06:03:58 <tagoh_> #startmeeting i18n
06:03:58 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Nov  6 06:03:58 2013 UTC.  The chair is tagoh_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
06:03:58 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
06:03:58 <tagoh_> #meetingname i18n
06:03:58 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'i18n'
06:03:59 <tagoh_> #topic agenda and roll call
06:04:00 <tagoh_> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/I18N/Meetings/2013-11-06
06:04:06 <tagoh_> okay, shall we have i18n meeting now
06:04:13 <anish_> Hi!
06:04:17 <dueno> hi
06:04:24 <epico> hi
06:04:37 <dramsey> :)
06:04:51 <mfabian> Hi
06:05:57 <juhp> hi
06:07:59 <skore> hi
06:09:04 <tagoh_> okay let's get started then
06:09:18 <tagoh_> #topic Upcoming schedule
06:09:19 <tagoh_> #info 2013-11-12        Beta Release
06:09:19 <tagoh_> #info 2013-12-03        Final Change Deadline
06:09:20 <tagoh_> #info 2013-12-17        Fedora 20 Final Release
06:09:49 <tagoh_> final change deadline and release date isn't yet approved by FESCo but anyway
06:10:45 <tagoh_> #topic Outstanding task
06:10:46 <tagoh_> #info #23: Fedora 20 i18n test day (i18n@lists.fedoraproject.org)
06:10:46 <tagoh_> #link https://fedorahosted.org/i18n/ticket/23
06:11:38 <tagoh_> well, as we talked last meeting, I've updated the ticket as the interim report for result of i18n test day
06:12:41 <tagoh_> #info the number of attendees for input (overall): 12
06:12:41 <tagoh_> #info the number of tested languages: 8(+1) - as-in, bn-in, ja-jp, or-in, pa-in, ta-in, te-in, zh-cn, general
06:12:59 <tagoh_> #info 3 bugs reported
06:13:07 <tagoh_> .bug 1019674
06:13:10 <zodbot> tagoh_: Bug 1019674 input method switching does not work in cinnamon - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1019674
06:13:10 <tagoh_> .bug 1006920
06:13:15 <zodbot> tagoh_: Bug 1006920 [abrt] gnome-settings-daemon-3.9.91.1-1.fc20: gcm_session_client_connect_cb: Process /usr/libexec/gnome-settings-daemon was killed by signal 11 (SIGSEGV) - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1006920
06:13:45 <tagoh_> maybe not in bz this one? "The default initial font set up by LibreOffice? writer is different from expected Lohit Tamil, So the input is not working properly untill manually I set the font to Lohit Tamil"
06:14:58 <juhp> there was some bz I saw also for mr_IN for libreoffice
06:15:06 <tagoh_> #info the number of attendees for input (lang-specific): 10
06:15:06 <tagoh_> #info the number of tested languages: 7 - as-in, bn-in, ja-jp, or-in, ta-in, te-in, zh-cn
06:15:07 <tagoh_> #info 4 bugs reported
06:15:14 <juhp> I moved it to lohit-marathi-fonts yesterday
06:15:14 <tagoh_> .bug 1024061
06:15:17 <tagoh_> .bug 1024067
06:15:21 <tagoh_> .bug 1024421
06:15:21 <zodbot> tagoh_: Bug 1024061 ibus-kkc: A change of the pagination_start option in the setup tool is not applied immediately - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1024061
06:15:29 <zodbot> tagoh_: Bug 1024067 ibus-kkc is enabled in the password entry field of the lock screen - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1024067
06:15:36 <zodbot> tagoh_: Bug 1024421 ibus-kkc has problems when capslock is hit after conversion has started - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1024421
06:15:46 <tagoh_> maybe not in bz:  (or-in)"ibus sometimes not working. Not getting Oriya input, After switching to Oriya. To get it resolved I've to restart the application."
06:16:34 <tagoh_> #info the number of attendees for rendering: 7
06:16:34 <tagoh_> #info the number of tested languages: 6 - as-in, bn-in, ja-jp, ta-in, te-in, zh-cn
06:16:35 <tagoh_> #info 5 bugs reported?
06:17:08 <tagoh_> (zh-cn)"can't open ​http://utrrs-testing.rhcloud.com/"
06:17:09 <tagoh_> (te-in)"Browser rendering is good for the content present in the body. But in the input/text boxes bottom part not visible completely for conjuncts"
06:17:10 <tagoh_> (te-in)"In firefox Delete button is not deleting entire conjunct."
06:17:11 <tagoh_> (te-in)"In Libreoffice writer space between characters is not proper hence characters overlapping."
06:17:56 <tagoh_> #info the number of attendees for printing: 6
06:17:56 <tagoh_> #info the number of tested languages: 5 - as-in, ja-jp, ta-in, te-in, zh-cn
06:17:57 <tagoh_> #info no issues reported
06:18:38 <tagoh_> #info the number of attendees for other: 4
06:18:38 <tagoh_> #info the number of tested languages: 3 - as-in, ja-jp, ta-in
06:18:39 <tagoh_> #info 2 bugs reported
06:18:51 <tagoh_> (ja-jp)"yum langinfo only lists langpacks for installed packages"
06:18:55 <tagoh_> .bug 1024656
06:18:58 <zodbot> tagoh_: Bug 1024656 no langpack picked up on updating - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1024656
06:19:00 <tagoh_> that's it
06:19:13 <tagoh_> juhp: aha
06:19:24 <tagoh_> juhp: do you have a bug#?
06:19:46 <juhp> hang on
06:20:19 <juhp> hmm
06:20:23 <juhp> no :(
06:20:27 <tagoh_> and all, any comments for those which may not be yet filed?
06:20:27 <juhp> pravins, any idea?
06:21:53 <tagoh_> anyway, in either case that looks like needing more details to reproduce
06:22:50 <pravins> hi
06:23:18 <tagoh_> dunno if I have a contact for those testers. so will try to send a mail to the list for filing those bugs
06:24:33 <lijli> tagoh_, still getting start the testing, will ping you if have some bugs, seems a little bit late?
06:24:57 <tagoh_> lijli: not late. thanks for testing.
06:25:16 <juhp> ah pravins reassigned it to libreoffice
06:25:19 <juhp> 1025711
06:25:22 <juhp> .bug 1025711
06:25:26 <zodbot> juhp: Bug 1025711 [mr_IN] Improper rendering when user enters marathi input in search box in libre office applications. - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1025711
06:25:47 <pravins> juhp: yeah, that looks problem with refreshing text content
06:25:54 <juhp> aha
06:26:33 <pravins> rendering is fine but some part of text appears invisible
06:26:37 * juhp wishes "fedora bugzilla" didn't download all components on a bug page by default
06:26:58 * juhp adds i18n Keyword
06:27:00 <tagoh_> similar issue for Tamil?
06:28:24 <tagoh_> anything else for test day?
06:29:28 <tagoh_> ah, well, for those who aren't yet trying, I'd encourage you to do that. and for those who aren't yet updating, please update with your result.
06:30:12 <tagoh_> hopefully we'll see more attendees and languages in the results
06:30:55 <lijli> juhp, tagoh_ also good to tracking the the fedora bugs via adding i18n/Translation Keyword to bugzilla
06:31:24 <juhp> yes
06:31:27 <lijli> and avoid the duplicate
06:32:00 <tagoh_> lijli: true. will update the wiki with it later. thanks for suggestion
06:32:01 <lijli> better can someone help to update it to the guide wiki page?
06:32:14 <lijli> tagoh_, nps, thanks
06:33:28 <tagoh_> if not, let's move on
06:33:52 <tagoh_> #topic Outstanding topics
06:33:52 <tagoh_> #info #26: proposal: move to using IMEs for ASCII/Latin input
06:33:52 <tagoh_> #link https://fedorahosted.org/i18n/ticket/26
06:34:00 <tagoh_> juhp: any updates?
06:34:27 <juhp> I just posted my summary now to the ticket!
06:34:41 <juhp> so if you refresh hopefully you can see it
06:34:50 <tagoh_> ah, thanks!
06:36:11 <juhp> though 2 more meetings also covered will add those shortly
06:36:18 <juhp> (from the end of last month)
06:36:46 <juhp> just looking at it there seems quite a lot of things to pull apart and think more on
06:37:09 <tagoh_> and need to clarify the scope a bit more too?
06:37:12 <juhp> I think I should move it to wiki page and structure it more
06:37:18 <juhp> I suppose so
06:37:20 <tagoh_> okay
06:37:24 <tagoh_> yep, sounds good
06:37:46 <juhp> but did I miss any points from the earlier discussion?
06:39:00 <tagoh_> mfabian: any comments?
06:39:12 <juhp> some of main pieces I am seeing are:
06:39:28 <juhp> - more use of kbd layout meta-data
06:39:45 <juhp> - need for ibus input mode icon
06:40:13 <mfabian> tagoh_: no idea for comments at the moment.
06:40:38 <juhp> how is the schedule for gnome 3.12?
06:40:48 <juhp> or 3.11
06:41:40 <juhp> https://wiki.gnome.org/ThreePointEleven/
06:42:43 <tagoh_> the end of March next year?
06:44:27 <tagoh_> a bit late to propose any features for 3.12 perhaps? dunno
06:45:06 <juhp> dunno if this counts as a new feature
06:45:09 <juhp> yes
06:45:32 <juhp> perhaps we even might need to target gnome 3.14
06:45:52 <juhp> or perhaps some initial work could be done this time dunno
06:46:16 <tagoh_> maybe. anyway we need to have a consensus for this feature before talking to gnome people about it
06:46:46 <mfabian> I reported 2 bugs about that ime indicator in gnome recently.
06:47:07 <juhp> okay let me move it to a wiki page and try to structure the ideas more
06:48:09 <tagoh_> juhp: sure. so shall we start a discussion based on it in next meeting then?
06:48:18 <juhp> okay
06:50:02 <tagoh_> okay, let's move on then.
06:50:08 <tagoh_> #info #25: Bugs Corner (i18n@lists.fedoraproject.org)
06:50:08 <tagoh_> #link https://fedorahosted.org/i18n/ticket/25
06:50:28 <tagoh_> any bugs we want to share/discuss today?
06:51:17 <epico> . bug 919861
06:51:21 <zodbot> epico: Bug 919861 "/etc/fonts/conf.d/65-wqy-zenhei.conf" is forcing Chinese locale user to use font "WenQuanYi Zen Hei" for non-Chinese characters. - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=919861
06:51:32 <mfabian> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=711000 <- maybe that bug would cause a problem when there is only one input source (only kkc), because then one cannot switch to another input source and back.
06:52:35 <tagoh_> mfabian: aha
06:53:14 <pravins> juhp: summary on ticket looks good now
06:53:21 <epico> how about to try to prepend an English font by tweaking dejavu-sans-fonts?
06:53:23 <juhp> thanks
06:54:26 <juhp> mfabian, okay but that is bug :)
06:54:28 <tagoh_> epico: how? can you explain more?
06:55:59 <mfabian> juhp: Yes, that is just a bug of course, which should be fixed. But maybe your idea makes it a little bit more important to fix that bug.
06:56:03 <epico> tagoh_, http://pwu.fedorapeople.org/fonts/pango/32-dejavu.conf
06:56:12 <juhp> mfabian, yeah
06:56:26 <epico> I think I can disable it by default, but mention it to users.
06:56:39 <epico> if he wants, he can enable it.
06:59:07 <tagoh_> epico: well, as I said in the comment earlier, this is a kinda application bug I'd say. it would be if it claims "wqy fonts is used for non Chinese *locale*", but not *characters*. only applications knows what characters they are requesting a font to render for.
07:00:02 <tagoh_> epico: that may works in some cases, but may makes a problem in some cases as well.
07:00:36 <epico> tagoh_, yes, that is why I want to disable it by default. the users can enable it, then report bugs...
07:00:59 <tagoh_> epico: you could introduce that workaround for the reporter but looks not the right direction to fix. better reassigning to the problematic application instead.
07:01:00 <epico> or disable it, it will benefits gnome mostly.
07:01:32 <mfabian> epico: why does that benefit gnome mostly?
07:01:50 <epico> tagoh_, that user uses gnome, gnome can handle the font fall back mechanism.
07:02:09 <epico> http://pwu.fedorapeople.org/fonts/pango/before%20change.png
07:02:14 <epico> http://pwu.fedorapeople.org/fonts/pango/after%20change.png
07:03:33 <epico> tagoh_, maybe pango?
07:03:49 <tagoh_> epico: known issue yes
07:03:59 <epico> okay, I see
07:04:10 <epico> known issue...
07:07:20 <tagoh_> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=481210
07:07:22 <tagoh_> maybe this one
07:07:37 <epico> thanks
07:07:56 <mfabian> By the way, while trying to reproduce the mr and or rendering problems in the search box in libreoffice, I found that pasting with the middle mouse button from the main buffer to the search box often looses some characters (C-c C-v works). Is pasting with middle mouse supposed to work? I.e. is that a bug?
07:08:39 <juhp> hmm
07:09:05 <tagoh_> I suppose that should works
07:09:19 <mfabian> tagoh_: Then I’ll report it ...
07:09:19 <juhp> sounds like a bug
07:09:28 <tagoh_> juhp: yeah
07:10:28 <tagoh_> okay, anything else?
07:11:46 <mfabian> Ah, I have a question about sd
07:12:07 <mfabian> $ locale -a | grep ^sd
07:12:08 <mfabian> sd_IN
07:12:08 <mfabian> sd_IN.utf8
07:12:08 <mfabian> sd_IN.utf8@devanagari
07:12:11 <mfabian> sd_IN@devanagari
07:12:14 <mfabian> 
07:12:16 <mfabian> Which one should be default?
07:12:20 <mfabian> Devanagari script?
07:13:02 <juhp> pravins, ?
07:13:09 <mfabian> $ LANG=sd_IN.UTF-8 date
07:13:09 <mfabian> ٻُڌرُ نومبر  6 08:12:30 CET 2013
07:13:09 <mfabian> 
07:13:16 <mfabian> $ LANG=sd_IN.UTF-8@devanagari date
07:13:17 <mfabian> ॿुधरू नवंबरू  6 08:12:47 CET 2013
07:13:17 <mfabian> 
07:14:03 <mfabian> sd-inscript.mim and sd-inscript2-deva.mim both use devanagari
07:16:43 <tagoh_> default may be where sd_IN points to?
07:17:13 <mfabian> I mean which locale should be choosen by default if the user selects Sindhi in anaconda.
07:17:38 <mfabian> sd_IN.UTF-8 (which uses Arabic script) or sd_IN.UTF-8@devanagari (which uses devanagari script)
07:17:39 <anish_> not sure whether sindhi is written using Devanagari
07:18:09 <mfabian> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindhi_language says both Arabic script and Devanagari script is possible.
07:18:27 <juhp> I have a feeling it might be close call
07:18:40 <juhp> yeah
07:18:51 <mfabian> Arabic seems more common, but the only input methods we have use devanagari.
07:18:57 <juhp> hmm
07:19:11 <mfabian> Maybe that is because for Arabic script, a keyboard layout is sufficient? I am not sure.
07:19:18 <juhp> could be
07:19:37 <juhp> Pravin might know more - iirc he created the locale
07:19:39 <mfabian> I just started wondering about that when adding the default input method information to langtable.
07:19:48 <juhp> aha!
07:19:50 <juhp> nice
07:20:10 <juhp> mfabian, maybe all else failing default to Arabic?  dunno
07:20:36 <mfabian> Copied "m17n:sd:inscript" as the default input method from gnome, noticed that this uses devanagari but the current default locale for Sindhi in langtable uses Arabic, which might be not nice.
07:20:57 <pravins> mfabian: Arabic should be default
07:21:02 <juhp> in the long term such cases might need to be split perhaps - probably can worry more about it later
07:21:11 <pravins> Official script as per Govt of India is Arabic
07:21:16 <juhp> aha
07:21:23 <pravins> Still there is number of people uses Devanagari for this Sindhi language
07:21:24 <mfabian> Does it make sense to have "m17n:sd:inscript" as a default input method then?
07:21:54 <pravins> mfabian: problem from our side is, we do not have much resources for Arabic
07:22:01 <mfabian> Should an Arabic keyboard layout be used by default for Sindhi?
07:22:27 <pravins> it should be as per locale, right?
07:22:46 <juhp> I guess Urdu uses Arabic - does it have its own layout/map?
07:23:03 <pravins> yes, Urdu does have
07:23:15 <juhp> mfabian, or maybe in long term need choice
07:23:33 <mfabian> Yes, maybe there should be 2 choices for Sindhi in langtable.
07:23:47 <pravins> mfabian: yeah, one for Arabic and one for Devanagari
07:23:49 <tagoh_> wouldn't be the problem rather it is just a variant of sd_IN locale? do we support the variant?
07:23:53 <mfabian> Just like for Serbian, which can be written in Latin or Cyrillic script.
07:23:59 <juhp> yes
07:24:13 <pravins> yes, this is generic case for most of the locales
07:24:40 <pravins> so we should define one protocol for this
07:24:59 <pravins> in gnome language selection, if particular language has translations it get listed there
07:25:17 <pravins> else gnome language selection does not list it
07:25:21 <pravins> likewise something?
07:25:34 <mfabian> We have very little translations for Sindhi, apparently.
07:27:25 <pravins> mfabian: yeah, not active community around it :(
07:28:14 <tagoh_> if we have a task to do something for this, maybe good to have a milestone for future release of fedora perhaps?
07:29:15 <pravins> mfabian: yeah, i think we need policy for this
07:29:41 <pravins> i think we need to list locales in both scripts..
07:30:22 <mfabian> Yes, I’ll do it the same way as for Serbian then. I didn’t notice until now, as there are no translations yet, anaconda does not list it anyway at the moment.
07:31:26 <pravins> yes
07:33:18 <tagoh_> maybe good to discuss more as separate topic if necessary
07:33:40 <tagoh_> #topic Open Floor
07:34:22 <tagoh_> running out of time. so let's stop here if no urgent
07:36:17 <tagoh_> okay
07:36:19 <tagoh_> thanks everyone for the meeting!
07:36:23 <dramsey> Great meeting.  ;)
07:36:24 <dramsey> :)  tagoh_ , thank you for chairing and sending positive Fedora energy to everyone's computers now.  :)
07:36:40 <tagoh_> #endmeeting