17:00:10 <nirik> #startmeeting IRC Support SIG (2011-12-01)
17:00:10 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Dec  1 17:00:10 2011 UTC.  The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:00:10 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:00:10 <nirik> #meetingname irc-support-sig
17:00:10 <nirik> #topic init process
17:00:10 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'irc-support-sig'
17:00:23 <nirik> who all is around for a irc support sig meeting?
17:01:24 * nirik listens to the crickets.
17:01:52 * nirik runs to get another cup of coffee. back in a min.
17:02:58 * jsmith is here
17:03:17 * dcr226 flicks wads of paper at jsmith from the back of the room
17:03:29 * EvilBob 
17:03:55 * Southern_Gentlem 
17:03:59 * Sonar_Gal sneaks in
17:05:02 * Sonar_Gal passes the platter of bacon around the room
17:05:39 * nirik is back.
17:05:43 <nirik> ok, shall we get started?
17:05:49 <Southern_Gentlem> yep
17:05:50 <nirik> #topic Week in review
17:05:51 <nirik> http://fedora.theglaserfamily.org/ircstats/fedora-weekly.html
17:06:06 <nirik> thanks to Sonar_Guy getting the stats back up and working. ;)
17:06:26 <nirik> a pretty busy week it seemed, lots of people talking.
17:07:01 <nirik> anything folks want to point out from the previous week?
17:07:19 * Sonar_Guy 
17:07:22 <Southern_Gentlem> just the normal spammers
17:07:37 <EvilBob> and scammers
17:07:50 <dcr226> and hammers?
17:07:52 <nirik> yeah.
17:08:03 * nirik breaks out the hammer pants.
17:08:08 <dcr226> hahaha
17:08:12 <jsmith> I was a bit of bad treatment one day...
17:08:24 * jsmith goes looking through his logs
17:08:31 <nirik> jsmith: hum?
17:08:51 <jsmith> nirik: On the 26th, there were a number of instances where folks weren't excellent to each other
17:09:18 <nirik> ah bummer. ;( Do we have tickets on those? or should we discuss them in general now?
17:09:18 <jsmith> nirik: I heard complaints from both the person who felt he was being treated poorly, as well as a couple of other people in the channel
17:09:32 <jsmith> I asked the person in question to open a ticket if they felt they were being mistreated
17:09:37 <Southern_Gentlem> jsmith,  and it was -social not #fedora correct
17:09:38 <jsmith> I haven't followed up to see if a ticket was opened
17:09:54 <jsmith> Yeah, I'm fairly sure it was in -social
17:10:24 <nirik> ah, ok.
17:10:28 * nirik was looking in the wrong log.
17:10:44 <Southern_Gentlem> nirik,  lam h
17:10:53 <jsmith> I was trying to avoid the computer at the time, so I wasn't really paying attention, and only looked later after I saw the complaints
17:10:58 <nirik> ah yes, that was poor all aroung.
17:11:09 <blloyd> I'm curious: most channels mark indiividuals like nirik with either Ops or Voice, but not the Fedora channel.  how come?
17:11:28 <nirik> blloyd: freenode actually recommends against doing that...
17:11:49 <Southern_Gentlem> blloyd,  we try to follow freenode recomendation on that
17:12:22 <blloyd> ok, missed that.  Can you point to the rec, because I have missed it (and thus am not in compliance with it, nor are several others I know).
17:12:35 <dcr226> jsmith, so you get folks /msg you in relation to irc issues?
17:12:43 <nirik> jsmith: there is a ticket on that... shall we discuss it when we get to it in tickets?
17:12:44 <jsmith> dcr226: All the time
17:12:45 <EvilBob> http://freenode.net/
17:13:03 <nirik> blloyd: http://freenode.net/channel_guidelines.shtml and the 'don't keep operator privs'
17:13:10 <jsmith> dcr226: I'd say a good 15 to 20 percent of my time gets eaten up in dealing with personality conflicts
17:13:22 * dcr226 passes jsmith umode +g
17:13:27 <blloyd> will take that offline.  Will reread thanks.  Back to real topics.
17:13:39 <nirik> blloyd: no worries. thanks for asking about it.
17:14:07 <nirik> ok, on to tickets?
17:14:21 <jsmith> Sure...
17:14:24 <nirik> #topic Tickets
17:14:25 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/report/1
17:14:29 <dcr226> jsmith, surely you are too busy to mess about with that stuff...I'd guess people see your nick in the channel and think "I'm tellin teacher"..I'd just point them straight at the trac ;-)
17:14:45 <nirik> lets do them in numeric order.
17:14:57 <nirik> .title https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/83
17:15:00 <zodbot> nirik: #83 (Kudos for EvilBob!) - irc-support-sig - Trac
17:15:09 * EvilBob ;)
17:15:26 <nirik> kudos for EvilBob figuring out a module issue.
17:15:33 <EvilBob> Was a quick and easy
17:15:49 <nirik> .title https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/84
17:15:49 <EvilBob> User knew what they wanted, was willing to follow clear directions
17:15:49 <zodbot> nirik: #84 (Thanks to EvilBob for support and humor.) - irc-support-sig - Trac
17:16:01 <nirik> another kudo, although less specific. ;)
17:16:20 <nirik> .title https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/85
17:16:21 <zodbot> nirik: #85 (bodhi_zazen was very patient and helpful today.) - irc-support-sig - Trac
17:16:33 <nirik> kudo for bodhi_zazen
17:16:53 <nirik> .title https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/86
17:16:54 <zodbot> nirik: #86 (Great assistance received on the channel!) - irc-support-sig - Trac
17:16:56 <nirik> kudo for dcr226
17:17:01 <EvilBob> 84 was a response to another user commenting on the stuffiness of the channel in the past
17:17:16 * Khaytsus 
17:17:32 <nirik> .title https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/87
17:17:34 <zodbot> nirik: #87 (Comments on certain users) - irc-support-sig - Trac
17:17:38 <nirik> this is a neutral ticket.
17:18:00 <nirik> I asked some questions/added some comments, but got no reply.
17:18:01 <bodhi_zazen> thanks nirik
17:18:07 <EvilBob> It's a bullshit ticket
17:18:44 <Khaytsus> Gnome Shell works with dual monitors?  Didn't know that ;)
17:18:50 <EvilBob> User is part of a clique with an agenda, I missed the relationship and fell for their crap
17:19:11 <jsmith> Khaytsus: It does
17:19:20 <Khaytsus> jsmith: New to >3.0?
17:19:29 <Khaytsus> I seem to recall some problems there previously
17:19:31 <nirik> I think we can learn from this: we need to be better about pointing people to other support resources (ie, if someone asks about something no one knows about, point them to lists/etc)
17:19:43 <jsmith> Khaytsus: It's worked for me on dual-monitor systems since before 3.0 shipped
17:20:04 <EvilBob> The user that was propped up in the ticket never helped the reporting user in #fedora or in any other channel I could find
17:20:07 <Khaytsus> k, maybe some specific environment....  or maybe third party drivers..  Anyway :)
17:20:24 <nirik> anyhow, I'm for closing this, since they didn't reply in 2 weeks.
17:20:35 <jsmith> EvilBob: Do you have anything to back up your assertions that this was a "propped up user" or part of SILO?
17:20:36 <EvilBob> It was clearly a frame job
17:20:50 <Khaytsus> EvilBob: Helped him find the #fedora channel to troll?
17:21:23 <EvilBob> jsmith: the user given props is part of that clique
17:21:30 <nirik> jsmith: they mentioned that another user was helpfull and always provided them answers, but that user is part of SILO and never helped them in #fedora.
17:22:16 <jsmith> Just because a SILO user helped them doesn't necesssarily make them a prop.
17:22:26 <jsmith> I'd be careful about painting people with a broad brush.
17:22:27 <nirik> so, there is at least some connection. I don't know that it matters to me, I'd just be curious to hear their answers to my questions.
17:22:27 <EvilBob> jsmith: and the reporting user made the mistake of publicly directing another user to that group's channel a some time before this reported situation.
17:22:38 <jsmith> Anyhoo... moving on...
17:22:55 <nirik> yeah, if nothing else here, close and re-open if they provide more thoughts/info?
17:23:09 <jsmith> Sounds fair
17:23:24 <nirik> #info will close and reopen if more info/action requested.
17:23:32 <nirik> .title https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/88
17:23:33 <zodbot> nirik: #88 (User Psi-Jack helping to track an installer bug) - irc-support-sig - Trac
17:23:42 <nirik> this was a kudos to psi-jack and edgan.
17:23:55 <EvilBob> Yeah dualhead install issue
17:23:58 <blloyd> Khaytsus: gnome shell SOMETIMES works with dual monitors.  When it breaks, it is a nightmare.
17:24:13 <Khaytsus> Busy week..  I wonder if people took turkey week off and installed 16? :)
17:24:18 <EvilBob> disable/unplug the secondary display and all is good
17:24:27 <nirik> Khaytsus: we skipped last week, so this is 2 weeks of tickets. ;)
17:24:31 <EvilBob> reattach post install and profit
17:24:37 <Khaytsus> nirik: ooh, that too
17:24:47 <nirik> cool. Glad you got things sorted with him EvilBob
17:25:04 <Khaytsus> nirik: Channel has been really hopping too, not just tickets
17:25:19 <nirik> ok, on to the next one...
17:25:23 <nirik> .title https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/89
17:25:24 <zodbot> nirik: #89 (#fedora-social.log, bad words) - irc-support-sig - Trac
17:25:38 <nirik> this is the social ticket that caused the poor spiral on the 26th.
17:25:43 * Khaytsus facepalms
17:25:50 <Khaytsus> Known problem user to start with..
17:26:01 <Khaytsus> And um, the other user has been a problem for _years_
17:26:13 <Khaytsus> The spiral, however, maybe could have been avoided
17:26:41 <nirik> yeah, I added comments/thoughts to the ticket
17:26:53 <Southern_Gentlem> user A was being his normal self  then he PMs user B which tells user a to GFT
17:27:24 <Southern_Gentlem> User A takes Offense crys to jsmith  and files ticket
17:27:31 <jsmith> Again, I think this is another case of one multiple people "piling on" a user that they found annoying
17:27:33 <nirik> I think one thing that could have avoided the blow up would have been NOT asking the user about the ticket... adding comments there and waiting for reply. Trying to force them to answer when they were hot about the issue in realtime was not ideal, imho.
17:28:06 <Khaytsus> Nothing post-pm here, so whatever the "spiral" was is undocumented in this ticket
17:28:11 <nirik> also, there is a language barrier. I have trouble parsing what they are saying a lot. ;(
17:28:17 <jsmith> nirik: Agreed
17:28:18 <EvilBob> I didn't ask the user about the ticket, the ticket was after tha fact
17:28:47 <EvilBob> I was trying to deal with the live situation as it happened
17:29:24 <EvilBob> Now the <ethnic> Mafia is coming to my house to get me. Because I asked
17:29:56 <Khaytsus> EvilBob: This is when he started asking for your IRL address?  I'm still...  not quite sure what that was about
17:30:10 <EvilBob> IMO the user moving on is the best possible resolution to the situation
17:30:10 <nirik> EvilBob: yeah, I agree that their comments after that were also inapproprate, but I think they felt threatened because you were kicking/banning them for not answering you, when you could have just told them 'answer me in ticket when you cool down'
17:30:29 <EvilBob> nirik: No ticket existed
17:30:57 <EvilBob> I could not tell them to answer me in a ticket that did not exist
17:32:18 <Khaytsus> Boil the ocean over this one, or move on? :)
17:32:23 <nirik> EvilBob: Nov 26 12:52:48 <user> i have submitted a ticket for XXX then Nov 26 13:30:47 ◢✘◣     user was kicked by fedbot (Have it your way, EvilBob)
17:32:32 <nirik> there was a ticket at that time.
17:33:05 * EvilBob shrugs
17:33:25 <nirik> I think one of the advantages of the ticketing system is that it allows us to discuss out of band and hopefully when tempers have cooled.
17:33:30 <bodhi_zazen> o/ may I make a general comment on "spirals" in #fedora
17:33:40 <nirik> for example, freenode never discussed klines on irc. They require email/ticketing.
17:34:12 <nirik> bodhi_zazen: sure.
17:34:40 <bodhi_zazen> Well, we all know these people are trolling , so I hate to see abuse
17:34:47 <nirik> so where do we go here? what can we note/learn from it? any actions we can take to make it not happen again?
17:35:06 <bodhi_zazen> IMO better to ask them to move on and if necessary silence them for a while without reacting with personal insults
17:35:27 <bodhi_zazen> Sometimes it seems someone starts trolling, and then everyone jumps on the band wagon
17:36:15 <nirik> agreed. Being professional and not going down to trading insults is a very good idea.
17:36:22 <bodhi_zazen> The other day a troll was temporarily silenced, I thought that was both appropriate and very effective, without escalating the situation
17:37:00 <nirik> cool.
17:37:01 <jsmith> Sounds much more effective to me as well
17:37:03 <blloyd> A comment from a lowly user on the trolling issue: EvilBob obviously has admin privileges to kick somesome, but I have perceived him to be a troll.  Feeding the trolls can be just as bad as trolling directly, and just as harmful to the channel.
17:37:19 * nirik finds the word 'troll' to be overused.
17:37:32 <jsmith> (and perhaps under-defined)
17:37:33 <EvilBob> nirik: Yeah talk about abuse...
17:37:39 <bodhi_zazen> blloyd: that is the problem with trading insults ^^
17:37:46 <bodhi_zazen> It only makes everyone look bad
17:37:52 <blloyd> very true.
17:38:06 <bodhi_zazen> Polite requests to keep conversation on topic are better
17:38:11 <Sonar_Gal> ok can we continue with the meeting
17:38:14 <nirik> blloyd: a troll is someone who is making wild statements to get a negative reaction from other people.
17:38:36 <nirik> sure, so back to the meeting... any further thoughts on this ticket?
17:39:02 <EvilBob> Just wish lamah all the best where ever they end up
17:39:06 <jsmith> In the case of this particular ticket, it's hard to tell whether the person in question was trying to troll, or just had a language barrier
17:39:16 <jsmith> Either way, we could have handled the situation better
17:39:34 <jsmith> Let's move on, and try to do better next time
17:39:41 <EvilBob> jsmith: History with the user shows that they have been a "troll" and/or a "support vampire" for years
17:39:44 <nirik> I think it was a combo of language barrier + getting upset so that just made their language worse, which just made them more upset.
17:40:12 <jsmith> Anyhoo, that's all I have on this ticket
17:40:49 <nirik> #info close ticket pending anymore info or thoughts from reporter.
17:40:56 <nirik> .title https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/90
17:40:57 <zodbot> nirik: #90 (Friendly part of Fedora's byline could use work) - irc-support-sig - Trac
17:41:34 <nirik> this was a user who had a poor interaction in #fedora
17:41:45 <EvilBob> #fedora does not support Rawhide
17:41:54 <nirik> I think there are several ways this could have gone better.
17:42:03 <EvilBob> user did not like that answer so it devolved to " *sigh* - I see this channel is as friendly as ever"
17:42:07 <nirik> yes, so "We don't support rawhide here, please see #fedora-qa"
17:42:40 <nirik> instead of trying to get reasoning out of the user or the like.
17:43:15 * nirik notes also the digs in the ticket.
17:43:55 <nirik> so, I would suggest making sure we politely point rawhide folks to qa and not devolve into trading barbs with them.
17:44:13 <nirik> any other thoughts on this one?
17:45:01 <nirik> #info try and be more polite pointing rawhide users to #fedora-qa
17:45:21 <nirik> .ticket https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/91
17:45:21 <zodbot> nirik: Error: 'https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/91' is not a valid integer.
17:45:31 <nirik> oops.
17:45:38 <nirik> .ticket https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/91
17:45:38 <zodbot> nirik: Error: 'https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/91' is not a valid integer.
17:45:43 <nirik> weird.
17:45:56 <nirik> #91
17:45:56 <nirik> Vulgar and Derogatory Remarks in #fedora
17:46:22 <EvilBob> Get a rope, the user pissed me off and I cussed
17:46:23 <nirik> this was just added.
17:46:38 <EvilBob> Guilty as charged
17:47:05 <nirik> yeah, if you dont want to keep helping someone, do try and just politely say that... no need to get mad. ;) You could also employ /ignore.
17:47:23 <Khaytsus> beesu the recommended way to run GUI apps as root?
17:47:30 <Khaytsus> Used to be, eh, gtksudo or something?
17:47:57 <EvilBob> I did let them know I was done helping them, they continued for about a half hour complaining that I was not helping them
17:47:59 <Khaytsus> And didn't we used to have a shortcut to run Naut as root?  Or am I imaginging that.. anywho
17:48:02 <nirik> Khaytsus: I think its: a) don't. b) if you must, sudo
17:48:17 <Khaytsus> nirik: Totally agree, but sudo fails badly I believe in this case
17:48:40 * jsmith uses sudo with livecd-iso-to-disk all the time
17:48:41 <EvilBob> Khaytsus: Honestly, as I stated and is in the log, I do not use sudo
17:48:47 <nirik> EvilBob: but perhaps /ignore would have been good? then you could have not seen it and gotten mad at it? or another person could have stepped in and asked them to stop.
17:49:08 <EvilBob> I do not know if sudo's use was causing the problem
17:49:10 <Khaytsus> Hmm, was thinking sudo the way it does envs and such...  Anywho, so maybe sudo is fine
17:49:37 <EvilBob> that is why I gave very clear instructions what I needed the user to do to eliminate any extra points of failure
17:50:23 <EvilBob> [23:09:36] <EvilBob> so using "su" not "sudo"
17:50:23 <EvilBob> 28 	[23:09:55] <rhl> i just did:  sudo su - :P
17:50:23 <EvilBob> 29 	[23:10:52] <EvilBob> I'm not a sudo user, I don't know the intricacies of it
17:51:20 <nirik> yeah, I think this all went as could be expected until the end.
17:51:24 <Khaytsus> The whole sudo su thing is the dumbest use of anything ever, but anywho
17:51:34 <EvilBob> Khaytsus: +1
17:51:42 <nirik> yes, 'sudo su' is pointless. 'sudo -i' is what you want.
17:51:46 <nirik> (if you want that)
17:51:47 <Khaytsus> yeah
17:51:58 <EvilBob> Khaytsus: it was a "I'll show you I'm right" show
17:52:00 * Khaytsus types sudo tcsh a few dozen times a day
17:52:02 <nirik> so, what can we learn here, or change?
17:52:05 <jsmith> Anyhoo, this ticket isn't *really* about "sudo" vs "su" -- it's about the way the person was treated
17:52:07 <nirik> ask EvilBob to take more breaks?
17:52:13 * nirik runs
17:52:41 <jsmith> I think it's "If you're feeling like helping a user is a waste of your time, kindly let them know and then step away"
17:53:09 <jsmith> Telling them to touch themselves isn't appropriate
17:53:10 <Khaytsus> jsmith: True, was trying to figure out what the right asnwer in the future should be, given this comes up frequently, but the ticket indeed has little to do with the technical issue.
17:53:22 <EvilBob> Yeah the way the person was treated, I should have filed the ticket over the user wasting my time and being... not excellent to me...
17:53:45 * Khaytsus pokes EvilBob
17:54:16 <jsmith> I'm sorry, but I don't see how this is appropriate behavior *ever*: [23:14:47] <EvilBob> Go manually stimulate yourself
17:54:33 <jsmith> We should all be more mature than that
17:54:38 <dwebb> haha
17:54:39 <EvilBob> jsmith: It's better than telling them to go fuck themselves
17:54:46 <Khaytsus> (again)
17:54:46 <jsmith> EvilBob: Only slightly
17:54:57 <nirik> jsmith: +1
17:55:07 <jsmith> Either way, we're here to help Fedora, not act like six-year-olds
17:55:11 <EvilBob> I already stated I was wrong
17:55:15 <nirik> if you get to the point that you are mad at someone, step away.
17:55:22 <nirik> anyhow, yeah.
17:55:36 <EvilBob> <EvilBob> Get a rope, the user pissed me off and I cussed
17:55:36 <EvilBob> <EvilBob> Guilty as charged
17:55:42 <dwebb> jsmith· that's what happens when someone feels frustrated and others in power aren't backing them up, instead just continue spoonfeeding the user thinking that they're "helping"
17:56:07 <Sonar_Gal> reason I stay out of fedora now a days
17:56:09 * Khaytsus hands EvilBob the naughty hat
17:56:24 * nirik is unable to parse dwebb's statement.
17:56:35 <nirik> this has 0 to do with spoonfeeding.
17:56:38 <dwebb> if a user can't get something after 3 full explanations, they should be pretty much ignored until they get a clue.
17:56:42 <EvilBob> jsmith: "we" may be here to help Fedora, others are only around to drag us through the latrine for doing so.
17:57:12 <nirik> dwebb: you are welcome to do so. Others are welcome to try and explain it to them in another way that might work for them...
17:57:18 <nirik> there's no absolute answer here.
17:57:27 <dwebb> nirik· maybe not the specific instance, but in general that's how it goes.. more spoonfeeding than not
17:57:37 <EvilBob> nirik: there is one absolute
17:57:46 * Khaytsus gets down the Absolut
17:57:47 * nirik also finds the term spoonfeeding stupid and overused and vuage. ;)
17:57:59 <bodhi_zazen> We all get frustrated sometimes, ask for help, ignore, tell the use you do not have any further advice ?
17:58:16 <bodhi_zazen> but *try* not to 'say" something you will regret later is all
17:58:18 <nirik> any of those, and/or point them to other resources.
17:58:22 <nirik> bodhi_zazen: +1
17:58:24 <EvilBob> nirik: the one absolute is that rhl will never have another positive experience with me again. Because there will be none... at all.
17:58:28 <Khaytsus> EvilBob: Just do like me, type it up then send it in -ops instead of the channel ;)
17:58:45 <Khaytsus> It's like the old method of writing down your true feelings then tearing up the paper.  Gets it out of the system :)
17:58:46 <EvilBob> Khaytsus: Oh don't get me going there
17:59:03 <EvilBob> Khaytsus: Had to deal with that crap this week internally also
17:59:39 <dwebb> nirik· spoonfeeding (noun): giving exact commands, not teaching the user to think for themselves by showing them proper research and troubleshooting techniques so that they may help themselves and other members of the community in the future.
17:59:48 <dwebb> this is not done on large part.
17:59:53 <nirik> anyhow, on this ticket we all agree to try and be more professional when stepping away from a problem we no longer wish to help with.
18:00:11 <bodhi_zazen> nirik: perfect
18:00:34 * Khaytsus nods
18:00:40 <ElderDryas> Can I put my 2 cents worth in here on this subject?
18:00:59 <nirik> dwebb: then you (and many others) overuse the term. :)
18:01:04 <nirik> ElderDryas: sure thing.
18:01:41 <nirik> dwebb: and exact commands can sometimes be very handy for teaching if you also get them to look at output and explain or point to docs/resources as you go.
18:01:49 <ElderDryas> I'm wondering why the "powers that be" (ops or not), don't just back channel to let the person getting wound up that it's time to back off?
18:01:55 <dwebb> people are coming into a help channel for a few reasons: 1. whatever they've tried isn't providing the results they desire 2. they are there to learn by watching 3. they are there to help others learn help themselves
18:02:03 <dwebb> to name a few
18:02:17 <nirik> ElderDryas: yes, thats great if someone is active and sees things as they happen...
18:02:21 <bodhi_zazen> If you feel you are spoonfeeding, perhaps you should take a break or pass the user off, explain you are out of time, read http://foo.doc.com for details ?
18:02:34 <bodhi_zazen> Just take care not to come across as insulting
18:02:37 <dwebb> it's very frustrating watching people be led along, not taught proper research or troubleshooting techniques
18:02:39 <Khaytsus> ElderDryas: I think that's what we're trying to say here, if you're getting mad, just drop out of the convo.  :)
18:03:03 <bodhi_zazen> I know from personal experience in #apache , it is frustrating when your web server is not running and you are not grapsing the man page
18:03:11 <bodhi_zazen> sometimes you need help
18:03:59 <nirik> right, sometimes the answer is "here's how you fix it now, and here's all the docs you should read as to why and did you understand what that did and why it fixed it"
18:04:02 <Khaytsus> bodhi_zazen: apache never mysteriously fails ;)
18:04:06 <dwebb> because of my past frustrations and indiscretions even my clear and logical concerns (shared by others as well) are totally overlooked. this bullshit with khaystus is never dropped, despite private and public attempts to do so
18:04:12 * Sonar_Guy thinks the horse died from the beating here!
18:04:20 <Khaytsus> Ocean's completely boiled
18:04:25 <nirik> #info we all agree to try and be more professional when stepping away from a problem we no longer wish to help with.
18:04:31 <nirik> #topic Open Floor
18:04:38 <nirik> Anyone have anything for open floor?
18:04:44 <dwebb> haha
18:05:01 <Khaytsus> Would this be the venue to ask about respins?
18:05:10 <nirik> dwebb: file a ticket about your concerns?
18:05:19 <dwebb> yea, "sure"
18:05:28 <dwebb> let's not deal with it..
18:05:45 <Khaytsus> The /var thing has bitten a few people, I haven't looked at BZ but if that's been fixed it might be a good thing to respin for, although......  it's probably only an upgrade problem, we don't respin the Install do we.. only live..
18:05:54 <nirik> ok, I have no idea what you are talking about, but fine with me.
18:06:00 <dwebb> let's talk about ponies instead, even though all the parties are right here now in this very appropriate live forum
18:06:02 <nirik> Khaytsus: ask Southern_Gentlem
18:06:22 <nirik> dwebb: ok, bring up whatever now then, fine with me?
18:06:36 <Khaytsus> yeah, probably best..  I know in the past there's been methods to call a web-hosted anaconda or such, that might do it too.. not sure..
18:07:03 <Khaytsus> I'll have to look in that BZ.  I've seen at least 3 people with that issue in the last few weeks.
18:07:13 <dwebb> i've tried to be civil with Khaytsus in the past in private and semi-publicly in fedora-ops to drop whatever issue he has with me. it's been completely refused.
18:07:20 <Khaytsus> Of course 3 people with separate /var getting on irc..  Technical stuff.. might be the ONLY 3 with it.. but who knows
18:07:24 <dwebb> so we roil on..
18:07:53 <nirik> perhaps you could just put each other on ignore if you can't work out your conflicts?
18:08:02 <Southern_Gentlem> Khaytsus,  i am planning on releasing updated f16 livecds on 20111208
18:08:21 <dwebb> while i don't take his "go kill yourself with a 9mm" threat seriously from the other day, it's still a continuing issue
18:08:40 <blloyd> I am curious: I have seen multiple people mention it is open source, just open read the source as a way to get the information.  While it's available, I doubt every user will ever be able to do that.  Is that used as a shut up or do you actually expect all users to be programmers?
18:08:52 <Khaytsus> Southern_Gentlem: Yeah the more I thought about it, it's an upgrade problem I'm thinking of, Live's won't fix it.  I'm sure they'll fix other things though.
18:09:17 <dwebb> is that the kind of thing that is tolerated by someone who is supposed to be a mediator? not dropping issues and making those types of comments?
18:09:20 <Southern_Gentlem> /var issue in in the commonbugs
18:09:31 <Khaytsus> nirik: Already done on my end.  Someone else will have to police him in #fedora, it's the only reason I had not yet ignored his new nick.
18:09:35 <EvilBob> blloyd: The "Open Source Cop Out"
18:09:47 <Sonar_Guy> can we focus on one thing at a time, I think dwebb was up first!
18:09:52 <Khaytsus> Southern_Gentlem: Yeah, the /var issue..  I think it only affecst upgrades, as it can't find the rpm db of an existing install
18:10:12 <dwebb> Sonar_Guy· don't worry, i'm sure it'll jsut be swept under the carpet again.
18:10:42 <EvilBob> blloyd: When a programmer or other developer as done a piss job at writing the app or taking criticism they respond with "Patches Welcome"
18:10:46 <dwebb> and no /ignore is not the solution.. only a bandaid.. the behavior will continue, it'll just have a new face next time because Khaytsus isn't being addressed
18:10:52 <nirik> dwebb: If they have an issue with you, they should at least ignore you/not mediate anything with you. If they agree to that, does that "solve" this issue?
18:11:31 <dwebb> nope, it allows someone with that type of attitude to continue in a position of power
18:11:34 <dwebb> inappropriate
18:11:45 <nirik> 'type of attitude' ?
18:11:56 <EvilBob> blloyd: We see this a lot. It is basically as you describe "I'm better than you because you don't program"
18:11:58 <dwebb> i don't know what his issue is with me, my only one with him is never seeming to just "let it go"
18:12:05 <blloyd> I've seen it a lot since I started lurking here again.  I can read the source, but we are talking man months sometimes for some things.  I can't do it for everything....   Nor could anyone.
18:12:26 <blloyd> EvilBob: Start looking, there are accepted commits from me used in Fedora.
18:12:28 <dwebb> nirik· yes, that type of attitude.
18:12:34 <Khaytsus> While I clearly have opsec on ignore, and will continue to do so, I'd like to just say that if he'd quit trolling 99% of the time none of this would have ever happened.
18:12:43 <EvilBob> blloyd: Great
18:13:00 <blloyd> Doesn't mean I want to read every line of source in this creation.  :)
18:13:08 <nirik> blloyd: the other advantage is that other people can read the source and document and tell you what is means/how it works. ;)
18:13:17 <dwebb> nirik· i know you're intelligent and i also know you've probably lost all patience and any respect for anything positive i've done here. which is one reason my concerns are so easily dismissed.
18:13:41 <EvilBob> blloyd: I don't need to start looking because I don't care. I'm just explaining the phenomenon
18:13:42 <Khaytsus> It's not as if I have some inherent distaste for him or any other reason.  It's persistent, insistent trolling that's been ongoing for years.  Gets old.  And had not yet ignored him because I wanted to be able to police him, like any othe user, in #fedora.  Someone else can do that, he'll stay on ignore.
18:13:48 <Khaytsus> Until he changes nicks again I suppose.
18:14:09 <nirik> dwebb: I don't want to dismiss your concerns, but I think both you and Khaytsus are at fault, so I personally don't see any easy answer aside from both of you ignoring each other.
18:14:23 <Khaytsus> nirik: Yep, and done on my end :)
18:14:37 <dwebb> yes, "trolling" another over used term. and since day one when neither i nor Khaytsus was an op there was immediate tension.
18:14:40 <Khaytsus> I ignored him as opsec, I had not yet ignored this new nick.
18:14:44 <Khaytsus> (reasons above)
18:14:46 * Sonar_Gal misses the way the old #fedora chatroom was.  This meeting has basically turned into a joke.  I'm off
18:14:58 <EvilBob> ;)
18:15:16 <EvilBob> Sonar_Gal: they got what they wanted
18:15:21 <dwebb> nirik· it's childish that any op should "ignore" anyone
18:15:39 * nirik notes this meeting is whoever contibutes to it, sorry if the people you don't like are speaking the most.
18:15:47 <dwebb> it shows a real lack of personal responsibility and self control in my opinion
18:16:04 * nirik notes we are 15minutes over and not getting anywhere. unless someone has suggestions/actions.
18:16:07 <Khaytsus> There's cliques in every social grouping..
18:16:08 <EvilBob> Pot!
18:16:12 <EvilBob> Kettle!
18:16:15 <EvilBob> Pot!
18:16:15 <dwebb> "i'm done" can't even talk about concerns as an adult, make peace and move on.
18:16:19 <nirik> dwebb: I mentally ignore some people. My actual ignore list is 0.
18:16:36 <dwebb> yes, that's the way an op should be.
18:17:00 <Khaytsus> nirik: Have those too ;)  Mainly the ones that need policing but are annoying at the same time.  Part of the "job"
18:17:20 * nirik will end the meeting in a minute unless concrete proposals for action or the like are proposed.
18:17:38 <dwebb> as expected.
18:17:53 <dwebb> Khaytsus· doesn't want to deal with it so "moving on"
18:18:10 <EvilBob> dwebb: It's not so simple
18:18:17 <dwebb> indeed it is.
18:18:44 <dwebb> he's not interested in just burying it and wiping the slate clean with a new agreement
18:19:01 <dwebb> more just "fuck you, i'm an op!"
18:19:01 <EvilBob> Its more a fact that most of us even your friends don't want to deal with you so we move on, smile and shake our heads as we walk away.
18:19:40 <dwebb> those aren't friends.
18:20:23 <nirik> #endmeeting