06:02:24 <tagoh_> #startmeeting i18n
06:02:24 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Feb 26 06:02:24 2014 UTC.  The chair is tagoh_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
06:02:24 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
06:02:24 <tagoh_> #meetingname i18n
06:02:25 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'i18n'
06:02:25 <tagoh_> #topic agenda and roll call
06:02:25 <tagoh_> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/I18N/Meetings/2014-02-26
06:02:32 <skore> hi
06:02:37 <tagoh_> okay, time for i18n meeting
06:02:38 <mfabian> Hi!
06:02:45 <epico> hi
06:03:57 <juhp> hi
06:03:58 <fujiwarat> hi
06:05:54 <tagoh_> okay, let's get started.
06:06:14 <tagoh_> #topic Upcoming schedule
06:06:14 <tagoh_> #info no earlier than 2014-04-01         Change Proposals Submission Deadline
06:06:14 <tagoh_> #info no earlier than August     Fedora 21 Final Release
06:06:47 <tagoh_> no details yet. we still have a time to prepare something for f21 apparently
06:06:48 <anish__> Hi
06:07:22 <juhp> any more Changes?
06:08:09 <tagoh_> no proposed changes from us at this moment IIRC. anyone has anything?
06:10:29 <juhp> epico mentioned to me he might do one for libzhuyin I think
06:10:37 <tagoh_> aha
06:10:50 <epico> juhp, yes
06:11:01 <epico> add a todo item for it.
06:11:08 <juhp> cool
06:11:09 * epico add.
06:11:12 <tagoh_> making it default IM?
06:11:18 <juhp> perhaps
06:11:46 <juhp> epico, I think that is the long-term plan anyway, right?
06:11:47 <epico> not decide it yet...
06:11:50 <epico> yes
06:11:56 <tagoh_> I see
06:12:44 <juhp> I guess that is what the Change should cover anyway - target might still be open perhaps, but I hope F21 could be possible
06:12:47 <juhp> epico, lucky that F21 cycle is long this time at least
06:13:07 <epico> yeah, really lucky
06:13:30 <tagoh_> right
06:18:06 <tagoh_> anything else?
06:20:27 <tagoh_> okay, move on then
06:20:30 <tagoh_> #topic Outstanding topics
06:20:31 <tagoh_> #info #25: Bugs Corner (i18n@lists.fedoraproject.org)
06:20:31 <tagoh_> #link https://fedorahosted.org/i18n/ticket/25
06:20:37 <tagoh_> any bugs we want to discuss today?
06:25:29 <tagoh_> no?
06:28:44 <tagoh_> okay... let's move on then
06:28:53 <tagoh_> #info #26: proposal: IM and xkb UI design improvements (petersen)
06:28:53 <tagoh_> #link https://fedorahosted.org/i18n/ticket/26
06:29:34 <juhp> I summarised a bit more now - to what is perhaps left after removing input modes from the original proposal
06:29:56 <juhp> https://fedorahosted.org/i18n/ticket/26#comment:14
06:30:00 <tagoh_> thanks
06:30:13 <juhp> not sure if I got it all right - corrections/tweaks welcome
06:30:33 <juhp> seems/looks more manageable now at least
06:31:23 <juhp> I am still a bit unclear about keyboard detection - well never really see it - so more info on that would be welcome
06:31:52 <juhp> at least afaik it is not currently used/done in Fedora bicbw
06:32:20 <juhp> otherwise two main pieces:
06:32:51 <juhp> - categorizing of kbd layout/geometry and IMEs and their interaction
06:32:59 <juhp> - gnome-shell UI tweaks
06:33:45 <juhp> the former could lead to more changes to the latter perhaps, not sure - but perhaps better to leave that for later?
06:33:53 <juhp> fujiwarat, does it make any sense?
06:33:57 <fujiwarat> Maybe you could test anaconda with usb keyboards.
06:34:12 <juhp> anyone not using usb? :)
06:34:29 <tagoh_> laptop?
06:34:56 <fujiwarat> Ah, I don't know laptop...
06:34:57 <juhp> so it would not work for laptop keyboards?
06:35:04 <tagoh_> the keyboard for my desktop still uses ps2 but anyway
06:35:11 <juhp> ok
06:35:15 <mfabian> Aren’t laptop keyboards USB as well?
06:35:27 <juhp> mfabian, perhaps - not sure
06:35:28 <mjg59> Not typically
06:35:31 <juhp> okay
06:35:50 <juhp> mjg59, ps/2?
06:36:01 <mjg59> Usually, yeah
06:36:02 <juhp> or something else perhaps
06:36:04 <juhp> okay
06:36:18 <mjg59> Also, most USB keyboards don't report the keymap in any useful way
06:36:29 <juhp> mjg59, right that was also my impression
06:36:36 <fujiwarat> juhp: I could not remember about gnome-shell UI tweaks.
06:36:44 <juhp> fujiwarat, ?
06:36:51 <juhp> they are listed in #14
06:36:57 <juhp> ie comment 14
06:36:59 <fujiwarat> ok
06:37:34 <juhp> anyway if kbd detection doesn't work for laptop that is kind of a showstopper...
06:37:55 <juhp> or story-stopper I mean :)
06:38:28 <juhp> perhaps I will remove it then - unless there is something left from it
06:39:09 <tagoh_> no way to do that heuristically?
06:40:57 <juhp> I have a "lenovo_tpkbd 0003:17EF:6009.0027" keyboard
06:41:04 <juhp> (just looking dmesg)
06:41:24 <juhp> dunno if some db could be made but sounds like hard work :)
06:41:44 <fujiwarat> juhp: the comment 14 sounds good.
06:41:47 <juhp> crowd sourcing - then again no idea of that id means anyway
06:41:51 <juhp> fujiwarat, great!
06:42:01 <juhp> s/of/if/
06:42:23 <juhp> anyway maybe we can drop the kbd detection for now - desirable as it is
06:42:51 <mjg59> USB keyboards will tend to have the same IDs no matter what layout they have
06:43:06 <mjg59> There's a countrycode field but it's allowed by spec (and usually is) to be 0
06:43:49 <tagoh_> aha
06:43:50 <juhp> wonder if it works on APL hw...
06:59:41 <juhp> fujiwarat, do you see any issue with gnome-shell grabbing Super-Space?
06:59:52 <tagoh_> so not quite sure what one wanted to say on it.
07:00:53 <tagoh_> was it something when we still had a plan for direct mode perhaps?
07:01:00 <juhp> tagoh_, it is about the switcher popup (overlay), right
07:01:16 <fujiwarat> juhp: It does not send Super+space to vbox guests.
07:01:22 <juhp> the suggest to only show it if more than 2 Sources
07:02:02 <epico> after the gnome shell grab the interface from ibus daemon, could the ibus panel grab it too?
07:03:15 <tagoh_> juhp: it doesn't on f20 when I remove either of IM or xkb and keep only one in the input source. so no problem then?
07:03:43 <juhp> tagoh_, does it not for 2 sources?
07:04:14 <juhp> I think the suggestion was that it is redundant for 2 but I dunno
07:04:24 <tagoh_> why?
07:04:27 <fujiwarat> epico: ibus gtk panel cannot grab the same shortcut key if g-s-d assign the key at first.
07:04:30 <juhp> maybe slows down switching...
07:04:42 <juhp> tagoh_, i forgot who suggested it :)
07:04:45 <epico> fujiwarat, thanks, I see. just have a question...
07:05:26 <juhp> epico, I added https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=719749
07:05:31 <epico> task list switcher shows one window...
07:05:38 <juhp> aha
07:05:48 <juhp> so maybe unlikely to be accepted
07:06:16 <juhp> fujiwarat, switcher popup can be disabled?
07:06:20 <juhp> for gnome I mean
07:06:29 <juhp> (and/or ibus?)
07:06:36 <epico> juhp, ?
07:06:43 <juhp> I mean in gsettings say
07:07:15 <juhp> epico, ? :)
07:07:24 <epico> added ?
07:07:32 <juhp> yes to the summary
07:07:44 <epico> juhp, thanks :)
07:08:04 <juhp> (still editting comment 14)
07:08:35 <juhp> fujiwarat, what to do about VMs?  anything?
07:09:06 <juhp> so shall we drop "only show switcher popup when more than two input sources"?
07:09:17 <juhp> sorry I forget how it came up
07:09:26 <fujiwarat> juhp: yes for ibus, org.freedesktop.ibus.general switcher-delay-time == -1
07:09:40 <juhp> aha but not for gnome?
07:09:51 <fujiwarat> not for gnome.
07:10:05 <juhp> ok
07:10:50 <tagoh_> that feature somewhat makese sense so that I don't need to change the focus of my eye to the top panel to see what current input source is. though indeed that is a bit slow
07:10:57 <juhp> I think someone felt it was annoying in gnome perhaps if one only has 2 input sources but I am not sure there is a strong argument for the change
07:11:07 <juhp> tagoh_, true
07:11:44 <juhp> I suspect the gnome people might not be convinced anyway...
07:12:01 <fujiwarat> juhp: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=844555
07:12:08 <juhp> so maybe we could drop it for now - it is still in the earlier comments anyway - if we want to revisit again some day
07:14:45 <juhp> fujiwarat, added thanks
07:15:00 <juhp> anything else? :)
07:15:55 <juhp> I feel like there could be more buried issues that need to be extracted and made visible here perhaps
07:16:12 <juhp> otherwise maybe it is enough for now?
07:16:36 <fujiwarat> juhp: If we categorise IME and xkb by geometry, do we convince gnome people? Currently we think ibus shows all engines and GUI tools could restrict the number of the engines.
07:17:04 <juhp> fujiwarat, good question
07:19:24 <juhp> fujiwarat, I think maybe we have to do the categorizing first - to some extent at least
07:19:57 <fujiwarat> ok, thx.
07:19:57 <juhp> of course we could discuss it with them now too - but it is still quite a big if perhaps
07:22:17 <tagoh_> okay, anything else we want to discuss on this topic?
07:23:55 <juhp> I will file a bug for improve the Indicator menu for IMEs
07:24:06 <fujiwarat> epico: two orientations are needed by ibus- rime and sunpinyin? I thought the original orientation might be wrong.
07:24:32 <epico> fujiwarat, they don't provide the option.
07:24:46 <epico> they think it is okay to setup it in ibus-setup dialog.
07:25:05 <epico> the ime don't call the related methods.
07:25:34 <fujiwarat> I mean if a user wish to change the orientation from vertical to horizontal, the default vertical is not good originally?
07:26:05 <epico> ?
07:26:23 <fujiwarat> pinyin and anthy sets the orientation and users don't need to change the default orientation.
07:26:56 <epico> they will setup it in ibus-setup, then they wish the ibus panel of gnome-shell changed.
07:27:09 <epico> fujiwarat, yes
07:27:20 <epico> but rime author refuse to set it.
07:27:31 <epico> in ibus-rime
07:27:47 <juhp> we could in Fedora perhaps?
07:27:50 <epico> he claims that ibus-setup has the option, not need to add it.
07:27:55 <juhp> hm
07:28:10 <epico> s/add it/add it in rime/
07:28:11 <fujiwarat> I wonder why the customization is needed.
07:28:38 <fujiwarat> ok
07:28:46 <epico> from current ime...
07:28:56 <epico> some ime supports it.
07:29:52 <fujiwarat> e.g. pinyin has horizontal and none does not like to change it to vertical?
07:30:11 <epico> fujiwarat, some users will change it.
07:30:28 <epico> just because they get used to the vertical panel.
07:30:57 <epico> change once, then seldom changes.
07:31:09 <epico> s/changes/change/
07:31:13 <fujiwarat> ok
07:31:42 <tagoh_> anything else?
07:33:51 <tagoh_> okay, let's move on then
07:33:54 <tagoh_> #topic Open Floor
07:34:08 <tagoh_> any other topics we want to discuss before stop the meeting?
07:36:15 <tagoh_> if not, let's close the meeting shortly
07:38:55 <tagoh_> alright, stop here then. thanks everyone for the meeting!
07:39:01 <tagoh_> #endmeeting