16:01:02 <tflink> #startmeeting Fedora QA Meeting
16:01:02 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Feb 11 16:01:02 2013 UTC.  The chair is tflink. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:01:02 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:01:07 <tflink> #meetingname fedora-qa
16:01:07 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora-qa'
16:01:13 <tflink> #topic Roll Call
16:01:34 <tflink> #chair kparal
16:01:34 <zodbot> Current chairs: kparal tflink
16:02:18 * kparal waves
16:02:23 * satellit listening
16:02:29 * jskladan tips his hat
16:03:01 <dan408-> im not here
16:03:10 * kparal nudges pschindl
16:04:22 * tflink waits another minute before getting things started
16:05:40 <tflink> bit of a small group today but let's get started
16:05:56 <dan408-> no adamw?
16:06:13 <tflink> holiday in canada
16:06:21 <dan408-> snowboarding holiday
16:06:25 <kparal> adamw is slacking off
16:06:27 <dan408-> okay continue please
16:06:34 <tflink> and a public holiday, but either way
16:06:45 <tflink> #topic Previous Meeting Followup
16:07:06 * pschindl is here
16:07:40 <tflink> #info adamw to draft up a proposal for revising the presentation of the release criteria
16:08:11 <tflink> #info adamw has been working on the release criteria presentation, no proposal has been sent out yet. will be covered later in meeting
16:08:41 <tflink> #info adamw to draft up a kickstart criterion for f19
16:08:47 <tflink> I don't think this was done, either
16:09:25 <tflink> did I miss something?
16:09:32 <dan408-> nope
16:09:33 <dan408-> +1
16:10:02 <tflink> #info this hasn't been done yet
16:10:39 <tflink> anything else from meeting followup?
16:10:48 <tflink> I don't see anything from the minutes
16:11:29 * tflink assumes silence == nothing else
16:11:43 <tflink> #topic Criteria Revision
16:12:02 * Viking-Ice joins in
16:12:11 <dan408-> hello Viking-Ice
16:12:12 <tflink> We started the conversation a bit last week, but it sounded like there was general agreement that the presentation of the release criteria could be improved
16:12:51 <tflink> #info adamw has been working on a draft update to the presentation of the release criteria
16:13:00 <tflink> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Adamwill/Draft_alpha_criteria_sandbox
16:13:38 <kparal> interesting
16:13:51 <tflink> I don't think that he's done yet but it shows a re-thinking of the current presentation
16:13:54 <dan408-> where can we make suggestions here?
16:14:07 <kparal> dan408-: test list
16:14:12 <tflink> dan408-: test@
16:14:32 <tflink> it turns out that figuring out how to present the information is not an easy problem
16:14:34 <dan408-> sigh
16:15:00 <tflink> one thought that I had was to take the criteria out of the wiki so that we aren't restricted by wiki formatting
16:15:20 <dan408-> there's nothing wrong with the wiki
16:15:26 <dan408-> maybe we can use talk?
16:15:31 <dan408-> test is way too busty
16:15:37 <dan408-> i dont even pay attention to it
16:15:38 <Viking-Ice> tflink, yeah if we can put it on the qa criteria page you are working on
16:15:52 <dan408-> https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Adamwill/Draft_alpha_criteria_sandbox&action=edit&redlink=1
16:15:59 <tflink> I took a snapshot of what adamw was working on, translated it to rst and generated a really basic proof-of-concept
16:16:03 <Viking-Ice> I dont think nesting this is a way to go as adam is doing there
16:16:18 <tflink> #info tflink made a proof-of-concept of taking the release criteria out of the wiki
16:16:26 <tflink> #link http://tflink.fedorapeople.org/criteria_display/
16:16:35 <tflink> I haven't done _any_ theming or admonition work yet
16:16:37 <Viking-Ice> since it requires the user to perform additional click to get that information
16:16:41 <tflink> so the layout is really rough
16:16:59 <dan408-> this is prettier..
16:17:34 <tflink> but my thought is that it would allow for easier integration with the blocker proposal app, would give us _much_ more flexibility in presentation and wouldn't make it too much more difficult for people to contribute to the criteria writing
16:17:43 <kparal> I have some comments about it, but I think this would be best discussed on the list
16:18:03 <Viking-Ice> should really that many people be editing the criteria
16:18:32 <tflink> the whole thing would live in a git repository, criteria revisions could be discussed like code reviews and the static html would be generated automatically on push to git master
16:18:35 <Viking-Ice> tflink, your page is better presented then what adam has been working on
16:19:00 <tflink> the question becomes how long it would take to translate everything
16:19:16 <Viking-Ice> should it really be translated ?
16:19:21 <tflink> but either way, we need to figure out how to present the information
16:19:30 <tflink> Viking-Ice: translation from mediawiki to rst
16:19:40 <tflink> poor choice of words on my part, sorry
16:19:49 <Viking-Ice> ok took it as language translation
16:20:05 <tflink> yeah, I should have phrased it differently
16:20:18 <tflink> one thought was to talk with the design team about how to present the information
16:21:40 <kparal> I don't think we need the design team for everything. this page should be mainly useful for us, because general users/testers won't read it anyway
16:21:57 <kparal> we should have a simplified version for them, and _that_ could be discussed with the design team
16:22:15 <tflink> I'm jumping around a bit but the main concern that I have about moving the criteria out of the wiki is the time needed to write all the templates/css and the work needed to set up reviews and the automatic generation of html
16:22:36 <kparal> tflink: how do you imagine the review process?
16:23:14 <tflink> kparal: agreed, but I also think that it would be good to see if we can get some outside ideas on how to present the information in a relatively easy-to-read fashion
16:23:31 <Viking-Ice> tabs?
16:23:34 <tflink> if we want people to cite criteria when proposing blockers, they need to be relatively easy to understand
16:23:45 <tflink> kparal: reviewboard
16:24:08 <kparal> that's yet another project to polish :)
16:24:15 <tflink> I finished setting up a reviewboard instance that we're using for the blocker tracking app
16:24:36 <tflink> it will do email notifications of code reviews on top of supporting inline and overall comments
16:24:46 <kparal> great
16:24:57 <tflink> the only thing it doesn't do is integrate with FAS
16:25:11 <tflink> and that's due to lack of support for openid upstream
16:25:13 <Viking-Ice> but so we are clear we are only talking about revisiting the presentation of the criteria not the criteria itself ?
16:25:22 <Viking-Ice> that topic can be a bit misleading
16:25:23 <tflink> Viking-Ice: at the moment, yes
16:25:50 <tflink> I assume that's what adamw had in mind when he wrote the agenda, anyways
16:26:04 <kparal> if we don't have FAS integration, we can use github comments, for instance. is there any further benefit of reviewboard?
16:26:37 <tflink> #info as a clarification, this topic is about the presentation of the release criteria, not revising the criteria themselfs
16:27:01 <tflink> kparal: I'd really rather not rely on github if we don't have to but it sounds like I might about the only one who thinks that
16:27:21 * kparal shrugs
16:27:27 <Viking-Ice> no we should keep this inhouse
16:27:33 <kparal> it might be easier than to maintain another app
16:27:47 <tflink> kparal: yeah, it would be
16:27:57 <kparal> if github explodes, it doesn't hurt much
16:28:15 <tflink> and it's not like we would be the only ones doing it - pretty much all of fedora infra is on github now
16:28:32 <Viking-Ice> interesting
16:28:32 <kparal> except some of the past discussion could be inaccessible
16:28:35 <tflink> kparal: it's still a hosted service outside our control and not open source
16:29:13 <kparal> I don't have a clear opinion on this, I just sometimes feel like having a NIH syndrome
16:29:17 <misc> tflink: mhh, no, I think the fedora infra is still in house
16:29:25 <akshayvyas> oops i am late :-(
16:29:52 <misc> ( and pushing stuff to git hub make it more complex since this is not tied to FAS )
16:29:59 <tflink> misc: I'm pretty sure they moved everything after FUDCon Lawrence
16:30:21 <tflink> https://github.com/fedora-infra
16:30:23 <kparal> misc: yeah, that's true
16:30:35 <tflink> to clarify, I mean most of the apps that fedora infra uses
16:30:36 <nirik> we did not move everything. ;) We allowed projects that wished to use it to use it.
16:30:51 <tflink> nirik: outside of koji, which projects didn't move?
16:31:53 <tflink> but I digress a little bit
16:32:45 <kparal> tflink:  I think you should post the links (when it's somewhat ready) to test list, there will  be surely lots of interesting comments
16:32:47 <nirik> lots of things I'm sure. I don't have a list.
16:33:09 <tflink> #info one large concern about moving the criteria out of the wiki is the theming work and the work needed to re-generate the HTML on git push
16:33:39 <tflink> #info both reviewboard and github are possibilities for reviewing criteria changes if we moved out of the wiki
16:34:14 <tflink> either way, we wouldn't be the first group that did stuff outside of fedorahosted
16:35:09 <tflink> kparal: yeah, I imagine that there would be some interesting discussion around any proposed changes
16:35:19 <kparal> :)
16:35:59 <tflink> but we don't have a whole lot of time left before F19
16:36:28 <tflink> any other thoughts on this for today or is it OK to move on to the next topic?
16:36:32 <kparal> proposal: let's skip testing F19 and hack on infra instead
16:36:51 <kparal> let's move on
16:36:53 <tflink> kparal: as much as I'd like to +1000 that ...
16:37:10 <tflink> #topic Fedora 19 Test Days
16:37:28 <tflink> now that the F19 schedule has been accepted, we have test days to organize
16:37:48 <tflink> organize/oversee/whatever-you-want-to-call-it
16:38:23 <tflink> is anyone interested in volunteering to coordinate the F19 test days?
16:39:18 <tflink> don't everyone volunteer at the same time :-P
16:39:40 <kparal> this is something I don't really enjoy :)
16:39:53 <Viking-Ice> just ensure all the *D
16:39:54 * tflink hears a volunteer :-D
16:40:02 <Viking-Ice> just ensure all the *DE testing takes place after alpha
16:40:05 <tflink> any ideas for test days that haven't already been proposed?
16:40:24 <tflink> I think that KDE and GNOME test days have already been requested for F19
16:40:45 <Viking-Ice> I'm just referring to the schedule
16:40:59 <Viking-Ice> I'm planning on hosting a iscsi test day
16:41:21 <Viking-Ice> we fully migrated it to systemd sometime before christmas
16:41:22 <tflink> power management and NM test days have also been requested
16:42:16 <tflink> #info Viking-Ice suggested an iscsi test day
16:43:10 <tflink> if there's nothing else, we can move on
16:43:48 <Viking-Ice> tflink, I did not suggest I *will* be hosting a iscsi test day
16:44:07 <tflink> #undo
16:44:07 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0xb87ed50>
16:44:23 <tflink> #info Viking-Ice will be hosting an iscsi test day
16:44:41 <Viking-Ice> date scheduled on later date ;)
16:44:49 <tflink> #undo
16:44:49 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0xba8ced0>
16:45:01 <tflink> #info Viking-Ice will be hosting an iscsi test day. Exact date TBD and proposed later
16:45:12 <tflink> ok, anything else on this?
16:45:32 <Viking-Ice> we need to test "enterprise storage" in anaconda it's expected to be back ( gui wize if I'm not mistaken (
16:45:36 <Viking-Ice> uhum )
16:45:39 <Viking-Ice> ;)
16:45:51 <Viking-Ice> this release cycle
16:46:00 <tflink> Viking-Ice: yeah but that's hard to do in a test day - few people have access to "enterprise storage"
16:46:27 <tflink> well, access to "enterprise storage" they can test fedora installs with
16:46:40 <Viking-Ice> puff how does not have a san rack at home
16:46:41 <Viking-Ice> ;)
16:47:09 * tflink hasn't touched a SAN since his days in storage testing
16:47:22 <Viking-Ice> nirik, what kind of storage infrastructure does infra have
16:47:34 <Viking-Ice> local disk only or something more "advanced"
16:47:54 <tflink> mostly netapp filers, I think but testing fedora installs in the fedora infra sounds like a really bad idea to me
16:48:01 <nirik> we have local disk/lvm and some iscsi stuff. Nothing too odd
16:48:40 <Viking-Ice> tflink, why is that a bad idea?
16:49:09 <tflink> Viking-Ice: what part of testing installs of a pre-release OS on production infrastructure doesn't sound like a bad idea?
16:49:52 <Viking-Ice> tflink, hows exporting an empty share to on an pre-release os
16:50:13 <Viking-Ice> it's not like they would export something with mission critical data on it to the clients
16:50:29 <Viking-Ice> just and empty filesystem/partition
16:50:40 <Viking-Ice> s/and/an
16:51:41 <nirik> we possibly could, but don't want it to interfere with any production setups... would have to look if we have spare/isolated space for such a thing
16:51:47 <tflink> that's a discussion you/we can have with infra, if they're OK with it, I'm not going to stop attempts - I'm just really cautious about addressing storage
16:52:04 * nirik nods. I don't want prod interfered with.
16:52:10 * tflink has seen far too many "enterprise" storage systems explode
16:52:37 <tflink> but we digress
16:52:52 <tflink> this is a discussion that can happen outside of the meeting, on test@ and with infra
16:53:01 <jsmith> tflink: :-)
16:53:02 <tflink> since we're almost out of time ...
16:53:17 <tflink> #topic Fedora 18 Retrospective
16:53:30 <tflink> This is something that we haven't talked about too much post-F18
16:53:43 <tflink> a few things have been added to the retrospective page
16:53:46 <Viking-Ice> it's simply really never do anaconda/upgrade rewrites again
16:53:53 <tflink> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_18_QA_Retrospective
16:54:49 <tflink> Viking-Ice: while I don't think that we'll see another major rewrite like that anytime soon, I don't think it's as simple as "never rewrite again"
16:55:02 <tflink> just go about doing it differently _if_ it ever happens again
16:55:54 <tflink> but either way, constructive additions to that page would be appreciated
16:55:56 <Viking-Ice> tflink, no really if anaconda needs another rewrite in the distant future it should just be thrown away altogther and replaced with something written from scratch
16:56:15 <tflink> Viking-Ice: I don't see how it's our place to tell devs what to do
16:56:34 * satellit require install on hardware plus in Virtualiztion
16:56:36 <Viking-Ice> tflink, it is when their mess ends up at our door step ;)
16:56:38 <tflink> #info Constructive additions to the retrospective are appreciated
16:56:51 <jsmith> Viking-Ice: Most of the anaconda code *has* been rewritten from scratch
16:56:59 <Viking-Ice> hurray!
16:57:09 <tflink> Viking-Ice: we'd be naive to pretend that it was all their fault
16:57:18 <tflink> there is plenty of blame to go around
16:57:22 <tflink> blame/fault
16:57:28 <Viking-Ice> fesco has the other half
16:57:47 <tflink> but blamestorming doesn't help anything
16:57:51 <Viking-Ice> in anycase "I wish, that f18 alpha was not declared GOLD, knowing that it will destroy data, by default. Even after such a decision was made, i wish the announcement informed us clearly that f18alpha *will destroy data*, and not wait one more week until the release notes become available. "
16:58:30 <Viking-Ice> I thought it was common knowledge that pre-release testing did make the requirement to throw away their current installs at release time
16:58:33 <tflink> #info Constructive additions to the retrospective page would be appreciated, tickets will be created from retrospective items shortly
16:59:25 <tflink> Viking-Ice: I don't see that on the retrospective, where did it come from?
16:59:47 <Viking-Ice> it's there straight under "Could have been better"
16:59:59 <tflink> oh, I skipped over it due to formatting
17:00:42 <Viking-Ice> the rest seem to be just adamw with criteria bits which we are already working at and Wutao85 with personal retrospective
17:01:05 <Viking-Ice> as in himself could do better at replying to bugs
17:01:06 <tflink> hence the request for more ideas :)
17:01:20 <tflink> anyhow, we're over time already
17:01:33 <tflink> anything else that people want to cover re: F18 retrospective
17:01:35 <tflink> ?
17:02:07 <Viking-Ice> well what did we learn about the blocker bug meetings
17:02:28 <tflink> that we didn't already know before F18?
17:02:33 <tflink> they don't scale all that well
17:02:45 <tflink> but the hope is that F18 was very much an outlier
17:03:15 <Viking-Ice> well we should set a fixed channel and keep with the 3hour max limit
17:03:38 <Viking-Ice> we kinda ended up doing that
17:03:59 <tflink> sure, but I think that the blocker review process is a little outside the F18 QA retrospective
17:04:07 <tflink> especially when we're already over time
17:04:32 * tflink isn't trying to say that the process is perfect or that it shouldn't be discussed
17:04:46 <Viking-Ice> yeah sure whatever fits your meeting needs
17:05:07 * satellit added comment to retrospective
17:05:48 <tflink> #info discussion around the blocker review process for F19 would be wise before we get into testing
17:06:10 <tflink> #topic Open Floor
17:06:32 <tflink> Anything else that should be discussed today?
17:06:35 <satellit> when will koji try again for lives?
17:06:58 <tflink> I think there were some problems with rawhide over the weekend
17:07:22 <tflink> something about getting comps, I think but I didn't read the details
17:07:50 <tflink> either way, I'm not sure what the decision was regarding the frequency of rawhide compose attempts
17:07:54 * nirik restarted rawhide compose for today, should land in a few hours.
17:07:56 <tflink> does anyone else know what the plan is?
17:08:07 <satellit> thanks
17:08:18 <tflink> s/else//
17:08:26 <nirik> lives I can do after that. for install there was talk of doing weekly... but thats not yet started that I know of.
17:09:25 <tflink> I think that dgilmore was working with anaconda devs when they requested a compose
17:09:29 <satellit> FYI I installed anaconda from http://kojipkgs.fedoraproject.org//work/tasks/2340/4912340/Fedora-19-Nightly-20130129.10-x86_64-Live-xfce.iso
17:10:10 <tflink> anyhow, if there are no other topics, I'll set the fuse for ~ 5 minutes
17:10:26 <Viking-Ice> yeah it kinda serves no purpose to start composing images until anaconda says go
17:10:46 * nirik nods
17:10:48 <tflink> Viking-Ice: IIRC, they were one of the groups requesting rawhide composes
17:11:35 <Viking-Ice> yup
17:14:19 <tflink> Thanks for coming, everyone!
17:14:27 <tflink> #endmeeting