06:01:33 <tagoh_> #startmeeting i18n 06:01:34 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Nov 29 06:01:33 2012 UTC. The chair is tagoh_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 06:01:34 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 06:01:34 <tagoh_> #meetingname i18n 06:01:34 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'i18n' 06:01:34 <tagoh_> #topic agenda and roll call 06:01:35 <tagoh_> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/I18N/Meetings/2012-11-29 06:01:48 <tagoh_> okay, time to have i18n meeting now 06:02:26 <juhp> hi 06:02:28 <__anish__> hi 06:02:32 <epico> hi 06:02:43 <mfabian> hi 06:04:31 * tagoh_ looks at pravins 06:04:44 <pravins> tagoh_: hi 06:05:02 <paragan> hi 06:05:08 <tagoh_> hi guys, okay, let's get started then. 06:05:19 <tagoh_> #topic Upcoming schedule 06:05:19 <tagoh_> #info 2012-12-18 Final Change Deadline 06:05:20 <tagoh_> #info 2013-01-08 Fedora 18 Final Release 06:06:25 <fujiwarat> hi 06:06:38 <tagoh_> well, beta is out finally. it looks good to me so far though, we still need to test more. 06:07:46 <tagoh_> #topic Outstanding topics 06:07:46 <tagoh_> #info #8: Hinting related issues for Liberation_Fonts_2 on Fedora 18 (pravins) 06:07:47 <tagoh_> #link https://fedorahosted.org/i18n/ticket/8 06:07:56 <tagoh_> pravins: please go ahead 06:08:01 <pravins> tagoh_: for easy testing, i have created http://pravins.fedorapeople.org/liberation-fonts-ttf-1-07-2.tar.gz 06:08:27 <pravins> this will install liberation 1-07-2 fonts with family name appended with 1-07-2 06:09:28 <tagoh_> well, just to summarize: we need to have a decision to go or no-go with liberation fonts 2. 06:09:37 <tagoh_> for f18 06:10:51 <tagoh_> looking at the bug, it seems happens on firefox only right? at least as the user said. 06:11:05 <pravins> tagoh_: yes, mostly firefox affected 06:11:30 <pravins> i have added some more screenshot http://pravins.fedorapeople.org/liberation/comparison-liberationsans-1-and-2in-ftsstring.png 06:11:32 <tagoh_> is it our build? or SuSE's? 06:11:52 <mfabian> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=881051#c3 is not firefox but kedit. 06:11:54 <pravins> .bug 881051 06:11:56 <zodbot> pravins: Bug 881051 hinting regression with liberation sans - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=881051 06:12:04 <pravins> this is tested on f18 Beta 06:12:52 <pravins> mfabian: yes. 06:13:07 <pravins> i tried to reproduce issues raise by Ilya in bugzilla 06:13:23 <pravins> only one is valid as per my testing 06:13:27 <pravins> and that is "Some thick letters in the right window fuse such as letters "ым" in the word "лицензированными"." 06:13:32 <juhp> pravins, that's the only screenshot? 06:13:52 <pravins> juhp: yes 06:14:03 * juhp was hoping to see a cascade too at least 06:14:07 <juhp> and for each family etc 06:14:09 <pravins> juhp: i have added one more .odt file http://pravins.fedorapeople.org/liberation/liberation-2-and-1-and-croscore-testing.odt 06:14:15 <pravins> juhp: hmm 06:14:16 <juhp> yeah I see 06:14:28 <juhp> as we talked about earlier I think 06:14:30 <mfabian> Ilya writes: “The broken hinting also makes the lower part of the "в" letter to appear smaller than the upper part (look at the word "шрифтов")” 06:14:33 <mfabian> I can also see that. 06:14:43 <pravins> this odt has text with fonts applied liberation 2 & 1 and also google croscore 06:15:09 <pravins> mfabian: i tried that in ftstring but not able to reproduce 06:16:17 <pravins> while more testing. One point is very clear that Liberation 2.0 hinting output is not compatible with Liberation 1.0 06:17:41 <tagoh_> pravins: no screenshots in ftstring say for that? 06:18:58 <juhp> not compatible? 06:19:07 <pravins> tagoh_: no, i can add 06:19:19 <pravins> juhp: yes, liberation 1.0 hinting output is sharp 06:19:33 <pravins> but liberation 2.0 is more bold and bit blurred compare to version 1.0 06:19:39 <juhp> ok - sure it is different 06:19:44 <juhp> hmm yeah 06:19:56 <pravins> and users are used to Liberation 1.0 hinting style 06:20:46 <juhp> right in retrospect we should have started this analysis/comparison before changing... 06:21:39 <pravins> the problem is subjectivity on hinting output, the one which i feel better 06:21:43 <pravins> other might not 06:21:46 <juhp> right 06:21:51 <mfabian> *some* users are used to the old style. 06:22:03 <mfabian> It is really subjective. 06:22:06 <juhp> definitely - others might not notice ;) 06:22:17 <pravins> yes 06:22:25 <juhp> it is certainly a considerable change 06:22:34 <pravins> but looks like SUSE are using Liberation fonts in firefox Menu items as well 06:22:42 <juhp> interesting 06:22:53 <juhp> so they default to Liberation on the desktop now? 06:23:49 <juhp> pravins, can 2.0 be further fixed for f18?? 06:24:05 <pravins> juhp: it need more work 06:24:12 <juhp> okay 06:24:19 <pravins> we need to fix its hinting instruction and make output compatible with Liberation 1.0 06:24:42 <juhp> does it have to be the same? 06:24:44 <pravins> i am sure regarding one point that fork from Croscore was successful 06:24:56 <juhp> (well guess that is what some are saying) 06:25:13 <pravins> juhp: consider extensive uses of Liberation 1.0, i think we should keep backward compatibility 06:25:21 <juhp> right 06:25:39 <juhp> pravins, can you say more on success part? you mean technically? 06:25:57 <pravins> Yes 06:26:13 <pravins> 1. Liberation 2.0 has more coverage than Liberation 1.0 06:26:19 <juhp> right 06:26:41 <pravins> 2. Output rendering is now more brighter compate to 1.0, which someone might prefer better 06:26:49 <pravins> s/compate/compare 06:26:53 <juhp> yes heavier 06:27:02 <pravins> i would like to make one point here 06:27:13 <pravins> last time i was talking with one font designer, for font for WEb 06:27:19 <juhp> I feel like we still need more input from the Fedora community before making a decision but that could also be for f19 06:27:47 <juhp> also more screenshots :) 06:27:50 <pravins> he said web fonts weight (thickness) should be bit more 06:27:56 <juhp> to make that decision :) 06:28:18 <juhp> pravins, okay - maybe that is why Google preferred the heavier style 06:28:39 <pravins> juhp: yeah, but it is not mentioned anywhere. just i related it littlebit 06:28:56 <pravins> and one more point to change my mind was. I tested Windows 8 and Mac 06:29:07 <pravins> there desktop, menu fonts are very sharp 06:29:25 <juhp> you tested Croscore on Windows 8 and Mac ? 06:29:32 <pravins> juhp: not 06:29:35 <pravins> but there UI fonts 06:29:56 <tagoh_> how does Liberation2 look like on other platforms say? 06:30:20 <pravins> tagoh_: not tested it :( 06:30:27 <pravins> i will 06:30:27 <juhp> any difference in reading now between Cros and Lib2? 06:30:33 <juhp> erm rendering! 06:30:34 <pravins> juhp: no 06:30:37 <juhp> ok 06:30:43 <pravins> if you open http://pravins.fedorapeople.org/liberation/liberation-2-and-1-and-croscore-testing.odt 06:30:58 <tagoh_> pravins: so similar issue should be there in croscore fonts too? 06:31:01 <pravins> on f18 Beta 06:31:07 <pravins> tagoh_: yes 06:31:51 <pravins> http://pravins.fedorapeople.org/liberation-fonts-ttf-1-07-2.tar.gz by installing this, we can have all fonts liberation2, croscore and liberation1 same time on system 06:33:52 <pravins> i think we should defer this feature consider wider liberation fonts use community and need for backward compatibility in hinting output. 06:34:14 <pravins> it means that we have to improve liberation 2.0 hinting output to match with liberation 1.0 06:34:31 <pravins> or add glyphs in liberation 1.0 06:35:48 <tagoh_> so you mean you are suggesting to revert the package or ship both? 06:36:38 <pravins> tagoh_: reverting looks good. Shipping both not required i think 06:37:47 <tagoh_> sure. then how to get feedback to liberation2? or plans to fix those issues. 06:37:57 <pravins> tagoh_: aha, valid point 06:38:12 <juhp> well guess upstream release will still be available at least 06:38:32 <pravins> yes, we should ship both then 06:38:41 <juhp> how? 06:38:44 <pravins> liberatoin 2.0 may be with name Liberation2 06:38:52 <pravins> bad name :( 06:39:09 <juhp> I wonder how Suse is doing it 06:39:46 <tagoh_> well, honestly I don't think that makes any difference in the situation. the users who are complaining to this may not use it at any rate. 06:40:32 <tagoh_> and the users who aren't complaining may not report anything as they are possibly comfortable with it 06:40:37 <pravins> https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=788838#c26 they are shipping with the bad name i suggestion :) 06:40:57 <mfabian> I also guess it is only a small minority of users complaining loudly. 06:41:58 <juhp> I see they have liberation2-fonts 06:42:47 <tagoh_> well, honestly I don't see any "rainbow" effect on the above kedit screenshot - I may be blind. 06:43:16 <pravins> yeah, even i do not agreed with rainbow effect 06:44:11 <mfabian> I see the rainbow effect in *both*, the old and the new. 06:44:41 <juhp> we could keep 2.0 in rawhide for now 06:44:46 <juhp> for testers 06:44:50 <tagoh_> it may depends on LCD? 06:44:53 <mfabian> Ilya writes: “* Due to subpixel smoothing this also creates an "rainbow" effect with colorful (reddish) play while the text in the text in the left window looks evenly black (in the both examples the subpixel smoothing is on).” 06:45:04 <mfabian> No way this is evenly black in the left window. 06:46:20 <juhp> tagoh_, do you have any scripts or recipies for generating screenshot comparison, or anyone? 06:46:27 <tagoh_> anyway, it sounds like very subjective to me though. 06:46:30 <mfabian> You can see it easier if you magnify it, for example with “xmag” 06:46:46 <mfabian> tagoh_: Yes, I also think this is subjective. 06:46:48 <juhp> it might still be worth querying fedora devel/test lists for more opinions 06:47:04 <pravins> juhp: i remember tagoh_ tried some script for autohinting output testing 06:47:19 <juhp> or we just plough ahead with 2.0 ?? 06:47:47 <juhp> pravins, problems are only at small sizes? 06:48:13 <pravins> juhp: output is bit thicker compate to 1.0 06:48:20 <tagoh_> pravins: yeah, it was to do taking a screenshot with a lot of fonts. it may depends on what we want to do here. not sure if it helps for just comparing two fonts. 06:48:21 <pravins> compare 06:48:27 <mfabian> For pointsize >= 18, there is very little difference. 06:48:32 <juhp> okay 06:48:58 <juhp> can some generate a cascade comparison for each family? 06:49:05 <juhp> someone 06:49:24 <tagoh_> waterfall rendering may helps for comparison and the amount of screenshots I suppose though 06:49:27 <mfabian> What is “cascade comparison”? 06:49:28 <pravins> mfabian: yes, above it difference is not notably 06:49:38 <juhp> yes waterfall 06:50:09 <juhp> mfabian, means descending over many sizes 06:50:18 <pravins> gnome-font-viewer gives it 06:50:28 <juhp> screenshot :) 06:50:47 <pravins> juhp: i am adding it, 1 min 06:50:59 <epico> `pango-view --waterfall -t test`? 06:51:12 <juhp> without enough information it is really hard for people to make any informed decision 06:51:25 <tagoh_> okay, well, spending a lot of time here.. apparently we don't have enough information to decide so far. 06:51:40 <tagoh_> maybe good to postpone the decision to the next meeting I guess 06:52:10 <juhp> sounds good - perhaps we may still consider reverting anyway if the new version is still too controversial 06:52:50 <juhp> for f18 06:53:05 <tagoh_> pravins: can you prepare more information for comparison, at least with things suggested above? 06:53:21 <pravins> http://pravins.fedorapeople.org/liberation/font-viewer-liberation-sans-2.png 06:53:26 <pravins> http://pravins.fedorapeople.org/liberation/font-viewer-liberationsans-1.png 06:53:32 <pravins> tagoh_: yes, i will do it today itself 06:53:58 <tagoh_> okay, then let's discuss it in the next meeting. 06:55:08 <tagoh_> #action pravins to prepare more information and screenshots to compare between liberation1 and liberation2 06:55:22 <tagoh_> #topic Open Floor 06:55:31 <tagoh_> well, just one topic from me 06:56:30 <dan408> okay one question, tagoh_ what's the plan for imsettings-mate? gunna drop it and go with imsettings-gnome? 06:57:03 <tagoh_> f19 schedule is in draft. current plan in draft for feature submission is set to Jan 29 next year. 06:57:34 * juhp feels this Liberation argument a little resembles Chinese users who prefer bitmap rendering at small sizes 06:58:02 <juhp> (which I personally find quite ugly but it is more readable I guess) 06:58:09 <tagoh_> dan408: no. I've pushed new version to updates-testing with gsettings support because MATE use different key and imsettings-gnome didn't work. 06:58:38 <tagoh_> dan408: no need to change anything in comps 06:59:46 <epico> juhp, yes 06:59:52 <tagoh_> dan408: as I filed a bug, mate-session-manager has a problem to run IM automatically. so need to do run imsettings-switch manually so far. 06:59:53 <dan408> tagoh_: thank you very much 07:00:06 <dan408> tagoh_: i saw that, trying to figure out what to do with it :) 07:00:09 <tagoh_> or do it with im-chooser 07:00:19 <dan408> we'll work together in the future. thanks! 07:00:23 <tagoh_> okay. thanks 07:00:29 <pravins> juhp: between two screenshot i have given above http://pravins.fedorapeople.org/liberation/font-viewer-liberation-sans-2.png http://pravins.fedorapeople.org/liberation/font-viewer-liberationsans-1.png it shows clearly that liberation2.0 make bit bold 07:00:58 <pravins> just make it fullscreen and change images 07:01:02 <tagoh_> anyway, it's good time to think about f19 features. 07:01:12 <juhp> yes 07:01:20 <tagoh_> we I'll remind it here later anyway. 07:01:26 <pravins> tagoh_: might be that can be one of the topic for next meeting 07:02:18 <tagoh_> yep. just bringing it up today so that it looks like we don't have so much time to think about. 07:02:52 <pravins> i will send you mail later, with screenshots for testing 07:03:13 <tagoh_> anything else prior to close the meeting? 07:04:34 <tagoh_> pravins: ah, are you talking about the above screenshots? sure, yeah, I think so :) 07:04:41 <pravins> tagoh_: yes 07:05:00 <tagoh_> okay, stop here today then. 07:05:06 <tagoh_> thanks everyone for the meeting! 07:05:12 <tagoh_> #endmeeting