16:04:18 <roshi> #startmeeting Fedora QA Meeting
16:04:18 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Jan 20 16:04:18 2014 UTC.  The chair is roshi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:04:18 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:04:22 <handsome_pirate> Speaking of, I hear he's the head honcho of qa at ansible these days
16:04:38 <roshi> handsome_pirate: does first time count as practice?
16:04:52 <handsome_pirate> roshi:  Indeed
16:04:52 <roshi> #meetingname fedora-qa
16:04:52 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora-qa'
16:05:03 <adamw> roshi: top tip: i usually copy/paste the commands out of the previous week's log
16:05:09 <roshi> ah
16:05:20 <roshi> #topic Roll Call
16:05:30 <handsome_pirate> tflink:  btw, you going to be around post-meeting?
16:05:32 <Viking-Ice> handsome_pirate, jlaska ?
16:05:39 <handsome_pirate> Viking-Ice:  Indeed
16:05:40 * tflink is here
16:05:45 * adamw is here
16:05:45 * mkrizek is here
16:05:49 * nonamedotc is here
16:05:52 * satellit is listening
16:05:53 <Viking-Ice> handsome_pirate, I thought he just moved internally within RH
16:06:02 * kparal here
16:06:05 <Viking-Ice> ended up with anaconda or something
16:06:14 <tflink> roshi: adding someone else as #chair is generally a good idea in case you get disconnected
16:06:16 * handsome_pirate is, quite obviously, not here; he is, in fact, in another dimension.  However, he does have his towel
16:06:18 * pschindl is still here :)
16:06:27 <roshi> getting there, reading :)
16:06:27 <handsome_pirate> Viking-Ice:  You're thinking of wwoods
16:06:36 <roshi> #chair adamw handsome_pirate
16:06:36 <zodbot> Current chairs: adamw handsome_pirate roshi
16:07:09 <roshi> #topic Previous Meeting Followup
16:07:30 * handsome_pirate will be right back; duty calls
16:07:50 <roshi> *adamw to summarize the discussion for a fesco ticket note on https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1198
16:07:50 * Martix is here
16:08:38 <Viking-Ice> the EOL process for F18 is out now so they should just punt this
16:09:02 <Viking-Ice> which allows us move forwards with the future of triagers
16:09:33 <spstarr_work> hello
16:09:51 <adamw> I did that, and posted the note
16:10:14 <adamw> https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1198#comment:24
16:10:44 <adamw> Viking-Ice: jlaska moved into the cloud for a bit, then left RH last year. wwoods still works on anaconda.
16:10:57 <roshi> #info adamw posted a summary discussion to the fesco ticket
16:11:07 <roshi> #link https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1198#comment:24
16:11:40 <roshi> anything else for this?
16:11:45 <adamw> you don't need to do #links, btw
16:11:54 <adamw> meetbot will automatically extract any URL as a summary item
16:11:54 <roshi> ok
16:12:12 <roshi> moving on to Keyboard layout release criteria proposal
16:12:16 <roshi> #topic Keyboard layout release criteria proposal
16:12:52 <spstarr_work> (why would anyone want to leave RH :P)
16:12:57 <roshi> adams proposal here: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/test/2014-January/120053.html
16:12:58 <Viking-Ice> lol
16:13:29 <adamw> spstarr_work: all the evil gets tiring after a while
16:13:34 <spstarr_work> :)
16:13:36 <adamw> spstarr_work: waking up, microwaving some puppies...
16:13:38 <Viking-Ice> did that one get accepted and given our previous history we will just change that later
16:13:39 <spstarr_work> back on topic...
16:13:40 <spstarr_work> heh
16:14:17 <adamw> Viking-Ice: it looks like everyone's on board, i just like to stick a topic for any pending proposals at the weekly meeting in case someone had some notes
16:15:06 <Viking-Ice> depend if this wg nonsense goes forward we need to rework the criteria around base  anyway so we can just move forwards as normally then adjust it later
16:15:11 <Viking-Ice> of required
16:15:34 <jreznik> sorry, missed the beginning - for EOL, I prefer punting now but in case FESCO would want ombudsman - are were any strong objections from QA? as it could be some burden for you, someone would have to triage it and I agree with Viking-Ice - as part of some triagers reborn
16:15:53 <jreznik> could be revisit end of this meeting, sorry for interruption
16:16:01 <roshi> no worries jreznik
16:16:01 <Viking-Ice> we need firm SOP propsal for it
16:16:11 <Viking-Ice> then anyone with enough free time can just jump on it and do it
16:16:32 <roshi> ok, so we're good for updating the criteria
16:16:58 <adamw> yeah, it sounds like no-one minds the proposal, so i'll go ahead and put it out soon
16:17:05 <roshi> #info There was general consensus on the revised criteria for Keyboard layout proposed by adamw
16:17:20 <adamw> that'll involve creating the f21 criteria pages and of course as viking-ice said they may need rather more radical revision for fedora.next, but we'll burn that bridge when we come to it
16:17:42 <roshi> more people want to talk about EOL?
16:17:47 <adamw> yeah, i think it'd be good to go back
16:17:54 <adamw> seems like there's some Stuff going on in the ticket
16:18:17 <roshi> #Topic EOL SOP discussion
16:18:58 <jreznik> so personally, I think option two - punt now is what we/I should do, it's really time to kick off scripts
16:19:05 <adamw> so, um. has anyone been following the ticket? want to summarize what is being proposed? it's a lot of reading.
16:19:18 <jreznik> seems like FESCO thinks so, except that ombudsman part
16:19:18 <adamw> i am seeing the word 'ombudsman' and reaching for my revolver.
16:19:29 <Viking-Ice> ombudsman really wtf
16:19:37 <roshi> what's an ombudsman?
16:19:41 <jreznik> but even there the consensus was more to try to set up some process for it first
16:19:50 <Viking-Ice> roshi, appointed indvidual
16:19:57 <roshi> hrm
16:20:01 <Viking-Ice> apparently we are not good enough for fesco
16:20:06 <roshi> thanks Viking-Ice
16:20:13 <jreznik> roshi: mailing list to complain your bug was closed
16:20:49 <jreznik> and probably QA should lead that mailing list - that's why nirik was not happy by having it now without your ack (and I tend to agree with him(
16:20:58 <Viking-Ice> we dont need another mailinglist
16:20:59 <Viking-Ice> seriously
16:21:22 <Viking-Ice> throw that out the window reporters will move and retest bugs if they are still relevant
16:21:30 <adamw> yeah, that seems like a byzantine process
16:21:49 <jreznik> adamw: I expect most would be "fix my bug" not real issues
16:21:50 <Viking-Ice> but no let's create a complaining mailinglist now that's a great idea
16:21:54 <roshi> Viking-Ice: can we work on that tester/triager proposal of your and try to set up an SOP for this?
16:22:06 <Viking-Ice> roshi, yeah
16:22:28 <roshi> good
16:22:35 <jreznik> I'd say punt now, and next time let it as part of triagers process by Viking-Ice
16:22:45 <tflink> a mailing list open to public posting ... given how much spam comes to owner aliases, that seems like a questionable idea, at best
16:22:48 <nonamedotc> i can help with testing/triaging
16:23:11 <jreznik> if you could state it to the ticket as QA agreement, it would help me to move on
16:23:11 <adamw> i'm not honestly sure any of the proposals makes anything better than it is now. so, i guess i'd be +1 punt.
16:23:23 <roshi> #info Viking-Ice and roshi to develop SOP for EOL included in the triager/tester proposal
16:23:24 <jreznik> adamw: ^^^ one line above
16:23:31 <roshi> punt makes sense to me
16:23:59 <roshi> anyone against punt and plan for next go around?
16:24:29 <adamw> proposed: QA doesn't think any of the proposed improvements sounds great, and any change to the process should involve all stakeholders: we suggest FESCo punt on the question for now and consider viking-ice's triage revamp and post any future proposals to the change the process to relevant groups' lists
16:24:40 <roshi> ack
16:24:55 <Viking-Ice> ack
16:25:28 <adamw> anyone else?
16:25:37 <tflink> ack
16:26:16 <adamw> #agreed QA doesn't think any of the proposed improvements sounds great, and any change to the process should involve all stakeholders: we suggest FESCo punt on the question for now and consider viking-ice's triage revamp and post any future proposals to change the process to relevant groups' lists
16:26:16 * nonamedotc wonders if his ack counts :)
16:26:22 <adamw> nonamedotc: it sure does
16:26:24 <roshi> it counts nonamedotc
16:26:25 <roshi> :)
16:26:42 <roshi> alright, onward and upward
16:26:54 <roshi> #topic 10-Year anniversary shirts
16:27:20 * pwhalen stumbles in late
16:27:37 <roshi> Does anyone not want theirs? was the question adamw had in the agenda for today
16:28:04 <Viking-Ice> to what end have people ship theirs back?
16:28:10 * satellit have they been sent out yet...None here yet
16:28:28 <Viking-Ice> and btw mess like this is why we never approved any carroting in QA in thepast
16:28:47 <Viking-Ice> ( hero's of QA can have the exact same negative effectt )
16:28:55 <roshi> I sensed some confusion with this 10 year shirt thing, between "who wants a shirt" and "You're on a list"
16:29:31 <roshi> or was that just me?
16:29:57 <roshi> Viking-Ice: I think the initial thought was Fedora proper was looking for contributors for their push - not a QA specific thing
16:29:59 <nonamedotc> @roshi: that confusion was definitely there in @test I think ....
16:30:07 <Viking-Ice> roshi, it's the classic who got forgotten
16:30:15 <roshi> for sure
16:30:17 <Viking-Ice> there are whole teams missing
16:30:34 <Viking-Ice> even the systemd section is way off
16:30:58 * roshi isn't yet familiar enough with the whole fedora ecosystem to know
16:31:03 <kparal> Viking-Ice: you did not complain when you got your Schrodinger's cat t-shirt last time...
16:31:11 <kparal> it was the same process
16:31:19 <adamw> sorry, was writing a note on the fesco ticket
16:31:36 <Viking-Ice> kparal, I picked that one up in brno
16:31:42 <adamw> the t-shirt process was a project-wide thing
16:31:44 <Viking-Ice> I did not know there was a process I think
16:31:59 <kparal> Viking-Ice: sure, but it was the same thing, you just picked it locally instead of being mailed to you
16:32:02 <Viking-Ice> and shroedeingsr cat was wider process then 10th annivesary
16:32:03 <adamw> i don't know who was in charge of it or how the whole process ran or anything. all's I know is i got a mail asking for a list of QA contributors.
16:32:41 <adamw> what i wanted to ask today was just whether anyone on the list of recipients is not really a schwag t-shirt person and would just leave it sitting in a drawer or something, and if so, consider giving it up so we can send it to someone who wants it more
16:32:57 <adamw> if everyone on the list is happy to be getting a shirt, then there's nothing to be done afaik
16:33:11 <Viking-Ice> the anaconda team is not even there
16:33:35 <kparal> we were dealing just with QA list
16:33:44 <roshi> are they represented by another team?
16:33:45 <Viking-Ice> yes I know
16:33:54 <roshi> that's what I was thinking is, this is just QA
16:34:00 <Viking-Ice> and the entire unity team is missing form that one
16:34:25 <kparal> it might be good to contact the ambassadors then
16:34:26 <Viking-Ice> but understandable since adam has no history longer then what 5 years
16:34:58 <Viking-Ice> but anyway we are powerless adding forgotten people
16:35:08 <roshi> so, is there anything else we can do here?
16:35:09 <adamw> Viking-Ice: yeah, as i said, i kinda dropped the ball a bit, and i feel bad - i should either have brought it to the list or actually got around to doing the first 5 years research.
16:35:11 * roshi thinks not
16:35:18 <adamw> but now it's too late :/ sorry.
16:35:42 <Viking-Ice> you could have simply reached out to people that have been here longer then that
16:35:43 <adamw> Viking-Ice: and yeah, nearly exactly five years, i joined at start of feb 2009.
16:36:14 <adamw> Viking-Ice: i did actually mail poelcat and had the first five years of ML archives ready to inspect, i just somehow never quite got to it
16:36:23 <Viking-Ice> anyway what is done is done and this is prime example why we choice at the time not have any carrot processes in QA
16:36:24 <adamw> always some other fire to put out :(
16:36:30 <Viking-Ice> people always get left out
16:36:50 <Viking-Ice> and explain why I was against hero's of QA
16:37:19 <adamw> Viking-Ice: i tend to make that same argument myself, i always feel bad about people getting left out, but otoh, it is kinda nice to hand stuff out, and at least it wasn't $200 visa cards or something - just a t-shirt. it's nice for the people who get them, and i hope anyone who didn't understands it means we don't think they suck or something. :)
16:37:57 <roshi> well, nothing to do here so onto Open Floor if there's no objection
16:37:57 <Viking-Ice> I dislike any process that cause fragmentation
16:38:08 <Viking-Ice> and these are such processes
16:38:39 <roshi> #topic Open Floor
16:39:07 <adamw> how's taskotron coming?
16:39:16 <spstarr_work> adamw: of course wearing the shirt you shouldn't ;) its a special one and it will fade if worn too much :/
16:39:33 <tflink> it's coming along
16:39:44 <Viking-Ice> http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/automation.png
16:39:53 <spstarr_work> now if everyone got 2 one to put into a frame the other to wear :)
16:39:58 * kparal working on wiki docs at the moment, rehauling QA/Tools page
16:40:06 <adamw> oh, in re taskotron: fesco has helpfully sent us an idea for an automated test, just the kind of thing we were short of ;) https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1223#comment:5
16:40:21 <tflink> got quite a few tickets filed last week and have been working on docs and getting code in more useful places
16:40:34 <adamw> Viking-Ice: heheh.
16:41:05 <kparal> adamw: we have a nice bucket of test ideas in our autoqa trac, we can add it there not to get it lost
16:41:16 <adamw> it's probably there already, but take a look
16:41:23 * kparal will read it
16:41:34 <adamw> is it a bucket, or more of a septic tank? :P
16:41:44 <kparal> bucket sounds better
16:41:54 <adamw> large, overstuffed, smells a bit, dubious things leaking from the back...
16:42:01 <kparal> yeah, a bucket
16:42:08 * tflink is going to be pestering folks on ticket progress this week :)
16:42:53 <kparal> test ideas are exactly what we need right now
16:43:05 <roshi> I'm in the midst of writing a setup tutorial for taskotron right now
16:43:12 <kparal> roshi: great
16:43:13 <Viking-Ice> xellent
16:43:51 <danofsatx> did I miss it?
16:43:56 * handsome_pirate returns
16:43:59 <handsome_pirate> heh
16:44:15 <kparal> danofsatx: yes, whatever 'it' is
16:44:38 <roshi> you had one job danofsatx, to catch 'it'
16:44:39 <danofsatx> the QA meeting :( I was busy and fergot
16:44:41 <roshi> one job
16:44:45 <roshi> :p
16:45:07 <Viking-Ice> live grenade toshin sucks to be last
16:45:10 <Viking-Ice> mean tossing
16:45:17 <Viking-Ice> to catch 'it'
16:45:20 <Viking-Ice> ;)
16:45:34 <handsome_pirate> lol
16:45:48 <roshi> well, anyone have anything else?
16:45:57 <adamw> i can't think of much really
16:46:15 <adamw> just a general note: we do have lots of things we can work on even though it's quiet time
16:46:43 <adamw> aside from tooling work, we can be doing karma testing on 19 and 20, running rawhide, even testing installs from the nightlies
16:46:46 <Viking-Ice> adamw, next time you get request like this it's better that you just let me or some that has actually been here longer then 5 years to take care of it
16:47:02 <Viking-Ice> kparal, has been here for what 6 - 7 years or so
16:47:03 <adamw> Viking-Ice: yeah, like i said, the obvious thing was to bring it to the list, i should've done that
16:47:13 <adamw> kparal actually forwarded it to me :)
16:47:32 <Viking-Ice> hot potato tossing
16:47:47 * kparal nods
16:47:52 <adamw> for more structural work, we could be writing package-specific test cases, improving the validation test cases and release criteria (that's what i'm looking at)
16:47:55 <adamw> lots of stuff to be doing!
16:48:15 * adamw notes this is mostly a lecture to himself not to spend his week working on OSM
16:48:17 <handsome_pirate> adamw:  Want to write a few tasks?
16:48:25 <roshi> adamw: is there a list of things to do?
16:48:30 <adamw> roshi: that was it ;)
16:48:31 <roshi> somewhere on teh wiki?
16:48:31 <nonamedotc> adamw: package specific test cases - for karma testing?
16:48:33 <kparal> adamw: maybe you could compile an email to test list? it could wake up somebody
16:48:49 <adamw> kparal: email's a good idea, i'll write up something in a bit more detail with wiki links and stuff
16:49:00 <roshi> awesome
16:49:02 <adamw> nonamedotc: yup - see https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:SOP_package_test_plan_creation
16:49:06 <kparal> roshi: I think the list of things is on the Join page?
16:49:15 <kparal> we could add more stuff like adamw just mentioned
16:49:18 <adamw> kparal: it's mostly that, yeah.
16:50:00 <roshi> that page is more "hey, pick a thing!" whereas I was wondering about "Hey, we have down time from release validation - here are the things we need done before fedora.next"
16:50:14 * nonamedotc says "I have not seen that page before. Too bad" ... :(
16:50:15 <roshi> the email should be good though
16:50:32 <adamw> roshi: there isn't an awful lot that we know for sure absolutely must get done, right now
16:50:44 <roshi> or do until
16:50:50 <adamw> it's more that there are a lot of areas we *can* improve with the time we have
16:50:59 <roshi> right
16:51:32 <adamw> i think the most high priority things we know about for sure are 'get taskotron up and running, and the most important tests like depcheck', and fixing the most obvious problems with the criteria and validation tests that we noted in 20 cycle
16:51:45 <adamw> mainly the storage stuff we've already discussed to some extent, but cmurf and I should kickstart that back up again
16:51:55 * satellit_e is it productive to test install (rawhide) lives or is it too early?
16:52:01 <adamw> satellit: it can't hurt anything
16:52:02 <Viking-Ice> well btrfs is that going to land in F21
16:52:10 <adamw> Viking-Ice: my guess is no, but who knows.
16:52:19 <satellit_e> need Permissive still last time I looked
16:52:26 <Viking-Ice> josef hanging to much on FB
16:52:27 <Viking-Ice> lol
16:53:13 <adamw> #action adamw to post a summary of our position on EOL to the FESCo ticket
16:53:26 <adamw> #action adamw to post a mail to test@ highlighting things we can be working on during the 'quiet time'
16:54:13 <adamw> i think that's all i got...
16:54:22 <adamw> thanks to roshi for running the meeting, btw
16:54:34 <roshi> np
16:54:39 <roshi> thanks for actioning yourself
16:55:01 * roshi lights the analog fuse
16:55:22 <adamw> digital fuse sounds like a really bad idea
16:55:27 <adamw> 10BOOM
16:55:44 <handsome_pirate> lol
16:56:12 <roshi> always safer to go analog
16:56:20 <roshi> EMP won't render this useless
16:56:32 <roshi> :)
16:57:53 * nonamedotc thinks that the fuse is quite looong ;)
16:58:03 * handsome_pirate snips the fuse
16:58:24 <tflink> handsome_pirate: wouldn't that put it out?
16:58:37 <handsome_pirate> Technically, no :)
16:58:43 <roshi> well, I was going to run the clock out
16:58:44 <roshi> :P
16:58:53 <roshi> #endmeeting