17:00:07 <EvilBob> #startmeeting
17:00:07 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Sep  8 17:00:07 2011 UTC.  The chair is EvilBob. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:00:07 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:00:07 <EvilBob> #meetingname irc-support-sig
17:00:07 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'irc-support-sig'
17:00:07 <EvilBob> #meetingtopic IRC Support SIG Meeting
17:00:28 <EvilBob> Going to actually wait just a bit for dcr to get home from work
17:00:39 * nirik is around.
17:00:45 <EvilBob> should start about 10 after the hour
17:02:23 <EvilBob> #chair nirik dcr226
17:02:23 <zodbot> Current chairs: EvilBob dcr226 nirik
17:08:02 <EvilBob> There he is
17:08:39 <EvilBob> OK, We do have an agenda today please allow us to complete that in a timely manner and bring up additional topics in the "Open Floor" section of the meeting.
17:08:42 * dcr226 bursts through the door late
17:08:46 <dcr226> what did I do?
17:08:58 <EvilBob> Nothing yet
17:08:59 <EvilBob> #topic Week in Review
17:08:59 <EvilBob> #link http://fedora.theglaserfamily.org/ircstats/fedora-weekly.html
17:09:19 <EvilBob> Stats are back but will not be accurate until next week
17:09:36 <EvilBob> Anything for the week in review?
17:09:49 * nirik has nothing. pretty typical one.
17:09:56 <EvilBob> Agreed
17:10:00 <EvilBob> #topic Feedback Tickets
17:10:00 <EvilBob> #link https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/report/1
17:10:00 <EvilBob> 2 tickets open this week, 2 more closed by the submitter.
17:10:29 <EvilBob> https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/66 and https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/67 are from the same person
17:11:08 <EvilBob> Posted an incomplete log of the "encounter" a complete log with time stamps was attached by me
17:11:44 <dcr226> scrub the second one as crap, no idea where he got the helper list from, but opsec hasn't been active in the channel for months, possibly years
17:11:54 <EvilBob> User wanted spoon feeding and handling with silk gloves and did not get it.
17:12:21 <dcr226> well, certainly not under that nick anyhow
17:12:37 <EvilBob> The second ticket... yeah going back 3 years opsec never interacted with this user that I could find.
17:13:01 <EvilBob> In the end the user I think was cooled down on the whole thing
17:13:13 * nirik reads
17:13:36 <EvilBob> dcr226: You were there, you determined that no action was needed apparently.
17:13:48 <dcr226> yeppers
17:14:37 <nirik> perhaps we could point people to the faq more? would they take that better?
17:14:48 <EvilBob> nirik: probably
17:15:07 <EvilBob> It does not help in some cases naturally
17:15:11 <dcr226> nirik, there's a bigger, more holistic issue that I have no idea how to deal with
17:15:16 <EvilBob> but it ccan't hurt to try
17:15:18 <dcr226> the "feeding frenzy"
17:15:38 <dcr226> yeah, faq ftw
17:15:53 <nirik> yeah
17:16:00 <EvilBob> the next two tickets were filed by JoeJulian, https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/68 and https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/69
17:16:17 <EvilBob> I talked with him at length, he's a real nice guy
17:16:33 <EvilBob> Just got rubbed the wrong way and over reacted a little.
17:16:49 <nirik> yeah, sounds like he was satisified and closed his tickets.
17:16:50 <EvilBob> I think he has the potential to be a great helper in the channel
17:17:14 <dcr226> often, third-partying the issue when its hot seems to work
17:17:50 <EvilBob> I'll add a comment to the tickets and leave them closed.
17:18:04 <EvilBob> Ticket #67 FWIW we brushed over
17:18:28 <EvilBob> It is a kudos ticket but is a bit... well inconsistent
17:18:45 <EvilBob> Keep up the good work I guess is the message.
17:19:04 <EvilBob> ANything on the 4 tickets?
17:19:29 * dcr226 hasn't
17:19:43 <EvilBob> Well I see nothing
17:19:43 <dcr226> apart from "more tickets is a good thing"
17:19:44 <EvilBob> #topic Open Floor
17:19:44 <EvilBob> Does anyone have anything to add?
17:19:55 <EvilBob> dcr226: yes +1 to more tickets
17:20:08 <EvilBob> I think the wording change helped quite a bit
17:20:15 <dcr226> I guess I have something, not sure if there's an answer...
17:20:41 <EvilBob> Bring it
17:20:44 <dcr226> The "feeding frenzy" I spoke of, seems to happen when a prominent member of the sig, for one reason or another sets a user straight
17:21:00 <dcr226> there seems to be an ensuing attack from outside users, against the original supportee
17:21:15 <dcr226> I've noticed it as a patter, I just think we should be more aware is all
17:21:17 <nirik> well, this is something we have talked about in the past...
17:21:25 <nirik> we should avoid the mob. ;)
17:21:32 <dcr226> yeah, thats a better way of putting it
17:21:49 <nirik> ie, person a corrects someone, and then b, c, d, e, f all jump in and agree and the poor users actual issue is lost.
17:21:50 <EvilBob> We really can only control ourselves and attempt to redirect others
17:22:02 <dcr226> EvilBob, not really
17:22:08 <dcr226> we can control the mob I think
17:22:17 <dcr226> after all, we have the lazer guided bot ;-)
17:22:50 <dcr226> nothing wrong (imho) with telling users b through f to keep their noses out
17:22:51 <EvilBob> well we can redirect them to other topics, to shut the hell up or out of the room
17:22:56 * dcr226 nods
17:22:57 <nirik> well, usually in the past the mob has been us. ;)
17:23:03 <dcr226> nirik, not now though
17:23:08 <dcr226> fwics anyway
17:23:32 <nirik> ie, user comes in and says "I want to install this rhl kernel, how do I do that" and 20 people jump in to tell them how bad an idea that is. ;)
17:23:37 <dcr226> yep
17:24:02 <EvilBob> at times a little... back up does not hurt
17:24:04 <dcr226> the first one would be potentially an op, then the other 20 join in and attack the user. In the end, the op gets the blame (or the sig on the whole)
17:24:11 <LinuxCode> question should be, why are you waning to do that
17:24:27 <dcr226> LinuxCode, well maybe, but the issue is the mob effect thereafter I think
17:24:37 <dcr226> I think we should just be mindful of it is all
17:24:41 <EvilBob> LinuxCode: Oh that is a trigger for the user to get a ll bent out of shape
17:24:42 <LinuxCode> not be dismissive from the outright
17:24:45 <nirik> dcr226++
17:24:58 <LinuxCode> EvilBob, depends
17:24:58 <nirik> LinuxCode: sure, but one person can do that...
17:25:01 <dcr226> fedbot, did you get that? ;-)
17:25:02 <LinuxCode> most people will explain
17:25:09 <LinuxCode> nirik, naturally
17:25:28 <nirik> LinuxCode: the point is when 10 people jump in the user is left bewildered and angered.
17:25:29 <EvilBob> LinuxCode: Historically a far percentage get defensive
17:25:37 <EvilBob> s/far/fair
17:25:44 <LinuxCode> I should add, most people seeking real help with a legitimate reason wanting to do something
17:26:01 <LinuxCode> nirik, yeh
17:26:13 <LinuxCode> EvilBob, its a bit like me saying I use fedora in production
17:26:15 <LinuxCode> lol
17:26:20 <nirik> right, the old X Y problem. ;)
17:26:26 <EvilBob> LinuxCode: And how would one continue if/when the user refuses to answer?
17:26:28 <LinuxCode> theres an uproar, until people read more detail
17:26:36 <LinuxCode> EvilBob, ignore them
17:26:43 <LinuxCode> they dont want help
17:27:04 <EvilBob> LinuxCode: And the other users that continue giving bad and perhaps destructive advice?
17:27:11 <LinuxCode> but then its also about how you ask people qhy they want to do that
17:27:30 <LinuxCode> then you as support op step in and ask to cool it
17:27:36 <dcr226> I've seen it plenty of times, where (as an example) Southern_Gentlem will tell someone to RTFM (again, as an example) then 4 or 5 users will hammer the user like they're an idiot
17:27:37 <LinuxCode> tell them to be nice
17:27:43 <LinuxCode> and respectful
17:27:44 <EvilBob> "What are you actually trying to do" is the canned question most of us use
17:27:44 <dcr226> and then before you know it...SG gets a ticket
17:28:17 <dcr226> EvilBob, I don't think its for us to judge often
17:28:36 <LinuxCode> anyway
17:28:43 <LinuxCode> it isnt easy being in support
17:28:46 <dcr226> I saw a guy who wanted to roll his own kernel the other day, he got a hammering with "why, what, don't do it"....how about, he can, and wants to?
17:28:48 * LinuxCode understands that
17:29:03 <LinuxCode> dcr226, how about he has to ?
17:29:08 <LinuxCode> hehe
17:29:09 <dcr226> LinuxCode, yeah, maybe
17:29:20 <LinuxCode> my old laptop could probably do with a customized kernel
17:29:22 <EvilBob> Most annoying, you suggest someone read a short piece of documentation so TL:DR should not be an issue and then some gnat jumps in to save the world from learning anything.
17:29:23 <LinuxCode> for instance
17:29:24 <nirik> I think thats a great learning experence.
17:29:41 <dcr226> nirik, +1, that is pretty much what this guy wanted
17:29:48 <LinuxCode> nirik, that too
17:30:01 <dcr226> same as LFS is a good experience imho
17:30:10 <LinuxCode> me might breed a knowledge gap long term
17:30:12 <dcr226> EvilBob, yeah
17:30:21 <LinuxCode> if people cant do it, they wont disseminate the knowledge
17:30:29 <nirik> anyhow, I think the take away here is: watch for mobs and try and disperse them. ;)
17:30:34 <dcr226> +1
17:30:38 <EvilBob> dcr226: the problem comes in that after the custombreaks his homerolled kernel... he want YOU to support it because YOU told him how to smoke it.
17:30:46 <dcr226> ofcourse not
17:31:03 <dcr226> but its still his box, and if he wants to do it just for the experience/learning, then give him the link and let him go
17:31:20 <EvilBob> I agree with nirik's assessment
17:31:34 * dcr226 taps his watch and looks at Sonar_Gal
17:31:37 <dcr226> ;-)
17:31:40 <EvilBob> I do think that at times we need to try to protect users from themselves
17:31:45 <dcr226> +1
17:31:54 <EvilBob> We can do that through education
17:32:05 <dcr226> but if the answer is simple "I want to, because I want to"...let 'em fly
17:32:08 <EvilBob> even if that education is nothing more than a warning
17:32:11 <LinuxCode> EvilBob, sometimes people need to realise they are not always right
17:32:12 * dcr226 nods
17:32:28 <LinuxCode> if it takes them a broken kernel for instance, so be it
17:32:32 <LinuxCode> should have a spare ;-}
17:32:35 <EvilBob> LinuxCode: Some need to realize they are ALWAYS wrong
17:32:36 <EvilBob> ;)
17:32:46 * dcr226 has loads of broken kernelz
17:32:57 <LinuxCode> the more often they hit the brick wall, the more they will realise something is wrong with their attitude
17:33:04 <KolonelPanic> DOn't panic, make popcorn
17:33:28 <dcr226> if koji would download src.rpms with my patches applied...there'd be loads of dcr kernels flying around ;-)
17:33:32 <EvilBob> I was forced to ban a user this week from -social
17:33:56 * dcr226 no issues with that, far too annoying
17:33:57 <EvilBob> the user had been disruptive in #fedora for? What 2 weeks?
17:34:05 <dcr226> amongst other channels
17:34:11 <EvilBob> maybe longer, seemed like months
17:34:35 <dcr226> failure to read, failure to learn, constant requirement for us to fix his breakages
17:34:40 <EvilBob> they came to -social and posted a support questions, were kicked and banned(15minutes)
17:35:13 <LinuxCode> EvilBob, can I request support for bread recipes in #fedora-social ;-p
17:35:19 <EvilBob> This resulted in them jumping ship to ubuntu where they are very happy and have thanked me repeatedly
17:35:40 <EvilBob> LinuxCode: Yeah it's not Linux so not Fedora
17:35:46 <dcr226> LinuxCode, warm hands
17:35:50 <LinuxCode> EvilBob, at least he didnt go to windows
17:36:00 <LinuxCode> so in a way, we have to thank you too
17:36:02 <LinuxCode> hehe
17:36:08 <Southern_Gentlem> are they still sitting in -QA
17:36:14 <EvilBob> Hell you can ask for marital support/counseling
17:36:29 <EvilBob> I can tell you all about ex-wives
17:36:32 <EvilBob> ;)
17:36:35 <LinuxCode> haha
17:36:42 * LinuxCode jotts a note down
17:36:53 * dcr226 would like to self-nominate himself as marital counselor
17:37:07 <EvilBob> OK, anything else?
17:37:12 <Southern_Gentlem> little nuts
17:37:23 <EvilBob> Southern_Gentlem: I know you are kind of busy this time of day + year
17:37:28 <EvilBob> anything to add?
17:39:23 <EvilBob> Oh, I have one thing, anyone from the enduser side of things interested in helping out with some website drafts let me know. I'm going to be working with elad* on some things that we have seen in content placement and such.
17:39:39 <dcr226> LOL
17:39:43 <dcr226> a match made in heaven
17:40:14 <EvilBob> dcr226: Hey we can make it happen, we both are able to communicate so that is all the matters, the past does not.
17:40:30 <bodhi_zazen> I am starting -classroom sessions, first one next week
17:40:32 <dcr226> yeah, more power to you both...I was only kidding
17:40:38 <dcr226> bodhi_zazen, what about?
17:40:48 <nirik> bodhi_zazen: thanks again for getting that restarted.
17:40:52 <bodhi_zazen> I am starting with iptables as it is an easy topic for me
17:40:55 <EvilBob> bodhi_zazen: Oh cool, yeah let us know so we can help promote
17:41:05 <bodhi_zazen> Was going to ask you all for topics you think should be covered ?
17:41:13 <EvilBob> Dates/Times(UTC) and topics
17:41:19 <bodhi_zazen> selinux was probably going to be next ?
17:41:21 <dcr226> bodhi_zazen, make the iptables one a success
17:41:51 * dcr226 thinks its fine for bodhi_zazen to be a little spammy on the channel about the classroom....anyone else?
17:41:55 <EvilBob> bodhi_zazen: When you schedule these drop in to -ops to drop us a note
17:42:09 <nirik> sure. advertising helps
17:42:11 <EvilBob> bodhi_zazen: a reminder the day or two before would also be good
17:42:12 <bodhi_zazen> scheduled here : http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Classroom
17:42:31 <EvilBob> bodhi_zazen: Yeah... that requires us to remember to look
17:42:34 <bodhi_zazen> I was thinking of bloging - should then hit the planet ?
17:42:46 <EvilBob> bodhi_zazen: DO you remember what I said I had for breakfast?
17:42:50 <bodhi_zazen> Also, alternate times
17:42:53 <EvilBob> ;)
17:42:58 <EvilBob> I don't
17:43:06 <bodhi_zazen> no, I missed that EvilBob
17:43:20 <EvilBob> If you let us know we will do what we can
17:43:41 <EvilBob> If you count on me to check the wiki... sorry in advance that I didn't help
17:43:42 <bodhi_zazen> do you all mind if I add 2c re RTFM "complaints" in the channel ?
17:43:56 <bodhi_zazen> Will do then EvilBob
17:43:59 <EvilBob> Don't name names and go for it
17:44:10 <bodhi_zazen> I did not want to spam too soon, 1 week seems good
17:44:24 <bodhi_zazen> I support RTFM, the biggest problem with it is ...
17:44:39 <bodhi_zazen> keep in mind, if someone is having a problem, they are likely frustrated
17:44:48 <EvilBob> is... users have entitlement issues?
17:45:16 <bodhi_zazen> So if you can answer the question first, then -> RTFM it keeps them from transferring their frustration to the channel
17:45:30 <EvilBob> Sure and when they are frustrated and willing to read later, often they get the immediate satisfaction they desire
17:45:31 <bodhi_zazen> If a user is a repeat offender, then be more stern
17:46:01 <bodhi_zazen> There is no easy answer
17:46:01 <EvilBob> I handle things with RTFM first, help later.
17:46:19 <EvilBob> If they have a valid excuse I'll help them
17:46:28 <bodhi_zazen> You can not spoon feed the masses, all you can do is try to reduce frustration , of both helpers and helpees
17:47:02 <dcr226> jeez my bouncer sucks
17:47:03 <EvilBob> If their excuse is "My client is on the phone and I need it right now" my answer is, "contact me for payment information."
17:47:28 <bodhi_zazen> +1, I have seen that answer from you , and it is a good one
17:47:57 * dcr226 will work for less than Bob fwiw
17:47:57 <EvilBob> I think you had good input here.
17:48:01 <EvilBob> ANything else?
17:48:14 <bodhi_zazen> It makes a difference if you can weed out those who are trying from those who are not
17:48:14 <EvilBob> dcr226: Yeah but you eat canned meat
17:48:16 * Sonar_Gal taps on her watch and says alarm company was here fixing my alarm
17:48:43 <dcr226> my bouncer is playing up...did you get my suggestion that bodhi_zazen can spam the channels on the day of his classroom?
17:48:48 <EvilBob> Sonar_Gal: Just show him your tall finger
17:48:55 <EvilBob> dcr226: yes
17:49:00 <dcr226> ok, how did that go?
17:49:09 <Sonar_Gal> EvilBob, Nope just fix my alarm
17:49:10 <EvilBob> dcr226: you can read the log after the meeting
17:49:20 <dcr226> EvilBob, TLDR, can you read it to me please?
17:49:21 * dcr226 runs
17:49:26 <EvilBob> Sonar_Gal: I was referring to dcr226
17:49:28 <EvilBob> ;)
17:49:31 <dcr226> lol
17:49:35 <Sonar_Gal> haha
17:49:42 <EvilBob> OK anything else?
17:49:47 <dcr226> nah
17:49:52 <dcr226> #idea bacon
17:50:09 <EvilBob> #endmeeting