13:19:14 <liknus> Robyn will push it after FUDCon (totally logical)
13:19:23 <gbraad-china> lcafiero will also email you about sth related to famsco and harish
13:19:26 <liknus> #topic Ambassadors SOPs
13:19:36 <lcafiero> +1
13:19:44 <liknus> gbraad-china, anything we need to know?
13:20:09 <gbraad-china> general update, but I can post it on the mailinglist
13:20:27 <liknus> plz do so gbraad-china :)
13:20:34 <kaio> +
13:20:37 <liknus> So on SOPs we created a new one :
13:20:37 <gbraad-china> consider it done
13:20:48 <liknus> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ASOP:MTNG
13:21:05 <kaio> I am going to FAD tomorrow and not much will be done also.
13:21:30 <liknus> I hope this will be useful for people willing to chair a meeting
13:21:41 <liknus> please feel free to add more info on that
13:21:42 * gbraad-china is looking at tje link
13:22:04 <liknus> next SOP that I will focus is : Requesting material
13:22:23 <liknus> and another one is : Participating in an Event SOP
13:22:58 <liknus> or it should be : Hosting an Event ?
13:23:16 <gbraad-china> Requesting material is in my opinion on most new ambassadors mind
13:23:16 <liknus> no no... Participating is better
13:23:42 <gbraad-china> +1 sounds more general
13:23:45 <liknus> gbraad-china, "no no" was not for your comment :)
13:23:58 <lcafiero> +1 to gbraad
13:24:10 <lcafiero> heh.
13:24:15 <liknus> yeap besides hosting can be FAD or FUDCon... and those will be different SOPs :P
13:24:17 * lcafiero understood thta
13:24:21 <lcafiero> that
13:24:42 <liknus> (and Release Party SOP will be one)
13:24:46 <gbraad-china> also, participating could also be the helping part
13:25:11 <liknus> I believe that after the completion of Participating I should announce SOP on Ambassadors
13:25:14 <liknus> sounds good?
13:25:20 <gbraad-china> +1
13:25:32 <lcafiero> +1
13:25:44 <liknus> (we will constantly change things and add new, but we need to deliver a working example of 3-4 SOPs )
13:25:45 <liknus> ok nice
13:26:06 * kaio is interested on what will be in the "requesting material" part.
13:26:36 * gbraad-china expects to get in touch with established/local ambassadors or regional mentor
13:26:41 <liknus> kaio, it will be a case-selection on which region you are and general guidelines about asking and reimbeurshments
13:26:43 <gbraad-china> would be part of it
13:27:12 <kaio> liknus☺ I have just exp the process of requesting materials. And may have some comments on that.
13:27:37 <liknus> kaio, I will start the thread in the mailing list
13:27:44 <kaio> fyi 700pcs of f14 live cd on my hand now
13:27:45 <liknus> while creating the SOP
13:27:47 <lcafiero> It may differ from region to region, too
13:27:49 <lcafiero> but it's something that's necessary, because there's no set rule(s)
13:28:03 <gbraad-china> agree with lcafiero
13:28:04 <kaio> need to figure out an efficient way to logistics
13:28:13 <liknus> lcafiero, that why a single page (SOP) with cases per region will be handy :)
13:28:15 <liknus> +1 for me
13:28:19 <gbraad-china> in more established regions the process is easier
13:28:21 <kaio> ++
13:28:30 <gbraad-china> also more well-defined due to the age
13:28:53 <lcafiero> good idea, liknus +1
13:29:03 <liknus> I believe that the completion of this page (with shipping processes) will be done after FUDCon and FOSDEM as Max will meet with NA and EMEA Ambassadors to sort this out
13:29:27 <gbraad-china> what about APAC ambassadors?
13:29:30 <liknus> LATAM and APAC are welcome to the discussion too... but basically solutions will come from MAx
13:29:37 <gbraad-china> seems we need to get Max here ;-).
13:29:43 <liknus> gbraad-china, absolutely
13:29:44 <liknus> :)
13:29:56 <liknus> but on APAC you will have Harish to sort those things out
13:30:02 <liknus> Am I right?
13:30:04 <gbraad-china> Harish will catch up with Max about this
13:30:26 <liknus> ok nice
13:30:43 <liknus> hopefully over the next month we will have established procedures
13:30:44 <gbraad-china> I still have an invitation for a conference call with with harish, max and kaio
13:31:05 <liknus> gbraad-china, ping them :)
13:31:11 <lcafiero> we are talking about budget items at fudcon -- harish, max and I are here
13:31:34 <gbraad-china> that is what the email to the list will be about
13:31:36 <liknus> lcafiero, please update us as soon as possible
13:31:46 <kaio> gbraad-china☺ oh
13:31:51 <lcafiero> +1
13:31:53 <gbraad-china> busy days due to the chinese new year
13:31:53 <liknus> Ok I believe we are done on SOPs
13:31:59 <gbraad-china> :-s
13:32:11 <gbraad-china> liknus +
13:32:34 <liknus> #topic Consolidation of Meeting pages
13:32:48 <liknus> So I sent the email with our suggestion to the meeting chairs
13:33:09 <liknus> so far APAC (David) responded and changed his pages accordingly
13:33:10 <gbraad-china> I noticed dramsey immediately took action
13:33:26 <liknus> lcafiero, have you seen the mail?
13:33:37 <gbraad-china> should old pages remain the way they are or also need to be proactively changed?
13:33:47 <liknus> No need to do so
13:33:56 <lcafiero> No, I'm still catching up after traveling yesterday.
13:33:57 <liknus> just from now on it is ok IMHO
13:33:57 <gbraad-china> the problem for this could be the linking from the mailinglists
13:34:01 * lcafiero checks
13:34:38 <liknus> gbraad-china, thats why we should do that "from now on"
13:34:56 <gbraad-china> exactly, agree with this
13:35:27 <liknus> lcafiero, basically NA all you have to do is put an "NA" on the meeting pages
13:35:32 <liknus> (like we are in EMEA)
13:35:47 <liknus> so it will be : Meeting:NA_Ambassadors_<date>
13:36:21 <lcafiero> Oh OK. That's OK
13:36:48 <liknus> lcafiero, nice thanks :)
13:37:03 <liknus> lcafiero, also please update Igor on that
13:37:11 <liknus> (you will see him today I guess)
13:37:29 <liknus> So moving on:
13:37:37 <lcafiero> Yes, I just realized he'll be here.
13:37:50 <liknus> #topic Ambassadors COI
13:38:03 <liknus> so I guess some of you read my blog post
13:38:36 <liknus> I must say that it was not 100% clear what I ment
13:38:39 <gbraad-china> busy days, so only noticed the mailinglist post and just now the blog post (agenda)
13:38:57 <liknus> so let me say that again (in short)
13:39:24 <liknus> Recently other distros are copying Ambassadors structure
13:39:49 <gbraad-china> openSUSE does, yes. MeeGo greeters is similar but not mature yet
13:39:52 <liknus> That is wonderful as it means that we are a good and sucessful structure
13:40:21 <liknus> the problem comes to the cases that we have the same target group
13:40:47 <liknus> (prominently OpenSUSE)
13:40:52 <gbraad-china> same target group is not the issue, but who do you represent at which occassion might be
13:41:21 <liknus> So the question comes  : " Is it a blocker for a person to be an Ambassador on both Projects"
13:41:21 <liknus> ?
13:41:39 <liknus> lets start by our views on that
13:41:41 <lcafiero> I outlined my answer in an e-mail.
13:41:42 <liknus> shall I start?
13:41:43 <gbraad-china> I know from experience, as I have been asked this question or informed new ambassadors about this, that this is the most common case
13:41:50 <lcafiero> Go ahead, liknus
13:42:04 <kaio> for ambassador, IMHO is a blocker
13:42:22 <lcafiero> (but I have some things to add)
13:42:26 <gbraad-china> liknus, please
13:42:29 <kaio> for non distro projects, IMHO not a blocker
13:42:58 <liknus> in short : I think it is contradictory because as projects we have different ideals and we are causing confusion to the people we are talking
13:43:19 <liknus> and this only happens on Distros, Ambassadors and same target group
13:43:27 <gbraad-china> so, my involvement in MeeGo might be a blocker... even I represent Fedora on these occassions? It depends a lot on the person and believes (or understanding of what Fedora stands for)
13:43:47 <liknus> only if all three of above are the same then there is a blocker
13:44:07 <liknus> I think that Meego has a different target group
13:44:14 <liknus> eof for me
13:44:33 <gbraad-china> lcafiero, please
13:44:37 * liknus suggests to decide first if it is actually a blocker and then on actions upon this
13:44:55 <lcafiero> I'd like to hear what kaio's objection is before I respond
13:45:06 <gbraad-china> ok, kaio. please
13:45:12 * lcafiero yields to kaio
13:46:32 <gbraad-china> kaio?
13:47:11 <liknus> lcafiero, please continue until we find kaio :)
13:48:31 <kaio> oh
13:48:55 <kaio> I went to the linux conf australia open day this afternoon
13:49:19 <kaio> I saw the people from opensuse and ubuntu. (and I as fedora people)
13:50:20 <kaio> there are two feelings I exp about if I am both a fedora and ubuntu/opensuse/debian/whatever guy
13:50:56 <kaio> "I will just feel not comfortable to promote this distro today and another distro the other day!"
13:51:30 <gbraad-china> kaio, it depends on the target audience and use case of the distro.
13:52:03 <kaio> and when someone asked "which project are you in?" I also won't feel comfy to say I am distro a and distro b people...
13:52:08 <gbraad-china> even I could suggest another distro for the field I work in... I would not be happy about it, but it can happen
13:52:14 <liknus> thats why I said "3 options meet" .... Same Target Group / Same sub-project "Ambassadors" / Both Distro
13:52:58 <kaio> I will be proud of saying I am fedora + gnome + openoffice (sub w/ anything) project contributor. But not this scenario.
13:53:54 <lcafiero> sorry, I lost my connection
13:53:58 <lcafiero> (grrr)
13:54:02 <liknus> lcafiero, updates on prive channel
13:54:06 <gbraad-china> kaio, so in this case liknus is correct about the 3 points?
13:54:08 <liknus> (I will copy paste)
13:54:34 <lcafiero> do I still have the floor?
13:54:47 <gbraad-china> lcaifero currently kaio has
13:55:12 * liknus posted the missing conversation of lcafiero to prive channel
13:55:27 <lcafiero> OK
13:55:29 <liknus> So we think that 3 points are good?
13:55:30 <kaio> that is what I think
13:56:07 <gbraad-china> kaio, I understand your concerns and motivation.
13:56:15 <kaio> it is not mandatory, but recommended not to represent more than 1 distro IMHO
13:56:38 <lcafiero> As do I.
13:56:46 <gbraad-china> lcafiero please
13:56:58 <kaio> just about the feeling of one's heart, though at the end of the day all linux is good
13:57:13 <liknus> I would go further .... and suggest that : In this case we only have conflict on that with OpenSuse.. shall we only resolve this or place a general rule?
13:57:21 <lcafiero> thanks gbraad and liknus, for the update
13:57:47 <lcafiero> I wrote a long e-mail about this and had a chance to think about it on the drive down to Tempe -- 12 hours.
13:58:30 <gbraad-china> I hope we have enough time in this meeting to hear the whole story of those 12 hours of thinking
13:58:33 <lcafiero> Clearly you can't "serve two masters" at the same time -- in effect, representing two distros at the same event.
14:00:55 <kaio> just "not recommended" would be enough?
14:01:07 <kaio> not not prohibited, but not recommended
14:01:40 <gbraad-china> lcafiero, from this statement and your earlier email I can conclude that an Ambassador can be in both groups (FAm & Suse), but have to choose for the event what he represents?
14:01:55 <gbraad-china> already pinged lcafiero, but seems no response
14:02:14 <lcafiero> sorry, my connection is the worst
14:02:19 <gbraad-china> lcafiero, from this statement and your earlier email I can conclude that an Ambassador can be in both groups (FAm & Suse), but have to choose for the event what he represents?
14:02:31 * gbraad-china repeasts the question
14:02:34 <lcafiero> Correct.
14:02:58 <gbraad-china> I have the same stance, but it does not make me feel happy.
14:03:03 <lcafiero> I think we can offer guidelines about what is expected of Fedora Ambassadors when it comes to participating in more than one program
14:03:18 <gbraad-china> 'guidelines' sounds restricting
14:03:25 <kaio> hmm
14:03:31 <lcafiero> guidelines are not the same as 'rules'
14:03:46 <lcafiero> "you should" as opposed "you must"
14:03:49 <gbraad-china> I think, my personal opinion, that we can only elaborate through the mentors what we thinj
14:03:58 <gbraad-china> s/thing/think
14:04:21 <lcafiero> I don't think this is a widespread problem, first of all.
14:04:23 <liknus> ok shall I try to sum it up?
14:04:30 <lcafiero> I think most Fedora Ambassadors are Fedora Ambassadors only.
14:04:31 <gbraad-china> "you should" still sounds like restrictive
14:05:04 <lcafiero> it's not as restrictive as "you must"
14:05:04 <lcafiero> But I think many of us are involved in more than one project.
14:05:09 <kaio> "you may"? still too directive..
14:05:12 <lcafiero> like gbraad and meego, for example.
14:05:16 <lcafiero> possibly.
14:05:17 <gbraad-china> recently I got the question from an Ambassador I mentored earlier that other ambassadors think this is not allowed (being in FAm and SUSE)
14:05:28 <lcafiero> could we discuss this further on list and bring this back next week?
14:05:35 <gbraad-china> there seems to be a lot of misconcepts about this
14:05:38 <liknus> FAmSCo is going to advise mentors and already Ambassadors that "Ambassadors should represent only one Distro per occasion"
14:05:44 <liknus> how that sounds?
14:05:50 <liknus> lcafiero, ok we can do that...
14:05:54 <lcafiero> That's OK.
14:05:55 <gbraad-china> sounds ok.
14:06:06 <kaio> like this
14:06:11 <lcafiero> We should probably talk to mentors about this first
14:06:16 <liknus> lcafiero, +1
14:06:22 <lcafiero> rather than going to the ambassadors list
14:06:25 <gbraad-china> I also mentored and found out afterwards the mentee was also in SUSE
14:06:36 <liknus> lcafiero, please initiate that on FUDCon and keep us updated
14:06:43 <lcafiero> I don't think we want to encourage people to work on other projects.
14:06:46 <liknus> then I will do the same in FOSDEM (many mentors there)
14:06:55 <lcafiero> I will talk about it at FUDCon with others to see what they say.
14:07:04 <lcafiero> kaio can do the same at LCA, no? :-)
14:07:04 <gbraad-china> since this occassion I have become more cautious and pay MORE attention to our stance of Fedora and the freedoms
14:07:15 <gbraad-china> I am sure it happens more often with newcomers
14:07:15 <liknus> ok subject halted until we have feedback from mentors
14:07:34 <liknus> above mentioned statement can be used afterwards (but still we need feedback)
14:07:35 <lcafiero> yes, let's run it by the mentors first.
14:07:35 <liknus> ok?
14:07:43 <lcafiero> +1
14:07:49 <gbraad-china> ok +1
14:07:55 <liknus> +1 from me too :P
14:08:13 <lcafiero> kaio?
14:08:14 <gbraad-china> kaio, also send an email to the APAC mentors as they do not attend LCA
14:08:15 <liknus> kaio, also get some feedback on LCA :)
14:08:21 <kaio> lcafiero☺ LCA is ended yesterday
14:08:25 <liknus> oh ok gbraad-china +1
14:08:33 <lcafiero> Oh.
14:08:43 <lcafiero> I keep forgetting it's "tomorrow" over there already :-)
14:09:01 <kaio> ++
14:09:02 <gbraad-china> APAC does not have a lot of mentors.
14:09:11 <gbraad-china> kaio, me and bbbush AFAIR
14:09:31 <kaio> gbraad-china☺ no, more than that
14:09:45 <lcafiero> gbraad, is that something that needs to be addressed?
14:09:51 <kaio> I think I saw more than just us 3.
14:10:10 <lcafiero> Is India part of APAC?
14:10:11 <gbraad-china> kaio, so please can you issue an email to the mentors for APAC?
14:10:24 <liknus> of course lcafiero
14:10:26 <kaio> gbraad-china☺ about representation?
14:10:47 <gbraad-china> how they feel about the dual-headed representation ;-)
14:10:51 <liknus> about their views on multi ambassadors
14:10:53 <liknus> yeap
14:11:14 <liknus> #action all take feedback on dual representation and we will discuss it on next meeting
14:11:16 <liknus> ok all?
14:11:34 <gbraad-china> +1
14:12:02 <liknus> moving on?
14:12:05 <lcafiero> +1, but I just had a thought, but I'll put it in an e-mail to the famsco list
14:12:17 <liknus> #topic Budget
14:12:21 <gbraad-china> lcafiero please
14:12:27 <liknus> lcafiero, please do so :)
14:12:42 <liknus> lcafiero, also ping Max (and buy him many beers) on tickets
14:13:03 <liknus> Anything else on that?
14:13:08 <liknus> or shall we end the meeting?
14:13:13 <liknus> (1 hour now)