13:23:03 <igorps> #startmeeting famsco
13:23:03 <zodbot> Meeting started Sat Oct  8 13:23:03 2011 UTC.  The chair is igorps. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
13:23:03 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
13:23:10 <kaio> .fas kaio
13:23:11 <zodbot> kaio: kaio 'Caius Chance (かいお)' <me@kaio.net>
13:23:14 <igorps> #topic Roll Call
13:23:19 <igorps> .fas igorps
13:23:20 <zodbot> igorps: igor 'Igor Pires Soares' <igor@projetofedora.org>
13:23:22 <gbraad> .fas gbraad
13:23:24 <yn1v> .fas yn1v
13:23:24 <zodbot> gbraad: gbraad 'Gerard Braad (吉拉德)' <fedora@gbraad.nl>
13:23:28 <zodbot> yn1v: yn1v 'Neville A. Cross' <neville@taygon.com>
13:23:47 <igorps> Today's agenda is here:
13:23:49 <igorps> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAmSCo_agenda
13:23:59 <gbraad> .fas kaio
13:24:00 <zodbot> gbraad: kaio 'Caius Chance (かいお)' <me@kaio.net>
13:24:30 <igorps> #topic Chinese domain
13:24:44 <igorps> gbraad, kaio any news about that?
13:25:05 <gbraad> this has been granted. kaio has more details
13:25:39 <igorps> wow. glad to know!
13:26:06 <kaio> gbraad, cn is granted
13:26:11 <kaio> zh will be pointed to cn
13:26:38 <kaio> zht or sth elase will be used to cover tw, hk and all chinese traditional area
13:26:48 <igorps> sounds a good solution to me
13:26:50 <kaio> no further tech details yet
13:26:58 <kaio> need to chase up
13:27:23 <gbraad> we are dealing with this
13:27:25 <gbraad> :-)
13:27:35 <igorps> kaio, ok, please keep us informed when you have more details
13:27:49 <kaio> the web services from community will be handled along the progress
13:27:51 <yn1v> good to know that is moving forward, at least one step forward
13:28:12 <kaio> such as blog, forum/bbs, planet, microblog/twitter/weibo/blah.
13:28:34 <gbraad> weibo is now shared with Tommy (lovenemesis)
13:28:52 <kaio> gbraad, got that news
13:28:54 <igorps> Do you guys know who will pay for the hosting services?
13:29:12 <gbraad> currently paid by the community members
13:29:15 <kaio> I personally hope fedora can support.
13:29:50 <igorps> Make sure that the people responsible for that are well defined
13:29:58 <gbraad> I once asked to have community hosting from Fedora, however infra is already overloaded
13:30:03 <igorps> in order to avoid future problems
13:30:14 <kaio> ++
13:30:18 <gbraad> igorps: we are aware of this issue and still looking for a good solution
13:30:21 <gbraad> +1
13:30:42 <igorps> gbraad, good to know
13:30:51 <kaio> btw, the ownership of #fedora-{zh,tw,cn,hk} should be back to infra.
13:31:20 <igorps> kaio, really nice!
13:31:51 <gbraad> anything else to add?
13:31:52 <igorps> kaio, the channels will be integrated or will continue separated?
13:32:00 <gbraad> combined i presume
13:32:14 <gbraad> for the moment the community is too small to split
13:32:28 <kaio> dont mind someone who take responsibilities, but need it not over-centralized in admin
13:33:01 <kaio> its almost impossible to OP an user w/o the founder of a channel online
13:33:25 <igorps> IMHO combine them is the best approach. We did something similar in LATAM.
13:33:34 <yn1v> +1
13:33:36 <gbraad> igorps: +1 I also believe so
13:34:04 <kaio> similarly, currently admin of forum/bbs, blog, planet are not easy/effective.
13:34:33 <gbraad> who owns LATAM's infra?
13:35:05 <igorps> kaio, I believe it will take some time now for you guys to figure it all out
13:35:11 <kaio> need to be sorted out, otherwise things wont move
13:35:39 <kaio> igorps, will discuss more w/ gbraad and the community
13:36:07 <igorps> gbraad, most infra services are paid by local RH now
13:36:24 <gbraad> and who takes care of support?
13:37:15 <igorps> gbraad, this was part of the work of our former community manager
13:37:41 <igorps> unfortunately he is not working for RH anymore
13:37:56 <gbraad> Paul also wanted the same for China with me and kaio
13:38:06 <gbraad> however, we were too young a community
13:38:20 <gbraad> (you mean spevack)
13:39:11 <kaio> I feel difficult to serve the infra services.
13:39:23 <igorps> we set all this when the LATAM community was young too
13:39:32 <igorps> so I believe it is possible
13:39:48 <gbraad> ok, let's discuss this later
13:40:00 <gbraad> interesting to drop this on the famsco list
13:40:08 <igorps> but it started with community members paying for it
13:40:14 <igorps> gbraad ok
13:40:16 <gbraad> can we move on?
13:40:18 <igorps> let's move on
13:40:25 <kaio> ++
13:41:05 <igorps> I will leave the FUDCon discussion to the end of the meeting
13:41:17 <igorps> #topic Tickets
13:41:34 <igorps> any tickets, folks?
13:41:40 <gbraad> 222
13:41:48 <igorps> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/222
13:41:57 <gbraad> thanks
13:42:21 <igorps> gbraad, are you considering PayPal taxes on the amount you have requested?
13:42:37 <gbraad> haven't done so
13:42:50 <gbraad> it is a budget request for FAD China
13:43:36 <igorps> At least for the transactions that yn1v has been making to LATAM PayPal is taxing them in about 7,5%
13:44:00 <gbraad> wow! that is quite a lot
13:44:39 <gbraad> does anyone see problems with it?
13:44:51 <igorps> So it's good to check that out before transferring the money
13:45:03 <igorps> gbraad, not at all
13:45:23 <igorps> +1
13:45:36 <igorps> kaio, yn1v?
13:45:43 <kaio> its important to make sure how much will arrive after-fee
13:46:22 <yn1v> yes, but sometimes you have to try to find out how much will be moving the money
13:46:24 <kaio> no one wants to see a reimbursement under the expense amount
13:46:31 <gbraad> I do not mind a little skew in the amount, as I already need to pay it in CNY
13:47:03 <kaio> for china as long as gbraad can be the helper things are easier
13:47:19 <yn1v> It also depends on how much will be as an absolute value.
13:47:37 <kaio> and there should be resolved for other apac countries
13:47:45 <igorps> gbraad, I suggest you to do this one as a experience, and figure out how things work on PayPal in China
13:48:05 <gbraad> paypal in China does not exist (it does, but is a different system)
13:48:08 <kaio> also the banks in china will charge the second time seems
13:48:19 <gbraad> harish and I have done it before, and so did Tommy
13:49:01 <yn1v> I think we should focus on the request
13:49:02 <gbraad> I just make sure I can pay for it from my own account (either bank or alipay) and make sure of the conversion on the day rate
13:49:02 <igorps> gbraad, so I believe there's no problem then
13:49:45 <gbraad> ok, thanks
13:49:46 <yn1v> there is only budget for food and meeting room.
13:50:06 <igorps> +1
13:50:10 <gbraad> other costs have been filed by Tommy as separate tickets
13:50:13 <yn1v> there will be no extras? like renting equipment?
13:50:24 <gbraad> travel seems to be only one person at the moment
13:50:37 <gbraad> projector and such is provided with the room rent
13:51:17 <igorps> gbraad, good
13:51:41 <igorps> any objections?
13:51:48 <yn1v> I don't see problems here.
13:51:50 <yn1v> +1
13:51:56 <igorps> +1
13:52:20 <gbraad> thanks
13:52:35 <igorps> I have one ticket as well
13:52:47 <igorps> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/220
13:53:15 <igorps> Sorry for the formatting. I messed the links up.
13:54:11 <igorps> The event is will start on Oct. 19
13:54:23 <igorps> So we need to take action on this
13:55:41 <gbraad> trying to open it... slow internet
13:55:58 <gbraad> ah, travel costs
13:56:19 <igorps> liknus posted about it on mailing list
13:57:14 <igorps> yn1v, any thoughts on that?
13:57:18 <yn1v> This is something that is over 1K
13:57:45 <yn1v> I know that is one of the biggest events on south america
13:58:08 <yn1v> I would like to support this.
13:58:09 <gbraad> what is your opinion on this?
13:58:38 <igorps> unfortunately Valentin hit problems with his documentation
13:58:42 <gbraad> tickets have not been booked, so the prices can still be different
13:59:07 <gbraad> I do not see a problem with granting this
13:59:21 <yn1v> but we have looked for confirmation from budget before actually doing decisions for over 1K
13:59:23 <igorps> so the costs rised from ~700 to ~1000 since he will need to travel by plane now
14:00:07 <igorps> yn1v, most important thing now is to purchase the airfare since the event is a few days away
14:00:13 <yn1v> I am fully +1 on this
14:00:31 <igorps> hotel expenses we can work with reimbursement next month, no problem
14:01:51 <igorps> It will cheaper to buy the airfare directly, so we bypass reimbursement with PayPal
14:02:01 <gbraad> +1
14:02:04 <yn1v> let's do that... work with airfare
14:02:16 <yn1v> and later work with hotel payment
14:02:41 <igorps> yn1v, ok. I will contact you off meeting so we can work on this
14:02:59 <yn1v> I hope that I can manage to actually buy the ticket as last time we run into a lot a problems
14:03:25 <igorps> #agreed Budget for FAD China approved (Ticket #222)
14:03:35 <yn1v> Yes, let work out this after meeting
14:03:53 <igorps> #agreed  Budget for Latinoware approved (Ticket #220)
14:04:20 <igorps> ok, let's move on
14:04:45 <igorps> yn1v, anything you would like to add to your topics?
14:04:47 <kaio> ++
14:05:49 <yn1v> my topics are closed, but not erased from agenda
14:06:22 <igorps> This topic has been on the agenda for a while now:
14:06:32 <igorps> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Jsimon/draft_community_credit_card_process
14:07:55 <igorps> yn1v, since you are one of holders of the community credit cards, could you please take a look at it?
14:08:01 <yn1v> every time that I see that flow chart I get dizzy :( to many arrows
14:08:53 <igorps> yn1v, hehe, me too, we might suggest a simplification
14:09:15 <yn1v> I think that there are different ways of doing this as regional/historical facts
14:09:57 <yn1v> Emea has a strong structure for dealing with acquisitions and everything work there
14:10:33 <igorps> The process itself seems clear to me, but I'm not sure if the flow chart helps other ambassadors to understand
14:10:33 <yn1v> but latam and emea has a lot of things to figure out to get something done
14:11:34 <yn1v> I am not sure they need to understand. I think it is great to have transparency, but some people need direction to do their part
14:12:10 <igorps> I think this is a good topic to an open meeting or a Town Hall
14:12:11 <yn1v> kind of making two sections, what an ambassador has to do, and what an card holder has to do.
14:12:44 <gbraad> yn1v: +1
14:12:49 <kaio> ++
14:13:10 <igorps> #topic Community credit card process review
14:13:20 <yn1v> and I think what makes more complex is that you need multiple ways to deal with regional obstacles
14:13:36 <igorps> #idea Make two sections on the wiki page, what an ambassador has to do, and what an card holder has to do.
14:15:11 <yn1v> or... probably just leave out ambassadors... this is something for transparency and use of people involved in budget ... and make sure in ambassadors page you have instructions for making request
14:15:37 <gbraad> yn1v: this is a better approach
14:15:43 <gbraad> the ambassador part is general for all
14:16:02 <gbraad> and also prevent unnecessary duplication
14:16:14 <igorps> yn1v, for sure, most important thing is that we have all the information to take good decisions
14:16:15 <yn1v> two ideas, at least one is worth :)
14:16:49 <igorps> two good ideas!
14:16:53 <yn1v> I see value in transparency, that anybody can be accountable
14:17:30 <igorps> #idea Make sure in ambassadors page you have instructions for making requests
14:17:57 <yn1v> That anybody can know what I am doing with that credit card... and most important that anybody can take over this function
14:18:15 <yn1v> at this moment it has been a learning process.
14:18:22 <igorps> I'm sure that Joerg will find these ideas interesting
14:19:16 <igorps> yn1v, anything else you would like to add?
14:20:08 <yn1v> I am still afraid that I am doing things as they came out, I am not sure how this fits on the general budget to avoid me (or other card holder) overspending the budget
14:21:20 <gbraad> the budget should still be supervised by the regional manager, for apac this would be Harish.
14:21:25 <yn1v> probably it is my own fault for not be more pushy on asking questions.
14:21:31 <gbraad> I expect you are responsible for this
14:21:53 <igorps> yn1v, this is something that we really need to sort out. I generally use the community architecture page to see how much we have spent.
14:21:55 <gbraad> you need to provide this information
14:22:57 <igorps> I'll keep this in the meeting agenda, since it need further discussion
14:22:59 <yn1v> igorps, can you post a link for future reference on the budget page
14:23:28 <yn1v> budget/architecture page
14:23:57 <igorps> yn1v, a link pointing to what page?
14:24:31 <yn1v> the page of architecture where you check how much has been spent
14:25:21 <igorps> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Community_Architecture_expenses
14:25:29 <yn1v> thanks
14:25:57 <igorps> One thing that we need to keep in mind is that the budget is per fiscal year
14:26:15 <igorps> FAmSCo elections are before the end of fiscal year
14:26:47 <igorps> That basically means that we must not spend the whole money on our term
14:27:31 <yn1v> okey
14:27:42 <gbraad> okay
14:28:02 <kaio> ok
14:28:13 <gbraad> anything else?
14:28:16 <igorps> should we postpone the FUDCon LATAM recommendation for next meeting or you guys would like to do it now?
14:28:27 <gbraad> next meeting
14:28:42 <yn1v> I can go 10 or 15 more minutes
14:28:43 <igorps> unfortunately the bidders did not show up
14:28:48 <gbraad> have not prepared for this
14:29:05 <gbraad> next meeting, with a good announcement and bidders
14:29:41 <yn1v> #action yn1v to send mails inviting fudcon latam bidders for next meeting
14:29:51 <igorps> I'll leave the links on the minutes so you guys can prepare:
14:29:58 <igorps> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FUDCon:Bid_for_Peru_2012
14:29:59 <gbraad> +1
14:30:01 <yn1v> great
14:30:08 <igorps> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FUDCon:Bid_for_Venezuela_2012
14:30:28 <igorps> anything else, folks?
14:30:39 <gbraad> nope
14:31:10 <igorps> ending the meeting in 1 minute
14:32:13 <igorps> #endmeeting