18:00:49 #startmeeting 18:00:49 Meeting started Fri Nov 2 18:00:49 2012 UTC. The chair is jwb. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:00:49 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 18:01:01 #meetingname fedora-kernel 18:01:01 The meeting name has been set to 'fedora-kernel' 18:01:10 #meetingtopic Fedora Kernel 18:01:15 #topic init 18:01:24 should be a quick meeting today. who's here? 18:01:32 * nirik is lurking around 18:01:34 * jforbes is here 18:01:49 jsmith: thanks! :) 18:01:52 * brunowolff is here 18:02:07 davej, ? 18:02:25 * jsmith lurks just for kicks and giggles 18:03:02 sorry, here. (dude fitting new storm doors has the best timing apparently) 18:03:27 should we do the release overview quickly? 18:03:40 #topic F16 18:03:57 F16 has a 3.6.5 update waiting for your karma 18:04:24 that pretty much sums it up, doesn't it? 18:04:27 There are a large number of important fixes since this update covers 3.6.2-3.6.5, so the sooner we get it out the better 18:04:46 I needinfo'd a ton of 16 bugs earlier this week. a bunch of them got replied to, some closed because of fixes, some became 17 bugs, but a lot are still problems apparently. 18:04:57 Yeah, bugs are kind of hard to guage at the moment, a lot of the F16 bugs are still waiting for a response from davej's mass update 18:05:06 #info F16 3.6.5 in updates-testing covers 3.6.2-3.6.5. lots of fixes. please test and add karma 18:06:32 ok, moving on 18:06:36 #topic F17 18:06:49 17 is a bit of a mess right now. Over 400 open bugs. 18:07:05 I'm getting the feeling a lot of them are related however. 18:07:23 yeah. i had it down to 300 at one point, but the rebase of f16 and other things seemed to have bumped the count back up 18:07:31 so hopefully some point real soon things will turn around there. 18:08:08 seems like there's a number of 'my screen in blank' type video bugs... 18:08:18 at least we see a lot of those in #fedora 18:08:24 during boot? 18:08:25 #info F17 3.6.5 in updates-testing. please test and give karma 18:08:55 nirik, the ones we've been calling "fb bugs"? 18:09:03 davej: yeah. Usually it's "I updated and rebooted and got a blank screen"... but it's hard to pin down what kind of hardware or whatnot 18:09:06 yeah 18:09:17 I think that framebuffer hand-off problem still isn't fixed. Though I don't think we've seen (m)any f16 reports yet 18:09:52 one day maybe one of us will get hardware affected by it. Until then, that one's a mystery 18:10:18 airlied thinks it's not in the fb layer anymore, but in the individual video drivers 18:10:31 but we've seen it on i915, nouveau, and radeon so... 18:10:41 so (to bring up another topic)... 18:10:50 either fb or drm or every driver has a bug that's producing similar results 18:10:50 would it be helpful to ask them to try the vanilla kernel? 18:10:59 (that thl has been working on providing) 18:11:24 I'd be surprised if that helped if they're built with the same options 18:11:26 possibly. i'd be surprised if it were a patch we're carrying though. we aren't carrying any drm/fb patches that i'm aware of 18:11:44 ok. 18:12:00 #info a number of 'blank screen/hung' bugs reported. no clear cause yet. git bisect is welcome 18:12:31 anything else on f17? 18:12:31 previous attempts at bisects haven't worked out so well. not sure what to make of that 18:12:38 davej, yeah... 18:12:43 It's a race, and people have missed it just rebuilding locally 18:12:49 the closest we got was the merge commit, which... 18:13:30 it might need something more intrusive like early console debugging 18:14:00 davej: the first part airlied found required hacking netconsole to be able to see anything at all 18:14:14 yeah, it's messy debugging stuff that early 18:15:07 think that's it for 17 ? 18:15:17 think so 18:15:21 #topic F18 18:15:41 last night adamw and the QA team got 3.6.5-2.f18 approved for the beta 18:16:13 that contains a backport of the modsign code in 3.7-rc2 and an update to the secure-boot patchset to import certificates from UEFI in SB mode 18:16:21 if you aren't in SB mode, it doesn't even bother 18:16:44 there's some small fallout with building external modules against that, but i hope that will be resolved soon 18:16:49 i have a patch sent to rusty to fix it 18:17:08 we'll have at least one more kernel build needed for beta 18:17:28 it will probably be 3.6.6 plus some small changes 18:17:40 Are you going to wait for the patch to be accepted upstream before including it in fedora kernels? 18:18:03 brunowolff, i'd like to, yes. hopefully rusty pulls it in tomorrow. he took the other one already 18:18:13 brunowolff, i won't wait for it to get to linus' tree. just into rusty's 18:18:32 I'll keep an eye out for it. 18:18:52 once i have that in place, i plan on writing up a brief tutorial on how to sign 3rd party modules 18:19:00 but unless you are in SB mode, you really don't need to 18:19:39 i still need to go through the open bugs, but overall i think we're in decent shape. 18:19:45 worth noting that we've got around 50 f18 bugs open, vs the 400 f17 bugs, and they're the same kernel. F18 still not getting a huge amount of testing. hopefully that will change with the beta. 18:20:08 right. was just going to say "of course, we still have all the F17 bugs probably lurking" 18:20:37 we should probably be prepared for a bunch of the 'blank screen' bugs when beta lands 18:21:13 yeah :\ 18:21:28 any other comments/questions on f18? 18:21:41 I'd *really* like to get a handle on the webcam thing too. Going to see if I can devote some time to that next I think 18:21:50 #info 3.6.5-2.fc18 is the current kernel. one more kernel update coming before beta 18:21:53 If 3.7 is released before final freeze, would you use 3.7 for final? 18:22:00 brunowolff, doubtful 18:22:17 we've discussed that a couple times. unless f18 slips by a huge amount, we'll probably just do an update for 3.7 18:22:40 brunowolff: we had discussed last time, it might be a 0 day update, but we would rather have more time testing since media can't be respun 18:22:46 #info F18 GA kernel level is still expected to be 3.6.x. 3.7 will be a rebase update 18:23:51 That's kind of why I asked. I would switch to using 3.7 everywhere if it looked like 3.7 might be used for the release. Otherwise I just use it for my rawhide machine for now. 18:24:15 ah 18:24:24 oh, we should talk about update paths maybe 18:24:44 the QA team expressed frustration that f17 had a newer kernel out there than f18 18:24:56 which is partly why 3.6.5-2.fc18 got accepted during freeze 18:25:10 i'll try and keep this in mind going forward, but i don't see a magic solution here 18:25:19 we can't sit on updates for the majority of fedora users 18:25:49 especially when those updates are security fixes, unless we start munging version numbers (no) 18:26:15 Well, it really only impacts upgrades right? 18:26:17 If you think there might be a version issue, could you use the fc17.1 type naming or is that especially painful for the kernel? 18:26:30 jforbes, yeah 18:26:41 I think as long as we get things fixed up quickly enough, it's something we'll have to live with 18:26:51 it'll be an issue even post-GA 18:26:52 the freeze process is painful: film at 11 18:27:11 so the testers could easily remove the newer kernel. before the test. 18:27:19 that too 18:27:36 except the current instructions say to make sure you update your f17 system first 18:28:12 ok, moving on 18:28:17 #topic rawhide 18:28:29 rawhide is chugging along. currently at 3.7-rc3.git4 18:28:38 it continues to get little testing 18:29:00 as expected, 3.7-rcX is looking good on my machines at this point, but we need more testers 18:29:48 Maybe it is time to start the rawhide-nodebug kernel repo 18:29:51 #info rawhide is at 3.7-rc3.gitX. will continue through the 3.7 RC releases 18:29:56 As soon as I can build dahdi-linux again, I'll be using 3.7 kernels on my main desktop at home. 18:30:16 jforbes, possibly! something i was thinking of doing once i get f18 in order 18:30:31 I have repo space already set up, I can start doing that, but should we build it against the current stable release or against alpha/beta? 18:30:48 #idea ramp up the 'rawhide-nodebug kernel repo' 18:30:59 jforbes, why wouldn't we build it in koji via scratch? 18:31:38 jwb: we would, but we still should probably use a build target of a release people will install it on 18:31:54 jwb: Oh, NM. has to be mock 18:32:13 jwb: since we don't want to commit turning off debug every day, then turning it back on 18:32:33 right. or scratch with --srpm 18:32:34 Bah... NM. typing before thinking through, srpm push to koji 18:32:49 i just think of koji scratch as "mock not on my machine" 18:33:21 So still, we need to pick a target. I would probably recommend newest stable, since we don't want to take F18 testers away from F18, there are so few as it is 18:33:44 i'm still confused 18:33:54 what target? just scratch build it for rawhide 18:34:34 99% of the time that's fine 18:34:48 cases where it isn't? 18:34:52 Actually, we have to anyway. 18:34:53 * nirik is considering making a push to use rawhide day to day and get others to in the f19 cycle... 18:35:08 Occasionally other bits of rawhide are broken and cause issues. 18:35:28 But more frequently we have buildreqs which are not in current stable releases (pesign, etc) 18:36:00 yeah. and in the case of "f19 compiler broke something" we want to know that asap anyway 18:36:18 where by broke i mean "miscompiled" not "failed build" 18:36:27 nirik, i plan on running a rawhide machine during f19 too 18:36:41 Okay, so will start building against rawhide. How many kernels do we want to keep in the repo? just latest? 18:36:59 cool. I was thinking of making a group of known rawhide day to day users... could help each other and fix stupid things that get broken. 18:37:17 jforbes, probably to start with 18:37:38 it would be nice if we could see how much usage that repo is getting too, but i'm not sure how to accomplish that 18:37:38 can quickly get huge if not, so we would need a really good reason to keep more 18:37:39 nirik: it would be nice to have more organisation about rawhide, so people are aware of what's busted from day to day. 18:37:59 it's no fun updating, finding shit's all fucked up, and then reporting and finding out that a bunch of people already knew 18:38:04 jwb: I can see if we can get request counts 18:38:08 yeah, also more provenpackagers using it day to day to go fix junk that happens as it happens... 18:38:27 instead of weeks later 18:38:52 jforbes, yeah, cool 18:39:13 anyhow, beyond the scope here, just thought I would mention it. 18:39:19 It would be nice to get updates-testing packages from branched (while there is a branched) into rawhide as well. As otherwise stuff stays broken there longer than in branched on a regular basis. 18:39:19 perhaps even a #fedora-rawhide channel would be useful. it's too easy to miss stuff on -devel 18:39:38 * nirik nods. 18:39:51 and rawhide users are not all developers. 18:40:06 brunowolff: I would prefer to not have any inheritance at all. 18:40:09 anyway, kind of deviating away from kernel stuff here... 18:40:16 but we have had that discussion before. 18:40:24 #info rawhide needs love. much love. 18:40:38 ok, let's move on to open topics 18:40:42 #topic open floor 18:41:06 If the developers did rawhide builds that would be fine, but in practice a lot don't want to do extra builds for rawhide. 18:43:22 brunowolff: IMHO they should suck it up... but thats just me... so I will shut up now. ;) 18:43:26 any open floor topics? 18:45:15 i know knurd has a number of RFCs out on the kernel list. i think we're still working through some of them 18:45:43 and i don't think he's present today 18:45:51 something about vacation. whatever that is 18:46:15 ok, let's call it a meeting. 18:46:21 done 18:46:22 Thanks 18:46:28 thanks for attending everyone 18:46:31 #endmeeting