14:00:37 <bcotton> #startmeeting Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings
14:00:37 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Jan 30 14:00:37 2012 UTC.  The chair is bcotton. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:00:37 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:00:46 <bcotton> #meetingname Fedora Docs
14:00:46 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_docs'
14:00:53 <bcotton> #topic Roll Call
14:01:26 * jjmcd 
14:02:02 * Sparks 
14:02:26 <suehle> hi
14:02:42 * randomuser stumbles in
14:03:58 * sgordon trips over behind randomuser
14:04:33 <bcotton> looks like i need to put a rug over those cables
14:05:09 <Sparks> bcotton: Nah, it just gets the ones that don't pay attention
14:05:23 * Sparks has cables that are shin high for just that reason
14:06:01 <bcotton> well let's get started before Sparks hurts anyone else
14:06:03 <bcotton> #topic Follow up on last week's action items
14:06:13 <bcotton> i did 50% of my items, and sparks did his
14:06:22 <Sparks> Woot!
14:06:34 <bcotton> #action bcotton to add some links, etc to  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_contribute_to_Docs
14:07:08 <bcotton> #topic Release Notes
14:07:20 <bcotton> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Release_Notes_schedule
14:07:27 <bcotton> Beats now open, take a beat, or re-take previous beat by removing * from your name at
14:07:32 <jjmcd> Still plenty of beats to be had
14:07:35 <bcotton> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Documentation_Beats
14:07:57 <bcotton> jjmcd: at what point do you start kicking doors down to find beat writers?
14:08:17 <Sparks> We have a beat for productivity?
14:08:20 <jjmcd> Pretty soon here.  A few are developers, etc.  Some will definitely show
14:08:27 <jjmcd> Others might need a reminder
14:08:33 <Sparks> is that the guy that takes the games out of Fedora?
14:09:05 <jjmcd> Well, I'm pretty confident e.g. that Haskell will be covered
14:09:18 <jjmcd> But Sci/Tech will take a little reminder
14:09:31 * Sparks thought ke4qqq was going to take the cloud beat
14:10:10 <jjmcd> I'll bug him.  I think I can count on rbergeron to do nothing
14:10:22 <Sparks> Wow
14:10:27 <sgordon> i am probably ok to pick up a few more if required, but i will leave it for now
14:10:29 <jjmcd> Not a writer, that one
14:10:30 <suehle> The beat assignment page could use some description of what's required of the beat owner--like how well they should know the area and something more infomrative about the writing involved than "essentially draft sections for the release notes document"
14:10:48 <sgordon> atm i have the security and Xorg beats
14:10:52 * Sparks thinks suehle just volunteered to add descriptions to the beats page
14:11:01 * sgordon nods
14:11:03 * suehle thinks that suehle wants that information for herself first
14:11:07 <jjmcd> suehle, there is a link at the top, but more weasel words around it might help
14:11:09 <bcotton> #action suehle  to add descriptions to the beats page
14:11:30 <jjmcd> More appealing weasel words, that is
14:11:30 <suehle> oh hey, Docs Project workflow - beat writing
14:11:31 <Sparks> We're rough in here this morning
14:11:35 <suehle> so what we're saying is suehle can't read
14:11:42 * bcotton never said that
14:11:45 <Sparks> suehle: But you can write!
14:11:54 <suehle> It turns out they ARE mutually exclusive!
14:11:54 <sgordon> i can drive a tractor
14:12:13 <sgordon> "we cant read, we cant write, but we can drive a tractor" ;D
14:12:22 <suehle> I can use thetracktor.com
14:12:40 <bcotton> ohhhhh kay, well this is a rathole i never expected
14:12:51 <Sparks> suehle: They aren't mutually exclusive.  Just take me...  oh wait.
14:12:54 <bcotton> anything else on topic, or shall we move on?
14:13:05 <Sparks> move on while you still have time
14:13:21 <bcotton> #topic Guide Status
14:13:29 <bcotton> #link http://rbergero.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-17/f-17-docs-tree-tasks.html
14:13:53 <bcotton> Sparks: you were interested in packaging docs for install. What did you discover in your testing?
14:13:55 <suehle> Hey, my FAS login worked today!
14:14:12 <Sparks> bcotton: I learned...
14:14:23 <Sparks> that Publican needs to support THREE desktop files for it to work.
14:14:41 <Sparks> #action Sparks to file an RFE on Publican to support three desktop files in Publican
14:14:50 <sgordon> yeah that is pretty bad
14:14:56 <sgordon> and was news to me too
14:15:11 <sgordon> i have an internal use case for desktop packages
14:15:16 <sgordon> so i can +1 that bug as well
14:15:30 * Sparks is used to KDE being... different... but GNOME also fits into that category
14:16:12 <Sparks> I'll be using what jjmcd does for the RNs for Pubican
14:16:18 <jjmcd> I'm surprised nobody is suggesting Cinnamon ... there is a lot of buzz about that lately
14:16:27 <Sparks> This will be important for RH with RHEL 7 anyway
14:16:37 <Sparks> jjmcd: I prefer nutmeg
14:16:54 <jjmcd> Well, I haven't tried either ;)
14:17:02 * Sparks doesn't know what he's talking about
14:17:32 <bcotton> so should we defer the docs packaging until such time as publican better supports the DEs?
14:18:04 <randomuser> bcotton, what is gained with the .desktop file?
14:18:04 <Sparks> bcotton: Well...  I might be able to shoehorn it in.
14:18:21 <Sparks> I'm not saying I can do this before F17 but I'm going to try.
14:18:25 <sgordon> what we probably need to be wary of, is that where it appears in the menus of the various DEs might change once the bug is fixed
14:18:28 <sgordon> bug/RFE
14:18:37 <bcotton> randomuser: it will be hard for a "normal" user to find it on the system
14:18:42 <jjmcd> d-p-r does all the work.  It also means that each new packaging requirement gets fixed in one place
14:19:15 <bcotton> Sparks: the other question is "is this worth our effort?" not sure i know the answer
14:19:21 <jjmcd> Sounds like maybe I'll have to finally package the packager
14:19:22 <Sparks> jjmcd: Well, it's not in one place.  Publican would be "one place"
14:19:42 <Sparks> bcotton: Don't know until we get there.
14:19:44 <jjmcd> Well, yeah.  But to make it fit in Fedora cleanly, Publican is NEVER going to do that
14:20:03 <jjmcd> Unless FESCo makes a huge change
14:20:09 <Sparks> If we package everything we have the ability to install language-appropriate docs onto the desktop.
14:20:17 <Sparks> jjmcd: Why?
14:20:39 <randomuser> Sparks, and update the package for errata, i think that's the most appealing
14:20:47 <jjmcd> Because in Fedora, things are in your selected language.  In RHEL, apparently in your installed language
14:21:06 <Sparks> jjmcd: We can do the installed thing, too
14:21:15 <Sparks> Smaller packages, less updates, etc
14:21:38 <jjmcd> Yes we can, but until we decide that Fedora no linger works in your SELECTED language ...
14:22:07 <Sparks> How many installations are multi-lingual?
14:22:22 <jjmcd> ANd I hate to think of the testing implications ... sheesh.
14:22:44 <jjmcd> Currently I just log on to test a language.  I would hate to have to reinstall the whole shebang
14:22:53 <Sparks> I really don't think it will be a big deal.  The Anaconda folks already have hooks for this.
14:22:55 <sgordon> tbh mine is multi-lingual
14:23:01 <sgordon> i switch to chinese when required
14:23:27 <Sparks> sgordon: And it wouldn't be difficult to pull down what you wanted in Chinese or whatever the other lang would be.
14:23:30 <sgordon> but yeah, RHEL does it in anaconda as well afaik
14:23:31 <jjmcd> In places like Belgium, France, Eastern Canada I think you will see plenty multi lingua;
14:23:36 <sgordon> for their release notes package
14:24:23 <jjmcd> Sparks, if you install separate packages how do you select the language you want.  Menu entries for every language?
14:24:27 <Sparks> This won't limit everything to a single language but it will free up lots of space then just pushing ALL bits to a box when 90+% won't be used, ever.
14:24:36 <jjmcd> Pretty soon that gets to be a problem
14:24:38 <Sparks> jjmcd: no
14:24:45 <jjmcd> I do, tho, agree with the space thing
14:25:07 <Sparks> jjmcd: Everything would work as it does today except the user would have to install languages that aren't installed as default.
14:25:15 <Sparks> So I have English and French...
14:25:21 <Sparks> My default is French...
14:25:25 <jjmcd> How are you going to make that work.  Have you thought through that?
14:25:32 <Sparks> I can then go and install all the en-US documentation.
14:25:55 <Sparks> When I change my language settings from French to English then the English docs are default.
14:26:09 <Sparks> RHEL does that now.
14:26:20 <randomuser> can the .desktop file cause a one-time prompt to pop up when switching languages, ie "Do you want to install system documentation for your selected language?"
14:26:21 <Sparks> You might still see both languages
14:26:33 <bcotton> it sounds like there's still a lot to figure out and the point is somewhat moot until that Publican RFE is completed
14:26:35 * LoKoMurdoK here
14:26:38 * LoKoMurdoK late
14:26:40 <sgordon> randomuser, it probably can but not sure we could/should go that far down the path just yet
14:27:01 <jjmcd> randomuser, no
14:27:05 <bcotton> can we table this topic for now and move it to #fedora-docs or the ML until we're in a position to move forward?
14:27:14 <Sparks> randomuser: We could probably do a python program to pull in additional languages but right now anaconda would pull in the default language files.
14:27:40 <jjmcd> Sparks, have you actually looked at the menu process?
14:27:48 <jjmcd> Or is this conjecture?
14:28:04 <Sparks> jjmcd: A little bit of both.
14:28:28 <Sparks> jjmcd: I haven't played on RHEL in many months but I'm recalling and since we don't have language specific files in Fedora right now...
14:28:32 <Sparks> I can't really test.
14:28:33 <jjmcd> I could imagine us doing a very very smart doc installer, but it would be a helluva lot of work
14:29:01 <Sparks> jjmcd: I don't think it would be difficult.  Pull in all fedora-*-fr-FR
14:29:05 <jjmcd> ANd I haven't seen any RPMs do stuff that fancy
14:29:25 <Sparks> That's the easy part
14:29:34 <jjmcd> No
14:29:43 <Sparks> IMO the anaconda piece, which already exists, was the hard part
14:30:00 <jjmcd> The RPM needs to know the current lang, and all the already installed langs, then has to make some edits that depend on both
14:30:12 <jjmcd> In anaconda, you can only install one lang
14:30:14 <Sparks> Why?
14:30:25 <sgordon> i dont really see why you have to do it from inside the RPM itself
14:30:31 <jjmcd> THINK ABOUT HOW THE MENU WORKS
14:30:31 <Sparks> yum will already know what's installed
14:30:45 <jjmcd> Yes, so RPM can ask yum
14:30:45 <sgordon> terminator for instance detects when i have text in my console that is in another lang and offers to install the font packages
14:30:49 <jjmcd> how does it do that
14:31:06 <Sparks> because it's smart. :)
14:31:10 <sgordon> i think you are looking at it from the wrong end
14:31:17 <sgordon> anaconda should install based on the default language
14:31:29 <sgordon> then if we wanted to the change would be in the language switcher
14:31:47 <sgordon> to say hey, you just selected french, do you want french language documentation?
14:31:50 <jjmcd> sgordon, that might be simpler
14:32:00 <Sparks> jjmcd: That's what I'm talking about
14:32:13 <sgordon> like i said before we might not want or be able to go that far straight away
14:32:29 <sgordon> but that is possibly the lowest hanging fruit way to do it
14:33:07 <randomuser> sgordon, this future mechanism might pull in RPMs for your  fonts as well
14:33:20 <jjmcd> sgordon, probably right if saving disk space is that critical
14:33:29 <sgordon> well i know for the product i did this for
14:33:39 <sgordon> deploying them all takes hundreds of megs
14:33:42 <sgordon> just for english
14:33:44 <sgordon> lol
14:34:03 <bcotton> okay, there's not much left on the agenda, but let's move on so that we can get finished. then we can debate the install issue elsewhere
14:34:11 <bcotton> #topic Outstanding BZ Ticket
14:34:14 <sgordon> (we ship documentation packages with RHEV 3.0, but not multi-lingual yet)
14:34:22 <bcotton> #link http://tinyurl.com/lbrq84
14:34:49 <bcotton> #action bcotton to start doing his job and send QA status reminders to the QA ML
14:35:08 <Sparks> .bug 785751
14:35:09 <zodbot> Sparks: Invalid Bug ID - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=785751
14:35:23 <Sparks> #link https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=785751
14:35:49 <Sparks> ^^^ RFE for Publican
14:36:11 <bcotton> thanks Sparks
14:36:23 <bcotton> anything else on open docs bugs?
14:36:32 <Sparks> rudi already said he was interested in this bug as it will affect GNOME 3
14:36:39 <Sparks> s/GNOME 3/RHEL 7
14:39:00 <bcotton> #topic Open Floor discussion not related to docs packaging
14:39:11 <Sparks> *snort*
14:40:13 <bcotton> anything to discuss this week? we already got our traditional can o' worms opened a bit early
14:40:19 <randomuser> i have an idea
14:41:02 <bcotton> randomuser: go ahead
14:41:04 <randomuser> I'm still acclimating to the workflow/process here, and have made only a little progress on the documentation guide
14:41:36 <randomuser> but every week, you guys reference, or I discover, another relevant wiki page that helps a lot
14:42:09 <randomuser> is it too much handholding to ask for if I started a mailing list thread to request sources/favorites?
14:42:54 <bcotton> randomuser: not at all. would you be willing to collect those links from an easy-to-find page? (e.g. the one i'm supposed to add links to)
14:43:08 <bcotton> the problem i've found with wikis is that it's easy for content to hide if you don't already know it's there
14:43:13 <randomuser> exactly
14:44:39 <randomuser> are you asking if i would collect links from or FOR the page?
14:44:48 <bcotton> randomuser: for, sorry
14:45:06 <randomuser> of couse
14:45:07 <bcotton> coffee < 1c still
14:45:11 <randomuser> awww
14:45:38 <randomuser> my first cup just hit guzzling temperature
14:46:16 <bcotton> #action randomuser to solicit wiki pages to put in an easy to find area
14:46:25 <randomuser> ok then
14:46:31 <bcotton> anything else for the open floor today?
14:47:24 <bcotton> last call!
14:48:26 <bcotton> #endmeeting