06:09:57 <tagoh_> #startmeeting i18n
06:09:57 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Oct 18 06:09:57 2012 UTC.  The chair is tagoh_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
06:09:57 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
06:09:58 <tagoh_> #meetingname i18n
06:09:58 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'i18n'
06:09:59 <tagoh_> #topic agenda and roll call
06:09:59 <tagoh_> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/I18N/Meetings/2012-10-18
06:10:13 <paragan> hi
06:10:16 <mfabian> hi
06:10:18 <tagoh_> okay, sorry for late start. let's have a meeting
06:10:36 <pravins> hi
06:11:26 <epico> hi
06:11:35 <juhp> hi
06:11:37 <dueno> hi
06:12:17 <tagoh_> okay, let's get started.
06:12:29 <tagoh_> #topic Upcoming schedule
06:12:30 <tagoh_> #info 2012-10-23        Beta Change Deadline
06:12:30 <tagoh_> #info 2012-10-23        Features 100% Complete
06:12:30 <tagoh_> #info 2012-11-06        Beta Release
06:12:31 <tagoh_> #info 2012-11-26        Final Change Deadline
06:12:40 <tagoh_> as you know beta slipped by one week.
06:13:28 <tagoh_> good to keep testing to improve beta much more.
06:14:11 <tagoh_> okay, move on.
06:14:14 <tagoh_> #topic New topics
06:14:15 <fujiwarat> hi
06:14:15 <tagoh_> #info #8: Hinting related issues for Liberation_Fonts_2 on Fedora 18 (pravins)
06:14:16 <tagoh_> #link https://fedorahosted.org/i18n/ticket/8
06:15:53 <tagoh_> pravins: so, can you say more about this topic, please
06:16:25 <pravins> tagoh_: yes sure
06:16:51 <anish_> hi
06:17:01 <pravins> As you know we are providing Liberation Fonts 2.0 in Fedora 18. It is based on Google Croscore fonts
06:17:26 <pravins> Has more character coverage compared Liberation 1.07.2
06:17:30 <pravins> better hinting
06:17:57 <pravins> this discussion is specifically w.r.t.
06:17:58 <pravins> .bug 856239
06:18:01 <zodbot> pravins: Bug 856239 fuzzy font rendering (Liberation 2 regression) - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=856239
06:19:38 <pravins> rendering text provided in this url http://kasmail.kasserver.com/ here Liberation 1.07.2 looks more sharp compared to Liberation 2.00.1 (anti-aliased)
06:20:11 <pravins> i simple created .html of same context of web url, screeshot is here https://bugzilla.redhat.com/attachment.cgi?id=623366
06:20:32 <pravins> i can clearly see here, Liberation 2.00.0 provides better rendering
06:21:26 <pravins> i want comments from you all on same
06:21:41 <paragan> ok
06:21:54 <pravins> s/want/looking for
06:22:01 <juhp> pravins, which one is 2.00 ?
06:22:34 <pravins> juhp: right hand side
06:22:54 <juhp> I see
06:23:32 <mfabian> The left side doesn’t look like the sharp byte code hinting either though.
06:24:16 <tagoh_> guess he don't just like blurred rendering right?
06:24:25 <mfabian> In the picture on the left side, the 'i' in the word English is very blurred.
06:25:07 <pravins> tagoh_: yes
06:25:37 <pravins> mfabian: yes, if we closed watch even E-mail "E", horizontal bars are not equal width as Vertical.
06:26:13 <tagoh_> yeah, that would be obvious one
06:26:49 <juhp> true but conversely the umlaut over the U is pretty unclear on the right
06:26:57 <juhp> "u
06:27:02 <mfabian> For other letters it is the other way round, so some letters look more blurred on the left, some look more blurred on the right, I can see no really obvious difference between these two screenshots. The left side is slightly less blurred overall, but only very slighly.
06:27:19 <juhp> ok
06:27:20 <mfabian> Yes, the 'u' in Deutsch seems better to me on the left.
06:27:45 <pravins> mfabian:  juhp: yes, dots looked bit merged due to anti-aliased may be on right side
06:27:56 <juhp> right
06:27:59 <mfabian> The 'h' in 'Ohne' is better on the left.
06:28:38 <pravins> reporter has provided 2 comparison screenshot on Fedora 17 and Fedora 18
06:28:53 <pravins> those are https://bugzilla.redhat.com/attachment.cgi?id=611793 F17, https://bugzilla.redhat.com/attachment.cgi?id=611794 F18
06:29:13 <juhp> the distance from screen and size may also be a factor
06:29:45 <mfabian> I zoomed in using 'xmag' to look at the individual pixels.
06:30:05 <juhp> so a (cascade) comparison for different sizes might also be helpful
06:30:32 <tagoh_> true
06:30:39 <pravins> i have done some comparison with Libre Office as well
06:30:41 <pravins> http://pravins.fedorapeople.org/liberation/text-liberation-fonts-2-00-1.png
06:30:47 <pravins> http://pravins.fedorapeople.org/liberation/text-liberation-1-07-2.png
06:31:08 <mfabian> The reporters screenshots show a much more obvious difference between f17 and f18.
06:31:48 <pravins> mfabian: yeah, but dunno what CSS websites using. local HTML result are little bit different
06:32:04 <pravins> Liberation 2.0 looks good with local html
06:32:24 <mfabian> On the reporters screenshots, I would say the f17 version is clearly better because it shows really sharp byte code rendering which I prefer very much. Sometimes it is hard for me to understand how anybody could prefer more fuzzy rendering, but some people really do, so it seems to be a matter of taste.
06:32:26 <juhp> the Liberation shots are more different
06:33:18 <juhp> pravins, are the Liberation shots both from f18 or ?
06:33:38 <pravins> juhp: yes, i just  used different Liberation fonts version
06:33:44 <juhp> ok
06:33:54 <paragan> we should check some system application UI in f18 for such testing
06:35:16 <tagoh_> though some characters' metrics looks broken with 1.07.2 on that shot
06:35:29 <mfabian> For easy testing how a font looks with different hinting options, I usually do 'ftview 12 /usr/share/fonts/liberation/LiberationSans-Regular.ttf' and then use the 'f' and 'h' keys to toggle the hinting options. That makes it easier to see what happens exactly for me, with a website some other side effects may cause confusion.
06:35:59 <tagoh_> mfabian: right.
06:36:04 <juhp> aha
06:36:14 <pravins> agree
06:36:33 <juhp> I never really understand the rendering of office apps though
06:36:49 <pravins> with Liberation 2.0, we also get rid of some long pending hinting issues of liberation 1.07.2
06:36:55 <pravins> .bug 591556
06:36:58 <zodbot> pravins: Bug 591556 Blur on Russian «б» and number '8' has some wart on its face. - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=591556
06:37:02 <mfabian> I don't know the current state, but a few years ago I had a long discussion with Michael Meeks about rendering in openoffice.
06:37:05 <pravins> .bug 715309
06:37:08 <zodbot> pravins: Bug 715309 [hinting] Bold 'u' looks skinny - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=715309
06:37:16 <pravins> .bug 768067
06:37:19 <zodbot> pravins: Bug 768067 [hinting] Lowercase U, V, W, X and Y too thin at 18px bold - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=768067
06:37:37 <pravins> .bug 591554
06:37:39 <zodbot> pravins: Bug 591554 Font artifact with number 4 - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=591554
06:38:02 <juhp> mfabian, did you talk about whitespace between characters?
06:38:26 <mfabian> At that time, they disabled the hinting because with hinting on they had problems with the spacing between the glyphs changing slightly causing slightly uneven line lengths.
06:38:45 <juhp> hmm
06:40:06 <mfabian> Werner Lemberg from freetype said, this shouldn’t happen and the openoffice people are doing something wrong, but I don’t know whether they ever fixed it. But because of this, rendering in openoffice used to look different then in other applications and ignored the system settings.
06:41:15 <tagoh_> so disabled hinting for all of fonts no matter what the quality of the hinting is?
06:42:36 <mfabian> juhp:  yes, the white space between glyphs may change slightly with hinting because the stems need to be aligned to pixels to make them really sharp.
06:43:19 <juhp> right I see - but I find that really annoying - these large arbitrary spaces in words
06:44:43 * pravins will update comparison screenshot of ftview on bugzilla
06:44:54 <pravins> s/of/with
06:46:05 <mfabian> juhp: it really seems to be a matter of taste, I very much prefer the sharpness, even if this causes some side effects like uneven spacing withing words or a letter 'm' not having the same distance between the 3 stems.
06:46:46 <juhp> ok - well I don't like it much but I am not crossing to the other side for it ;o)
06:46:52 <juhp> :)
06:47:00 <tagoh_> pravins: so given that it's still far from what he expects, is there any way we can still do?
06:47:26 <pravins> tagoh_: i have disable anti-aliasing in Liberation 2.00.1 version but still it renders same
06:47:38 <pravins> i think ft-view will give some better results
06:47:47 <tagoh_> sure, I think so
06:47:57 <juhp> anti-aliasing has no effect?
06:48:19 <juhp> (or disabling it at least)
06:48:26 <pravins> as mfabian said might be application are creating some noise there
06:49:25 <pravins> 2. I personally feel readability is improved in Liberation 2.0
06:49:37 <pravins> since its more thick compared to old version
06:49:45 <pravins> we have more character coverage
06:50:25 <mfabian> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=856239#c28 <- Behdad writes that he prefers the blurred version, it is hard for me to understand but some people really prefer that.
06:50:37 <juhp> certainly feels like it is heavier
06:50:38 <pravins> But as it is personnel preference for Sharp or blur version
06:50:53 <mfabian> and in comment#37 he writes: “Would help if you just learn to accept that these things are subjective.  If you cannot see how it is clearer, fine.  Some of us see it that way.”
06:50:57 <tagoh_> pravins: dunno how you tried that, if there are no hinting in the font, freetype enables auto-hinting automatically in fedora afaik. fyi
06:51:04 <mfabian> I think Behdad is right there, this is subjective.
06:51:15 <juhp> sure
06:51:53 <pravins> yes
06:52:04 <pravins> so what we should do considering the request
06:52:25 <pravins> backward compatibility for rendering looks bit difficult to me
06:52:53 <mfabian> I remember endless bug reports when I worked for SuSE very similar to this bug 856239, no matter what you do, some people will be unhappy and complain loudly.
06:54:03 <juhp> right
06:55:34 <juhp> pravins, is it possible to generate some more comparison shots?  maybe try to avoid browser or office
06:55:40 <fujiwarat> How about MS-Windows and Mac OS about the hinting? I thought the problem was anti-alias.
06:56:49 <pravins> juhp: yes
06:57:09 <epico> fujiwarat, maybe they used sub-pixel hinting.
06:57:10 <tagoh_> let's see how it looks like on ftview.
06:57:17 <fujiwarat> ok
06:59:30 <tagoh_> #action pravins to take another screenshots with ftview
06:59:45 <tagoh_> okay, anything else better trying?
07:00:16 <pravins> http://pravins.fedorapeople.org/liberation1.7-fedora17.png
07:00:21 <pravins> http://pravins.fedorapeople.org/liberation2-0-fedora18.png
07:00:36 <pravins> just took these screenshots
07:02:13 <tagoh_> pravins: maybe better press 6 to show with waterfall. it gives you more comparison on different size
07:02:24 <mfabian> To me the f17 screenshot looks slighly better, less fuzzy.
07:03:28 <pravins> do you think, should we provide backward  compatibility as well? i..e packaging Liberation 1.07 with different name. may be liberation-old-fonts?
07:05:50 <tagoh_> hm, IMHO it's up to you.
07:06:41 <mfabian> Would enough people care so strongly about that, that it is worth the effort to keep the old liberation fonts? I think I would try to avoid that and keep only the new fonts. The better glyph coverage is probably more important than these differences in hinting. And keeping them both might cause more work for you.
07:07:16 <pravins> exactly, will be problem to maintain both version
07:07:47 <pravins> .bug 473842
07:07:49 <zodbot> pravins: Bug 473842 RFE: Add Greek Polytonic support to Liberation fonts - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=473842
07:08:02 <pravins> with liberation 2..0, we got this RFE resolve as well
07:08:30 <pravins> thanks all for your opinions, really very very useful
07:09:44 <tagoh_> okay, let's see how it's going on bz then.
07:09:54 <tagoh_> pravins: thanks for bringing this up here.
07:10:00 <tagoh_> let's move on then.
07:10:08 <tagoh_> #topic Open Floor
07:10:35 <tagoh_> so anything else topics to discuss here prior to close the meeting?
07:10:43 <anish_> i-t-b now supports 73 locales :)
07:10:56 <anish_> thanks mfabian
07:11:02 <tagoh_> aha. cool :)
07:11:44 <anish_> mfabian, added support native keyboards
07:12:55 <mfabian> I could not figure out how to do Korean yet, maybe it is not needed because ibus-hangul probably supports suggestions already. But trying to get Korean working might give me some insights in how to handle combining characters.
07:13:30 <mfabian> anish_: maybe I should update the f18 package soon before it is too late for the deadline for f18?
07:14:28 <tagoh_> mfabian: not too late yet I think as long as there are volunteers for testing and give a karma
07:14:56 <tagoh_> for beta I meant.
07:15:47 <tagoh_> in current schedule, next Tuesday is it.
07:16:23 <tagoh_> anything else?
07:18:03 <tagoh_> okay, if not, let's stop here then.
07:18:12 <tagoh_> thanks everyone for the meeting!
07:18:16 <tagoh_> #endmeeting