16:01:43 <nirik> #startmeeting IRC Support SIG (2012-03-15)
16:01:43 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Mar 15 16:01:43 2012 UTC.  The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:01:43 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:01:43 <nirik> #meetingname irc-support-sig
16:01:43 <nirik> #topic init process
16:01:43 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'irc-support-sig'
16:01:51 * N3LRX 
16:02:12 * Sonar_Gal 
16:02:30 * fenrus02 
16:02:47 <nirik> morning everyone.
16:03:23 * FranciscoD is here
16:03:55 <nirik> I don't have much today, so lets go ahead and dive in
16:03:58 <nirik> #topic Week in review
16:03:59 <nirik> http://fedora.theglaserfamily.org/ircstats/fedora-weekly.html
16:04:24 <nirik> anyone have items from the last week? common bugs or issues? things we should all know or look out for?
16:04:52 <fenrus02> do centos users that try to "fix" their "fedora" host count? :)
16:05:01 <KolonelPanic> lol
16:05:08 <Sonar_Gal> fenrus02, no
16:05:36 * FranciscoD didnt observe anything worth reporting
16:06:10 <nirik> ok, yeah, I think it was a pretty typical week.
16:06:29 <nirik> #topic Tickets
16:06:29 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/report/1
16:06:34 <nirik> we have 1 ticket this week...
16:06:45 <Southern_Gentlem> well i did ban someone last night for repeatedly not wanting to give information and told them that when they wanted help and were willing to cooperate to let me know
16:06:46 <nirik> ticket 101: kudos to bodhi_zazen
16:06:59 <FranciscoD> Kudos++ :)
16:07:00 <nirik> https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ticket/101
16:07:21 <Sonar_Gal> Good job bodhi_zazen
16:07:31 <nirik> yeah, good work.
16:07:42 <glguy> Given what I see from bodhi_zazen in general I suspect he deserves a few more of those
16:07:56 <nirik> yeah, he's great
16:08:44 <nirik> #topic Open Floor
16:08:48 <nirik> any items for open floor?
16:08:52 <Southern_Gentlem> well i did ban someone last night for repeatedly not wanting to give information and told them that when they wanted help and were willing to cooperate to let me know
16:08:52 <A124> The thing might be that most people are not fond of this.
16:08:59 <nirik> questions, concerns, willing lotto tickets?
16:09:09 <nirik> Southern_Gentlem: yeah... happens.
16:09:16 <fenrus02> nirik, i'm willing the lotto ticket but it is still not paying out
16:09:20 <glguy> I'm concerned about a general hostility that seems common in #fedora
16:09:23 <FranciscoD> if only more people read the getting help guidelines
16:09:30 <glguy> and is something that we actively avoid when managing #haskell, for example
16:09:35 <dcr226> nirik, winning horse? got that
16:09:44 <nirik> A124: can you rephrase? not sure what you are saying there/
16:09:55 <FranciscoD> glguy: would you have an example too?
16:10:04 <nirik> glguy: yeah... we should try and be friendly. How do you suggest we combat that?
16:10:12 <Sonar_Gal> However for us to help them we need to know certain info and if they don't/will not supply that info it's fruitless for us to try to help
16:10:44 <EvilBob> nirik: Kick the users before they get on anyone's nerves
16:10:57 <glguy> I didn't know this meeting existed until I sat down at my computer and nirik announced it, so I'm unfortunately unprepared, but I believe that the issues is related to brilliant people getting a garage of inane questions and burning out on it
16:10:59 * fenrus02 kicks EvilBob
16:11:05 <glguy> barrage*
16:11:13 <glguy> We have a term "help vampire"
16:11:20 <Sonar_Gal> quiet them and explain the info is needed to get the system working properly.  Give the link of the help guidelines
16:11:31 <A124> nirik: Sorry. Was response to  he positive feedback to bodhi_zazen.
16:11:43 <nirik> really we don't often need to kick anyone... we need to be catalysts and if they are causing problems calmly work them around to help
16:11:46 <Southern_Gentlem> glguy DO NOT Feed the Vampires see http://slash7.com/2006/12/22/vampires/ and http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=542341
16:11:48 <EvilBob> A124: It still made no sense
16:12:05 <nirik> glguy: there are def some of those around...
16:12:07 <A124> Most people don't know about the option to send feedback.
16:12:19 <nirik> A124: ah, well, we do announce it in channel...
16:12:19 <Southern_Gentlem> A124,  then they are blind
16:12:28 <EvilBob> A124: then they don't actually read the channel
16:12:30 <glguy> Anyway, it helps to encourage people to step away rather than to lash out. I don't have a panacea to share, but not addressing it won't help the channel
16:12:31 <Southern_Gentlem> every 100 -150 post
16:12:43 <Sonar_Gal> A124, it runs every so often for the feedback
16:13:06 <nirik> glguy: any ideas welcome. ;) yeah, I agree people who get frustrated should take a break...
16:13:14 <EvilBob> @feedback A124
16:13:23 <nirik> we have had sometimes good luck suggesting that. On the other hand some people get hostile about it. ;(
16:14:13 <Sonar_Gal> And yet we are trying to get the feedback to help us to make the channel better
16:14:19 <A124> The thing is, that people ignore it, and they thinks it's only channel feedback, in general. As I though also first.
16:14:35 <dcr226> A124, write it on your hand
16:14:38 <jfx> How do you get an account to that page? (irc-support-sig)
16:14:44 <dcr226> that how I remember phone numbers
16:14:46 <nirik> A124: perhaps we could change it to suggest feedback on people welcome too.
16:14:48 * jfx stares blindly for links
16:15:02 <glguy> I've seen fedbot announce that message many times, but I had no idea that those tickets would be reviewed weekly by the operators
16:15:08 <nirik> jfx: your fedora account... https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/
16:15:08 <A124> nirik: Yes. That may do the job maybe.
16:15:09 <EvilBob> jfx: It's a Fedora™ Account System account
16:15:21 <jfx> k, thanks!
16:15:32 <nirik> glguy: bummer, sounds like we failed. ;)
16:15:45 <dcr226> glguy, often they are reviewed immediately
16:15:50 <EvilBob> "I didn't know and didn't ask, so it is your fault"?
16:16:04 <Sonar_Gal> yes if we see them we talk about them during the week
16:16:05 * fenrus02 blames EvilBob
16:16:14 <nirik> how about: "Hey, we want to make the channel better. How about dropping us a note and let us know how you feel, good or bad about nicks or issues. https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ (Tickets reviewed weekly)"
16:16:14 * dcr226 checks flash and lennert
16:16:18 <dcr226> fenrus02 +1
16:16:37 <Sonar_Gal> nirik, +1
16:16:42 <Sonar_Guy> nirik: +1
16:16:42 <EvilBob> It is my fault, I rough drafted the current feedback message
16:16:46 <nirik> I thought usrmove was before EvilBob... flash, lennert, usrmove, EvilBob
16:16:47 <glguy> I don't know if EvilBob is talking to me, but my point is just that people might not be filling out tickets because they don't think it will matter
16:17:15 <EvilBob> glguy: There are those that are convinced they don't matter anyhow
16:17:16 <fenrus02> glguy, have you ever filed one?
16:17:16 * nirik is open to suggestions on improving the feedback message to avoid that
16:17:40 <dcr226> nirik, actually yeah, forgot that /me checks usrmove....nah, not that
16:17:43 <glguy> fenrus02: I have not.
16:18:06 <fenrus02> glguy, where did you see that tickets would never be reviewed or commented upon then?
16:18:29 <Sonar_Gal> fenrus02, That's what most would probably think
16:18:30 <EvilBob> "Hey, we want to make the channel better. How about dropping us a note and let us know how you feel the channel is doing, good or bad and give feedback about users or issues also. https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ (Tickets reviewed weekly)"
16:18:32 <nirik> how about this: lets file a ticket on the feedback message and people can comment/brainstorm on improving it over the next week... then we change it when we have a good consensus?
16:18:46 <fenrus02> Sonar_Gal, what's the point in a ticketing system if nobody ever looks at it?  why advertise it?
16:19:03 <Sonar_Gal> fenrus02, True but some people actually think like that
16:19:06 <fenrus02> EvilBob, is it worth inserting the mtg time ?
16:19:23 <Sonar_Gal> It's like going to a restaurant and the comment box being over full
16:19:26 <EvilBob> fenrus02: depends on how long we want the message to get
16:19:44 <fenrus02> EvilBob, if they dont read it now, i'm not sure length matters.
16:19:45 <A124> nirik: Maybe I would substitute "nicks" for "users"
16:19:55 <EvilBob> A124: I did
16:19:59 <nirik> A124: well, they could be bots/automated, but sure.
16:20:03 <jfx> fenrus02: Not knowing about it's adressed weekly, isnt to say it's never adressed.
16:20:13 <dcr226> fenrus02, ofcourse it matters....$(fill in mom/wife joke here)
16:20:17 <A124> EvilBob: That's the best.
16:20:51 <EvilBob> Here is my suggestion "Hey, we want to make the channel better. How about dropping us a note and let us know how you feel the channel is doing, good or bad and give feedback about users or issues also. https://fedorahosted.org/irc-support-sig/ (Tickets reviewed weekly)"
16:21:11 * nirik is fine with that. We could adjust.
16:21:11 <Sonar_Gal> ^^ +1
16:21:20 <dcr226> +1 let it fly
16:21:27 <N3LRX> +1
16:21:29 <fenrus02> "on Thu 1700utc" ?
16:21:31 <mangas> +1
16:21:34 <A124> nirik: You're right. "users and bots" But most people not "leet" enough don't know about bots anyway.
16:21:38 <A124> #agreed
16:21:42 <EvilBob> I think we should be able to quicky vote this and not tie it up in committee
16:22:03 <Southern_Gentlem> +1
16:22:21 <Sonar_Gal> +1
16:23:06 <EvilBob> any objections to my suggested message and avoiding delay?
16:23:28 <nirik> works for me.
16:23:43 <nirik> #agreed will put new hopefullly clearer feedback message in place.
16:23:44 <EvilBob> glguy A124 Thanks for the input on this
16:23:49 <nirik> Anything else for open floor?
16:24:04 * bodhi_zazen waves =)
16:24:09 <EvilBob> jfx: Thnk You also
16:24:10 * fenrus02 ^5s bodhi_zazen
16:24:18 <EvilBob> bodhi_zazen: Showboat!
16:24:21 <EvilBob> ;)
16:24:25 <Sonar_Gal> haha
16:24:54 <jfx> EvilBob: For what?  (You're welcome anyways) :D
16:25:08 <A124> EvilBob: Welcome. Thanks to you for the most awesome idea.
16:25:12 <EvilBob> jfx: asking the "Where do I sign up" question
16:25:16 <bodhi_zazen> I think #fedora is a great balance of support + "RTFM" - we do need to teach people how to learn
16:25:32 <Sonar_Gal> +1 there
16:25:35 <EvilBob> jfx: It points out to me that I need to make a macro about that
16:25:40 <jfx> Who can vote on meetings? Chairs, all or else?
16:25:40 <bodhi_zazen> #fedora is somewhere between #ubuntu and #gentoo or #apache
16:26:27 <EvilBob> jfx: Most of the time we try to be relaxed and take input and opinion on matters from anyone and everyone
16:26:37 <fenrus02> jfx, do you have an opinion about something?
16:26:40 <bodhi_zazen> Perhaps , when people are frustrated, answer the question (if you know) -> point to documentation for further info
16:26:40 <A124> Ubuntu community is awful.. I got flamed in the first minute.
16:27:00 <jfx> fenrus02: Nope, not yet.
16:27:00 <nirik> jfx: we usually work by consensus... but after that operators are allowed to vote. See: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/IRC_support_sig
16:27:04 <EvilBob> jfx: In the case of "important" things there is a wiki page outlining it
16:27:46 <jfx> OKay. Other RL meetings usually limit voting to members. Seeing how many lurkers this channel had, I thought it could be the same.
16:27:50 <EvilBob> A124: and we are better because we have not stopped flaming you yet?
16:27:51 <EvilBob> ;)
16:28:05 <Khaytsus> I see where this is going
16:28:13 <bodhi_zazen> A124: Do not let the bad behavior of a single individual, on #ubuntu , #fedora, or elsewhere, influence your opinion of the entire community, they all have vampires, stars, and duds
16:28:26 <nirik> anyhow, if there's nothing else to discuss, we can close out the meeting in a minute or two.
16:28:29 <A124> EvilBob: No. I think you were the only flaming me.
16:28:31 <nirik> bodhi_zazen: +1
16:28:45 <nirik> A124: you just need to get EvilBob's humor. ;)
16:28:46 <fenrus02> one thing that makes #fedora different is that there are multiple fedora-related channels to sort out the user question types.
16:28:48 <A124> bodhi_zazen: Yes. Thank you for reminding me.
16:28:52 <Sonar_Gal> A124, EvilBob flames everyone!!!
16:28:55 <EvilBob> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbLhHtaVIO4
16:28:57 <Southern_Gentlem> a124 no he was asking for clearification
16:29:05 <fenrus02> it means #fedora does not have 1600 users in it.
16:29:08 <A124> Sonar_Gal: Yes, I got aware of it xD
16:29:12 <Sonar_Gal> :)
16:30:12 <Sonar_Gal> fenrus02, Thank goodness it doesn't have 1600 users
16:30:33 <fenrus02> well, the +r helps :)
16:31:13 <Sonar_Gal> true if people would actually register then they could get all the help they need
16:31:48 <EvilBob> not that many get dropped in to #fedora-unregistered honestly
16:32:08 <EvilBob> Most users I clear from there are frequent fliers
16:32:11 <Sonar_Gal> not as many as there use to be
16:33:09 <Khaytsus> I still get dumped in there WITH network password AND delayed nickserv ident...  I just know I gotta manually fix it when my server freezes (which seems to be happening with increasing frequency)
16:34:27 <EvilBob> Anyhow, Have a great week
16:34:31 <N3LRX> I haven't had any problems recently getting dunmped to -unregistered
16:34:33 <EvilBob> Remember people early detection of breast cancer is the closest thing we have to a cure. Guys, remind your Girl to check, Girls... check the girls!
16:35:02 * dcr226 spent all day Tuesday checking
16:35:03 <A124> ...
16:35:12 * dcr226 its dirty work, but someone's got to do it
16:35:21 <nirik> thanks for coming everyone.
16:35:23 <nirik> #endmeeting