22:00:18 #startmeeting FAmSCo 2012-22-29 22:00:18 Meeting started Wed Feb 29 22:00:18 2012 UTC. The chair is cwickert. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 22:00:18 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 22:00:30 #meetingname FAmSCo 22:00:30 The meeting name has been set to 'famsco' 22:00:51 \o 22:01:28 #chair cwickert zoltanh721 22:01:28 Current chairs: cwickert zoltanh721 22:01:35 only two people? 22:01:38 this sucks 22:01:54 zoltanh721: are you there? 22:01:57 :( 22:02:37 * cwickert waits a little 22:02:41 chair kaio 22:02:45 #chair kaio 22:02:45 Current chairs: cwickert kaio zoltanh721 22:02:48 yes 22:02:49 sorry 22:02:56 one more please 22:02:57 .fas zoltanh721 22:02:58 zoltanh721: zoltanh721 'Hoppár Zoltán' 22:03:07 .fas izhar 22:03:08 KageSenshi: izhar 'Mohd Izhar Firdaus Ismail' 22:03:21 hold on ;) 22:03:32 did I say roll call? ;) 22:03:37 c'mon 22:03:40 :) 22:03:42 I think we know the FAmSco members 22:03:59 ok then 22:04:01 .fas cwickert 22:04:02 cwickert: cwickert 'Christoph Wickert' 22:04:08 .fas Kaio.net 22:04:09 kaio: kaio 'Caius Chance (かいお)' 22:04:26 .fas zoltanh721 22:04:27 zoltanh721: zoltanh721 'Hoppár Zoltán' 22:04:38 it doesn't look like we have a quorum 22:04:44 so we cannot make any decisions 22:04:54 nevertheless we can discuss a few things 22:05:05 in particular FUDCon APAC 22:05:16 but first lets go over the tickets at https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/report/9 22:05:54 #info herlo and yn1v sent regrets and cannot attend 22:06:14 not much we can do with the tickets I think 22:06:30 .famsco 250 22:06:30 https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/250 22:06:38 #topic Swag shipping improvements 22:06:56 not much feedback, this is why I mailed the ambassadors 22:07:15 no feedback yet there either, but I have to admit I just sent that mail an hour ago 22:07:32 zoltanh721: one thing I'd like to mention 22:07:42 you suggested a swag wrangler 22:07:44 cwickert: go on 22:07:49 yes 22:08:08 the idea is nice, ship everything from one place in one package 22:08:12 but this also causes a single point of failure 22:08:26 what if he is unresponsive and on holiday? 22:08:59 Good point 22:09:16 we need to take this into account 22:09:24 But I think this is an necessary part - and need to be improved 22:09:45 frankly speaking I see no big problems in EU 22:09:55 I mean, when was the last time you had problems? 22:10:31 Well, it would be nice to have some swag with the CD's 22:10:32 kaio_ph, KageSenshi: what about you, how does shipping work in APAC? did you have any problems? 22:11:09 cwickert, erm .. never actually asked for swag .. usually i just take whatever harish bring over for RH events .. 22:11:21 IMHO, as production and freight costs are relatively lower, APAC may be more appropriate to make locally. 22:11:57 ok, but again: who actually had a problem? 22:12:01 (Asia rather than Oceania, the latter is very expensive.) 22:12:14 I mean, I wonder why so many people are complaining in the survey 22:12:22 but in the ticket the feedback is positive 22:12:30 and everybody says it works for him 22:12:37 APAC has not worked out the most economic solutions yet. 22:13:25 kaio_: how is swag handled in APAC? can you add this to the ticket? there is no feedback from APAC yet 22:13:37 I support the idea of swag wranglers - if we found responsive ones. 22:14:20 I and gbraad have assisted the local production in China commenty and Taiwan community. 22:14:57 anything else to add? 22:15:05 The China community has done shirts, media and stickers, the Twiwan community has done posters. 22:15:14 I will add to the ticket then. 22:15:27 I don't think we need to go through this here in great detail, we should collect it in the ticket 22:15:38 and I want feedback from people who really had problems 22:15:40 cwickert: ++ 22:15:55 cwickert: +1 22:16:03 #action kaio to add info on how swag works (or not) in APAC to the ticket 22:16:11 ok, that's all I think 22:16:24 #topic Budget and reimbursement issues 22:16:29 .famsco 251 22:16:29 https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/251 22:16:44 not much new from the Red Hat side 22:17:01 except that rbergeron is still trying to clean up the mess 22:17:24 * rbergeron has a trac package that someone could review if they would like :) 22:17:46 and from my side I can say that kital and me will meet in 2 weeks face to face and work on the process or reviewing and reporting 22:17:55 rbergeron: did you make me admin already? 22:17:59 yup 22:18:04 mostly respond time 22:18:04 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=798014 22:18:09 rbergeron: where is it? 22:18:41 https://fedorahosted.org/draftbudget/ 22:18:49 #action cwickert to review https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=798014 22:19:00 still very drafty - i haven't gotten the second trac plugin reviewed yet so i haven't een able to request them to be added to infra 22:19:15 rbergeron: do you really think we need an advanced workflow? is custom status not enough= 22:19:16 ? 22:20:08 cwickert: it might be, advanced workflow lets you have different flows based on ticket type 22:20:32 but in that trac there should only be budget, right? 22:20:37 anyway, no need to discuss this 22:20:39 ie: theoretically new swag tickets might go to legal for a stamp but existing swag we've had before reorders might not 22:20:43 yeah, we can discuss offline 22:20:48 or elsewhere, not now 22:20:54 I will review the plugin 22:21:07 rbergeron: legal will have its own trac, too 22:21:08 anyway 22:21:17 #topic New FAmSco election rules 22:21:21 .famsco 255 22:21:24 https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/255 22:21:39 I think we pretty much agreed on the guidelines 22:21:50 but as we don't have a quorum, we cannot ratify them today 22:22:33 we should to this ASAP because it turns out we really need to have something to cope with the problem of inactive members and filling vacant seats 22:22:47 but on the other hand one more week is good 22:22:50 +1 22:22:58 because I want to rephrase the text to be shorter 22:23:08 I will not change the content, just the wording 22:23:28 to have the guidelines for FAmSCo, the board and FESCo as similar as possible 22:23:39 questions? 22:23:52 nope 22:23:56 #topic FUDCon bids 2012 22:24:02 .famsco 258 22:24:02 https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/258 22:24:12 ok, who is here for FUDCon? 22:24:14 \o 22:24:15 KageSenshi: ? 22:24:21 you are from where? 22:24:43 * KageSenshi Fedora Ambassador from Kuala Lumpur, representing the KL bid 22:25:32 that is ML, right? 22:25:35 Kuala Lumpur -> Malaysia 22:25:46 ok, great to have you here 22:25:48 #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FUDCon:APAC_2012_Bid_Malaysia 22:26:33 :) 22:26:36 tell me a little bit about your community: how many people are there? who is the event owner and how big is the FUDCon team? 22:27:58 #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/CountryList#Malaysia_.286.29 22:28:05 that page lists 6 ambassadors 22:28:19 lets see.. in term of active fedora ppl around.. we have around 7 active who usually around in most events .. in term of FAS, the last time i check there was around 200+ fas accounts .. 22:28:41 how do you check FAS accounts from ML? 22:28:55 there are a number of local foss communities around, which includes fedora and several other distributions 22:29:05 i checked the FAS account using a python script 22:29:11 which extract everyone's email 22:29:18 whose country=MY 22:29:34 ah, ok 22:29:52 locally there was plenty of FOSS events happened 22:29:54 ok, I am glad you have a big and active community 22:30:06 but there are other things I am concerned about 22:30:13 a few months ago the Google Devfest and Mozilla Camp was done here in KL 22:31:34 organizing team for FUDCon is around 7 .. and we're getting volunteers from some universities 22:33:54 cwickert, what are the concerns? 22:34:34 ah .. disconnected 22:34:45 #chair cwickert1 22:35:13 in case you missed this: 22:35:14 a few months ago the Google Devfest and Mozilla Camp was done here in KL 22:35:18 organizing team for FUDCon is around 7 .. and we're getting volunteers from some universities 22:35:23 cwickert, what are the concerns? 22:35:53 I am looking at things on a more international level 22:35:58 what about visa requirements? 22:36:14 ASEAN countries doesnt require visa .. 22:36:20 australia doesnt require visa neither 22:36:57 ah, nice, no visa required for Germans, too 22:37:15 cwickert: http://www.kln.gov.my/web/guest/requirement-for-foreigner 22:37:30 entering malaysia is usualyl easy except for some countries that have a history of illegal immigrants 22:37:33 +1 from colombo too ;) 22:37:45 * kaio_ used to enter MY w/o visa. 22:37:57 India, China and some email scam email country 22:38:05 are the problematic ones 22:38:10 meng: can you add that info to the bid page? 22:38:15 I mean the link 22:38:23 meng, india should be ok if you have record of previous visits 22:39:20 cwickert: its on our bid page already. even has yellow fever info 22:39:20 never actually heard of any problem for ppl from china 22:39:34 * cwickert is sorry :) 22:39:45 meng: you are from ML, too? 22:39:50 cwickert: yes 22:39:54 understood 22:40:00 ok, next thing is security 22:40:08 is this a problem in KL? 22:40:11 those from MY who are observing -> meng , MavJS , kulll :) 22:40:23 I mean, for foreigners 22:40:44 cwickert, security as in crime? 22:40:50 generally its safe 22:41:09 +1 22:41:15 but precautions in built up areas are still recommended 22:41:16 yes, as in crime 22:41:38 there are some warnings on the website of the German ministry of foreign affairs 22:41:47 but notthing really severe it looks 22:42:24 oh? 22:42:29 keep belongings secured is needed I guess 22:42:34 what are those, may I ask? 22:43:01 +1 kaio_ 22:43:14 just do not walk alone in quiet area 22:43:24 meng: mainly robbery, and there was a kidnapping of some foreigners in 2000 or 2001 22:43:52 ok, I looked at some other countries 22:44:01 and compared to them ML is fine :) 22:44:08 China is better though 22:44:09 It should be top 5 safe cities in south asia 22:44:15 alright then 22:44:20 last but not least 22:44:25 airfare 22:44:37 snatch thievery is common also, but not a worry when not using a handbag, the kidnapping thing is limited to Sabah back in those days with the Moro Islamic Liberation Front 22:44:54 ok meng, thanks for the info 22:45:03 I think ixs recently was in KL 22:45:08 ixs: true? 22:45:18 back to airfare 22:45:25 a ticket from Germany to KL is way more expensive then to Bejing 22:45:36 say 700 EUR instead of 500 22:45:55 but I'm afraid there is not much we can do about it 22:45:58 flight, for people in in southeastasia its usually cheap as theres a low cost airline covering the region 22:46:11 I can take airasia which is very cheap. 22:46:11 airasia.com 22:46:47 but the schedule is not much matching from here to KL for lowest fare 22:47:18 hmm, it looks the same for Asian cities 22:47:26 why is Bejing so much cheaper? 22:47:44 kaio_: there's Tiger Airways, and for Indonesia KLM is apparently quite cheap 22:48:00 meng, KLM is dutch :) 22:48:22 my sister flew in KLM for jakarta, its cheaper than AA 22:48:26 I will shop around. XD 22:49:14 Tokyo - Bejing: $500, Tokyo - KL $1017 22:49:43 the mileage is much more 22:49:58 SIN - Bejing $450 , SIN - KL: $36 22:50:07 clear win for KL there :) 22:50:28 from Singapore, bus is also available 22:50:31 SG is just across the border, 3 hrs drive to KL :) 22:51:00 Hong Kong - Bejing $450, Hongkong - KL $473 22:51:34 ok, there is nothing we can do about airfare 22:51:48 what about internet? 22:52:19 is there a connection that can deal with 200 people at a time? wifi? 22:52:35 dramsey: morning 22:52:40 additional info Colombo to KL(it will be around $300) in compare to china it's much higher 22:52:57 :) 22:53:16 MavJS, u remember what the bandwidth at apiit ? 22:53:50 KageSenshi: not sure. :| 22:53:56 so far in events we've ran, the wifi can handle it .. unless something screwd up 22:54:50 alright 22:55:28 ok, we cannot make a final decision 22:55:46 because we don't have a quorum 22:55:51 :( 22:55:56 but you have managed to convince me 22:56:06 I still like to look into some details 22:56:10 but the rest is fine 22:56:17 last question 22:56:30 no, 2 questions actually 22:56:41 has any of you been to a FUDCon already? 22:56:55 me 22:57:01 Pune? 22:57:03 the rest, no 22:57:05 yep pune 22:57:22 ok, so you know what a good FUDCon should be like 22:57:26 last question 22:57:43 do you think you can do the same with only 3 months time for planning? 22:58:02 and do you have the resources, I mean, time and people? 22:58:11 not sure about beating the fudpub , but the event, i believe we can .. 22:58:22 this is not a contest, it is not about winning, it is about the best for Fedora 22:58:24 the team had experience in running foss.my 2008 in 30 days 22:58:51 of course, will need all the help we can get in term of promotion 22:58:57 an event is nothing without its attendees 22:59:10 +1 22:59:18 logistics, we should be able to get it to work in 3 months planning 22:59:21 +1 23:00:10 ok, if you dedicate your time, we'll support you 23:00:26 cwickert: ++ 23:00:45 KageSenshi: I suggest you start working right after this meeting, even if we don't have a final decision yet 23:00:47 :) 23:00:51 (btw .. can i assume that we can get moving?) 23:00:55 ok cool 23:01:15 thats the thing i need :) .. 23:01:18 no more questions from my side 23:01:24 thanks for coming to our meeting 23:01:42 cwickert, +1 23:01:43 any more questions about FUDCon? 23:02:01 too bad we have no Chinese people here 23:02:25 I mean, I like their bid, but it is worth nothing without active people 23:02:47 ok, next topic 23:02:52 :D 23:02:53 #topic Ambassador Membership Request by a Candidate with a legacy 23:03:02 .famsco 262 23:03:02 https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/262 23:03:05 * KageSenshi goes to do announcements 23:03:15 KageSenshi: hold on 23:03:17 not yet 23:03:26 start planning but don't announce anything 23:03:30 cwickert, i mean, to the team :) 23:03:34 alright 23:04:01 back to the ticket 23:04:16 zoltanh721, kaio_: your thoughs? 23:04:43 cwickert: I think Chinese community is not going to propose the bid. 23:05:10 * cwickert wanted to talk about ticket 262 now 23:05:26 we don't need to make a decision on that ticket 23:05:37 I first would like to have his old mentor comment 23:06:10 and in the end it's up to the new mentor if he is willing to mentor him 23:06:58 cwickert: well, I think we need more comments to make the final decision next time 23:07:16 agree 23:07:36 #topic New trademark guidelines and their impact on the ambassadors swag production 23:07:41 .famsco 264 23:07:42 https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/264 23:07:59 nothing new, rbergeron and spot are going to meet with RH Legal tomorrow 23:08:12 and they will make sure that our questions and concerns are heard 23:09:19 #action all FAmSCo members to read https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pchestek/TMGuidelinesDraft - expecially https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pchestek/TMGuidelinesDraft#Ambassador_giveaways and add their opinion in ticket 264 23:09:33 #topic Sponsoring event attendees 23:09:38 .famsco 265 23:09:38 https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/265 23:09:49 I don't know what to say to this one 23:10:00 I really hate these "oh, this is interesting" tickets 23:10:19 I would prefer a proposal rather than just looking at something 23:10:34 inode0: since you started this discussion, what is your take? 23:10:38 cwickert: ++ 23:11:36 sorry, wasn't paying attention 23:11:36 I think what inode0 suggested is pretty much what we do already 23:12:11 inode0: what exactly is your problem with sponsoring event attendees or what are you trying to improve? 23:12:23 no, almost everywhere the tickets are considered in the order they are opened and I'm begging us to stop that and find a better way 23:12:46 yes, but what do you suggest? 23:13:00 I mean, we try to do it this way already 23:13:10 I suggested an initial review process leading to an order of consideration 23:13:36 would you mind writing down your ideas? 23:13:43 I did in that thread 23:13:47 I very much agree, but we need something to start 23:13:53 then just link the relevant mail 23:14:10 http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/advisory-board/2012-February/011356.html 23:14:15 * cwickert did read the thread but doesn't recall an actual propsal 23:15:10 right, even you are saying this is what is in the wiki already 23:15:25 quote: "I don't have a suggestion about a criterion for who decides but I do have one for how they decide and that is explained in our current travel subsidy guidelines here: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Sponsoring_event_attendees" 23:15:47 then the problem is not the guidelines but that we don't really use them 23:16:04 and in order to use that we can't just look at #1 and say yes or no and then go to #2 23:16:33 agreed, but that's not a proposal either ;) 23:16:41 we need to weigh the advantages and disadvantages of all requests 23:17:15 a proposal is something like: "Have a deadline X weeks before the event and then review all requests" 23:17:18 The rough proposal is two paragraphs below that 23:18:23 but that proposal does not address the problem of "first come, first served" you mentioned 23:18:45 yes, it eliminates that issue 23:19:00 not really 23:19:10 say you deal with the requests when they appear 23:19:15 we don't 23:19:23 we deal with requests when a deadline comes 23:19:28 but that's not part of the propsal 23:19:31 then we deal with all of them 23:19:40 it doesn't mention a deadline 23:19:52 that was hammered and beat on through this conversation 23:20:04 this is why I would like you to outine it a bit and add it to the ticket 23:20:09 would that work for you? 23:21:16 * cwickert takes this as a yes :) 23:21:44 #action inode0 to outline his ideas in ticket 265 a little 23:21:59 ok, that's the last ticket we had on the agenda 23:22:14 lets review the action items from the last meeting 23:22:26 #topic Action items from previous meeting 23:22:34 http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2012-02-22/famsco_2012-02-22.2012-02-22-22.00.html 23:22:42 DONE cwickert to write something about #250 to the ambassadors list 23:22:50 DONE cwickert to file a ticket about the new TM guidelines in order to have a common FAmSCo statement 23:23:02 NOT REALLY DONE kaio to add all details about previous discussions about FUDCon APAC 2012 to the ticket 23:23:17 but I think we have all info now, so there is nothing to follow up, kaio_ 23:23:28 NOT DONE tatica to follow up on #259 and add the 'meeting' keyword again once FAmSCo can help 23:23:44 NOT DONE all FAmSCo members do bring up #250 in their regional meetings 23:23:51 ok, that's it 23:23:57 ? 23:24:01 kk4ewt: ? 23:24:01 ok 23:24:14 what FAmSco Member is in NA 23:24:25 kaio_: no problem, we have all info 23:24:31 kk4ewt: herlo, but he is not here today 23:25:14 kk4ewt: did you discuss swag in the FAmNA meeting? 23:25:31 seems for NA there is no problem, then there is not much to discuss 23:25:51 and there was feedback from the NA folks already 23:26:39 kk4ewt: question answered? 23:26:57 #topic Open Floor 23:26:59 * cwickert will close the meeting in 3 minutes if there are no more questions 23:27:20 cwickert: thats my worry is that all of this messes up what is working 23:27:44 kk4ewt: don't worry, we are trying to learn from the communities where it works 23:27:52 * kk4ewt ==Southern_Gentlem 23:27:57 and not forcing anybody to change something 23:28:07 kk4ewt: ahh :) 23:28:12 nice to see you kk4ewt 23:30:42 alright... 23:30:45 #endmeeting