13:03:24 <bkabrda> #startmeeting Env and Stacks (2014-02-04)
13:03:24 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Feb  4 13:03:24 2014 UTC.  The chair is bkabrda. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
13:03:24 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
13:03:32 <bkabrda> #meetingname Env and Stacks
13:03:32 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'env_and_stacks'
13:03:45 <juhp_> hi
13:03:46 <mmaslano> bkabrda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Env_and_Stacks?rd=Env_and_Stacks/
13:03:53 <mmaslano> hi guys, I can't attend today
13:04:10 <tjanez> hi
13:04:18 <bkabrda> #chair bkabrda hhorak abadger1999 samkottler juhp_ tjanez
13:04:18 <zodbot> Current chairs: abadger1999 bkabrda hhorak juhp_ samkottler tjanez
13:04:28 * samkottler is here
13:04:32 <bkabrda> hi! hope I didn't miss anyone in chairs
13:05:06 <juhp_> or https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Env_and_Stacks :)
13:06:37 <bkabrda> ok, so we have two topics for today - defining a better mission and devassistant section. I already worked on devassistant section, so maybe we can start with it?
13:06:54 <juhp_> sure
13:07:03 <tjanez> bkabrda, ok
13:07:16 <bkabrda> #topic DevAssistant PRD section
13:08:18 <bkabrda> so, if you look at what it says now, it's more like a higher-level overview of what devassistant is and what we should do with that. does anyone has comments/suggestions on it?
13:09:25 <juhp_> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Env_and_Stacks/Product_Requirements_Document#DevAssistant
13:10:20 <bkabrda> juhp_: ah, thanks for the link :)
13:10:35 <hhorak> Hey guys, I have to apology for today, I'll need to leave to catch a train in a while. For DevAssistant PRD -- it seems good to me.. we can't be more verbose here I guess..
13:11:00 <tjanez> bkabrda, overall, I think it is fine
13:11:06 <hhorak> so before I leave, +1 for the DevAssistant ;)
13:11:40 <tjanez> hhorak, have a safe trip
13:12:06 <bkabrda> hmm, how many people do we need to actually agree on something?
13:12:34 <tjanez> bkabrda, we have 9 voting members
13:12:36 <tjanez> so I guess 5
13:12:51 <hhorak> tjanez: thanks
13:13:09 <tjanez> Governance is here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Toshio/Env_and_Stacks_Governance
13:13:20 <bkabrda> ok, so we can approve the devassistant part, since honza gave us +1 and it's 4 more of us present. but when he leaves, I think we won't be able to do anything
13:13:57 * juhp_ is reading it
13:14:10 <tjanez> bkabrda, actually, we also have "lazy consensus" on the ML
13:14:21 <hhorak> you can vote in smaller group and use "lazy consensus" for final approval
13:14:27 <hhorak> tjanez: :)
13:14:33 <bkabrda> yeah, true :)
13:14:48 <hhorak> OK, sorry again, need to leave now. bye!
13:14:53 <bkabrda> bye
13:14:55 <tjanez> hhorak, bye
13:15:30 <juhp_> I think it looks good - much better
13:15:34 <tjanez> bkarba, I can help reword some parts of the DevAssistant part
13:15:38 <juhp_> bkabrda, what is RVM? :)
13:15:55 <bkabrda> juhp_: ruby version manager, much like virtualenv for python
13:16:04 <bkabrda> although it can actually install ruby itself, too
13:16:29 <bkabrda> tjanez: what do you think needs rewording?
13:16:38 <tjanez> also, I would maybe put some references/links/acronyms for Yaml DSL, Docker, SCM, RVM
13:16:57 <juhp_> bkabrda, I see
13:17:22 <juhp_> ah right
13:17:39 <bkabrda> tjanez: good point. I can put these in https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Env_and_Stacks/Product_Requirements_Document#Definitions_and_Acronyms
13:18:48 <juhp_> how does it interact with SCMs btw?  I am curious -- sorry I haven't tired DA yet...
13:19:08 <juhp_> ah things like git init?
13:19:31 <bkabrda> juhp_: yeah. not much more currently, but it's really a matter of writing simple assistants to support much more
13:19:33 <juhp_> s/tired/tried/
13:19:37 <juhp_> okay
13:21:10 * juhp_ yum installs...
13:21:16 <bkabrda> so I guess we can say that some rewording/abbreviation explanation should be done for the DevAssistant part?
13:22:20 <juhp_> well I think I am happy to vote +1 and any further improvements would be a plus
13:22:33 <tjanez> bkabrda, with rewording I meant minor improvements like: "we should encourage Fedora maintainers (and upstreams) of "developer interesting" components..." ->
13:22:33 <tjanez> "we will encourage Fedora maintainers (and upstreams) of components that are "interesting" to developers"
13:23:33 <bkabrda> tjanez: fine by me. perhaps you could edit right now so that we can approve it and then I'll just add the abbreviations after the meeting ends?
13:24:40 <tjanez> bkabrda, I could, but maybe it's better if we discuss the other topic
13:25:29 <bkabrda> #proposal: DevAssistant section is overally ok, but tjanez and bkabrda will work on rewording some parts.
13:25:38 <tjanez> bkabrda, +1
13:25:40 <juhp_> +1
13:26:00 <bkabrda> +1 from me, obviously :)
13:26:30 <bkabrda> samkottler: what's your opinion on the proposal?
13:28:16 <bkabrda> we don't have a quorum anyway, but I think I'll just put it in meeting minutes as #action, then we can let more people review the reworded section. sounds fine?
13:28:38 <tjanez> bkabrda, +1
13:29:35 <juhp_> sure - rest can vote on the mailing list I think
13:29:43 <bkabrda> #action DevAssistant section is overally ok, but tjanez and bkabrda will work on rewording some parts.
13:30:06 <bkabrda> so I think we can move to defining the mission
13:30:34 <bkabrda> #topic Define Mission Statement of Env and Stacks WG
13:30:48 <tjanez> I would like to clarify a confusion wrt Vision and Mission statements
13:31:13 <bkabrda> tjanez: yeah, these two look too similar right now
13:31:36 <tjanez> mmaslano did a mistake on last IRC meeting when she said #agreed New vision
13:31:48 <mmaslano> yeah sorry
13:31:49 <tjanez> what we agreed on was actually the mission statement
13:32:03 <tjanez> and we said we will discuss the vision statement on the ML
13:32:18 <bkabrda> ah, ok... so shall I change the topic to Vision statement?
13:32:26 <tjanez> bkabrda, yes
13:32:37 <bkabrda> #topic Define Vision Statement of Env and Stacks WG
13:34:48 <bkabrda> hmm, so we should say something like people will come to fedora because we'll be providing the best environments/tools/stacks for developers and devops... right?
13:35:18 * tjanez corrected the mistake wrt Mission in the wiki
13:35:59 <tjanez> sgallaghl said the problem with the old vision statement is that it isn't one.
13:36:13 <tjanez> He said: "The purpose of a vision statement is to describe the state that you want to achieve."
13:36:17 <juhp_> bkabrda, I think so
13:36:24 <juhp_> right
13:36:47 <juhp_> he also said the Mission Statement should be changed I think
13:36:58 <juhp_> well suggested
13:37:15 <tjanez> juhp_, yes, and we followed his suggestion
13:37:18 <bkabrda> tjanez: yeah. so the state is "we have best options to develop and deploy with various language stacks, so people are comming to us" (forgive the rough wording, I'm just trying to get to the spirit of it)
13:38:29 <tjanez> bkabrda, I agree with the spirit
13:38:54 <tjanez> On the last meeting I proposed: "Fedora is the preferred platform for new software development and its deployment in any language and/or application stack."
13:39:13 <tjanez> Maybe we can work on that
13:39:15 <bkabrda> tjanez: that actually sounds pretty good
13:40:28 <tjanez> Maybe even simpler: "Fedora is the preferred platform for software development and deployment in any language or application stack."
13:41:00 <juhp_> I don't really like the "and/or" but otherwise it sounds good
13:41:08 <juhp_> tjanez, yeah
13:41:16 <tjanez> juhp_, yeah, I threw it out :)
13:41:20 <juhp_> yes
13:41:25 <juhp_> tjanez, +1
13:41:37 <bkabrda> tjanez: the second one sounds really good. +1
13:41:50 <tjanez> Ok, great.
13:42:03 <bkabrda> samkottler: still here?
13:42:19 <tjanez> Since we are not enough, I can have an #action item, and propose this on the ML
13:42:29 <juhp_> good
13:42:47 <bkabrda> tjanez: ok, let me just create an AI then...
13:42:51 <juhp_> I think it is important enough that all should vote on it anyway
13:43:22 <tjanez> juhp_, +1
13:43:36 <bkabrda> #proposal tjanez to propose vision statement on mailing list for discussion: "Fedora is the preferred platform for software development and deployment in any language or application stack."
13:44:01 <bkabrda> tjanez: sounds good?
13:44:13 <tjanez> bkabrda, perfect
13:44:24 <bkabrda> #action tjanez to propose vision statement on mailing list for discussion: "Fedora is the preferred platform for software development and deployment in any language or application stack."
13:44:52 <bkabrda> so I guess that's it... does anyone have something else?
13:45:06 <tjanez> bkabrda, just one more thing
13:45:28 <tjanez> regarding the juhp_ proposal on the IRC channel
13:45:33 <juhp_> how about the Mission Statement - was that decided?
13:46:12 <tjanez> juhp_, yes, we voted on it at the last meeting
13:46:51 <tjanez> if you have suggestions/improvements, feel free to speak
13:47:26 <juhp_> cool - maybe typo in the minutes then :)
13:47:57 <tjanez> yuhp_, yes, a typo: "#agreed New vision:" should have been "#agreed New mission:"
13:48:15 <juhp_> good - that's fine then
13:48:25 <juhp_> thanks
13:48:30 <tjanez> juhp_, I liked your proposal for a new IRC channel, just didn't had the time to give +1 yet
13:48:52 <bkabrda> yeah, me too... will do that right after the meeting
13:49:00 <tjanez> I would encourage others to vote +1, -1 on that
13:49:06 <juhp_> okay sure thanks :)
13:49:20 <bkabrda> I can put an AI for everyone to vote on that :)
13:49:31 <tjanez> bkabrda, go for it :)
13:49:40 <juhp_> ok - yes let's get it out of way
13:49:59 <juhp_> bkabrda, thanks
13:50:14 <bkabrda> #proposal Vote on Jens's proposal for irc channel on mailing list: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/env-and-stacks/2014-January/000157.html
13:50:35 <bkabrda> or maybe even better...
13:50:41 <tjanez> bkabrda, +1, make an #action item
13:50:49 <bkabrda> #proposal Everyone should vote on Jens's proposal for irc channel on mailing list: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/env-and-stacks/2014-January/000157.html
13:51:03 <bkabrda> (to explicitly say that it's for everyone :))
13:51:11 <tjanez> bkabrda, the second one is even better :)
13:51:23 <bkabrda> maybe s/everyone/all memebers of WG
13:51:44 <tjanez> bkabrda, *voting* members even
13:51:46 <juhp_> or action even - anyway it's fine
13:52:11 <bkabrda> #action All woting members of WG should vote on Jens's proposal for irc channel on mailing list: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/env-and-stacks/2014-January/000157.html
13:53:01 <bkabrda> ok, something else?
13:53:31 <tjanez> bkabrda, nothing else from me
13:54:35 <bkabrda> ok, I'll end the meeting in a minute or so
13:55:28 <juhp_> thanks bkabrda
13:55:41 <bkabrda> thank you all
13:55:44 <tjanez> bkabrda, thanks for chairing
13:55:49 <bkabrda> #endmeeting