18:00:02 <nirik> #startmeeting IRC Support SIG (2014-01-30)
18:00:02 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Jan 30 18:00:02 2014 UTC.  The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:00:02 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:00:02 <nirik> #meetingname irc-support-sig
18:00:02 <nirik> #topic init process
18:00:02 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'irc-support-sig'
18:00:16 <nirik> hey everyone. Anyone around for a quick irc support sig meeting?
18:00:23 * randomuser is hanging around
18:01:14 <nirik> there wasn't much for an agenda today, so likely a short meeting...
18:01:24 <nirik> #topic Week in review
18:01:37 <nirik> anything to note from the previous weeks...
18:01:52 <nirik> I think things have been pretty normal. (Although I haven't had as much time to help in channel)
18:03:27 * randomuser observed nothing extraordinary
18:03:54 <nirik> common bugs have been great this cycle... kudos to adamw and others keeping them up to date.
18:04:08 <adamw> thanks
18:04:23 <adamw> reminds me, i'll do a check for updates today if i find the time
18:04:38 <randomuser> adamw, +1
18:04:42 <nirik> cool. ;)
18:05:33 <nirik> #topic Open Floor
18:05:37 <nirik> any items for open floor?
18:05:53 <nirik> I still plan to make some kind of proposal around nick changes, but haven't gotten to it yet.
18:07:29 <nirik> anyhow, I guess if nothing else we will call it a super short meeting and close in a few...
18:08:18 <msocorcim> hello
18:08:29 <msocorcim> I have one general sort of comment
18:09:10 <nirik> msocorcim: sure, fire away
18:09:51 <msocorcim> don't know if it's germane, but there seem to be many fedora users who are discouraged/disenchanted, insert your choice of dis-.. about gnome desktop
18:10:11 <nirik> there's also many that like it. ;)
18:10:18 <nirik> it's not up to us to tell people what they like.
18:10:38 <msocorcim> it's not really about preference, the point I'm hoping to make
18:10:54 <randomuser> msocorcim, do you have any suggestions on how #fedora can increase awareness of alternatives?
18:11:12 * nirik often sees people suggesting alternatives...
18:11:18 <msocorcim> heh, my hope is to promote awareness of gnome
18:11:55 <msocorcim> I try to use gnome, understand it and help it to improve
18:12:03 <nirik> great.
18:12:12 <randomuser> msocorcim, the general problem as I see it is that there is a class of users that feel that they are somehow not allowed to differ from the default
18:12:49 <msocorcim> more often than not in #fedora when I ask a question about gnome, there's a chorus of "I use mate, check it out" or Cinnamon, or xfce
18:12:58 <nirik> personally I think there's many choices... the problem as I see it is that some people insist on making others use their preference.
18:13:27 <nirik> right. so, IMHO, you should be able to say, sorry, I'm otherwise happy with gnome... but thanks.
18:13:36 <CuriosTiger> Like when the default install insists on Gnome? (yes, that's devil's advocate a bit)
18:13:58 <randomuser> it is rather irritating to see someone come in with a trivial question, and the answer is an unrelated "Just use cinnamon, I don't have that problem"
18:14:01 <msocorcim> well the truth is, I'm pretty dissatisfied with gnome, but I see it as worth supporting
18:14:13 <pjones> CuriosTiger: "default" is, in fact, the antithesis of "insist on"
18:14:15 <randomuser> i see no action required, because I openly criticize such advice
18:14:28 <nirik> randomuser: +1
18:15:09 <CuriosTiger> randomuser: Sometimes, an alternative piece of software can be a genuinely helpful suggestion. I'll agree that's the exception to the rule on IRC, however.
18:15:32 <randomuser> CuriosTiger, well, I'm not a bot. If the suggestion is appropriate, I won't have an issue with it
18:16:08 <nirik> I can see people suggesting alternatives, but they should stop when the user says they want to stick to that software and simply want to know how to do their goal with it.
18:16:54 <CuriosTiger> pjones: Technically, "refuses" is the antithesis of "insists on", but I didn't come here to argue semantics. My point was simply that many people wind up with Gnome not because they made a choice, but because they accepted a default, and therefore it's not necessarily a bad thing to suggest alternatives. That said, it's obviously frustrating when that advice comes at the expense of not
18:17:00 <CuriosTiger> getting help with your actual problem.
18:17:02 <CuriosTiger> nirik: Yeah, agreed 100%.
18:17:15 <randomuser> honestly, unless there's a direct question about alternative DEs, the whole preference debate does not give any support value
18:17:32 <pjones> nirik: or more to the point, it shouldn't be the response to "how do I do $foo in my DE"
18:17:54 <nirik> yep yep
18:18:05 <randomuser> the "I use $DE" refrain is very irritating, distracting, detrimental
18:18:57 <nirik> it's just a more linux case of "Oh, you can do that in microsoft word, you should switch to that"
18:19:01 <nanonyme> Additionally the suggestion to use another DE isn't really useful if the intent is to gather user information that can be investigated to find out whether the reason of $foo not being easy to do is just because of a bug
18:19:01 <randomuser> again, no action required IMO, other than "help people with good answers, and help people *give* good answers"
18:19:24 <msocorcim> nanonyme: nod
18:19:56 <nirik> I think we are all in agreement here then?
18:20:17 <CuriosTiger> I believe so.
18:20:23 <msocorcim> move to adjourn :)
18:20:32 <nirik> thanks for the topic msocorcim
18:20:40 <msocorcim> n/p
18:21:13 <nirik> thanks for coming everyone!
18:21:16 <nirik> #endmeeting