15:08:35 <Kevin_Kofler> #startmeeting KDE SIG Meeting
15:08:35 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Mar 18 15:08:35 2014 UTC.  The chair is Kevin_Kofler. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:08:35 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:08:39 <Kevin_Kofler> #meetingname kde-sig
15:08:39 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'kde-sig'
15:08:43 <Kevin_Kofler> #topic Role call
15:08:52 <mbriza> present
15:08:57 * jgrulich is present
15:09:02 <dvratil_> hi
15:09:03 <tosky> hi
15:09:05 * Kevin_Kofler is present, until ~15:30 UTC, someone will have to pick up leading then!
15:09:16 <pino|work> hi
15:09:38 <Kevin_Kofler> #chair mbriza jgrulich dvratil_ tosky pino|work
15:09:38 <zodbot> Current chairs: Kevin_Kofler dvratil_ jgrulich mbriza pino|work tosky
15:09:57 <tosky> I think ltinkl is also around
15:10:00 * ltinkl is here
15:10:28 <Kevin_Kofler> rdieter, than, jreznik: Ping
15:10:45 <rdieter> here for ~20 minutes at least, may have to leave then
15:10:50 <Kevin_Kofler> rdieter: Me too. :-)
15:10:59 <Kevin_Kofler> #chair ltinkl rdieter jreznik
15:11:00 <zodbot> Current chairs: Kevin_Kofler dvratil_ jgrulich jreznik ltinkl mbriza pino|work rdieter tosky
15:11:29 <Kevin_Kofler> #info Kevin_Kofler, mbriza, jgrulich, dvratil_, tosky, pino|work, ltinkl, rdieter, jreznik_q10 present.
15:11:34 <Kevin_Kofler> #topic Agenda
15:11:41 <Kevin_Kofler> So let's speed up a bit! :-)
15:11:49 * rdieter can give quick update on 4.12.90 status
15:11:53 <Kevin_Kofler> ltinkl says we should start discussing the PRD.
15:11:58 <ltinkl> yup
15:12:05 <ltinkl> #topic https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Plasma_Product/PRD
15:12:32 * than is present
15:12:33 <Kevin_Kofler> I suggested some changes on the Talk page.
15:12:36 <ltinkl> jreznik wanted to add/refine some points
15:12:37 * rdieter would prefer any feedback sent onlist
15:12:38 <Kevin_Kofler> #info than also present.
15:12:40 <Kevin_Kofler> #chair than
15:12:40 <zodbot> Current chairs: Kevin_Kofler dvratil_ jgrulich jreznik ltinkl mbriza pino|work rdieter than tosky
15:13:04 <Kevin_Kofler> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Talk:Fedora_Plasma_Product/PRD
15:13:26 <Kevin_Kofler> jreznik_q10: Do your suggested changes overlap with mine?
15:13:51 <ltinkl> Kevin_Kofler: good suggestions, I will incorporate them
15:13:59 <jreznik_q10> Kevin_Kofler, what were your suggestions?
15:14:00 <rdieter> fwiw, I like Kevin_Kofler's suggestions too
15:14:07 <rdieter> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Talk:Fedora_Plasma_Product/PRD
15:14:11 <rdieter> jreznik_q10: ^^
15:14:22 * jreznik_q10 missed this
15:14:32 <ltinkl> any other suggestions or corrections we should make?
15:15:17 <ltinkl> the point is to create a product that will sound appealing to both (target) users and which will complement the current 3 products (ws, server, cloud)
15:15:25 <ltinkl> so that there's minimal or no overlap
15:16:20 <redi> "Why Fedora Plasma" doesn't read well. "complementary to *THE* other three Fedora products and *A* physics term" would be better, although I don't see why that sentence is relevant at all
15:16:23 <jreznik_q10> Looks good but I'd like to narrow the product more to education, science, lab and would ommit content creator, developers and power users (at least for now)
15:16:31 <redi> you can't aim on people, aim at, or aim for ... not aim on
15:16:46 <jreznik_q10> otherwise I expect someone would raise it's just general use product
15:17:17 * rdieter likes the Developer target, where do upstream developers fit otherwise?
15:17:23 <Kevin_Kofler> jreznik_q10: Power users are KDE's main strength.
15:17:29 <jreznik_q10> and if it's the only way how KDE can survive within Fedora umbrella..
15:18:02 <Kevin_Kofler> The other 2 do have work done inside KDE.
15:18:17 <jreznik_q10> We have to sell it to FESCo, that's my point
15:18:21 <Kevin_Kofler> For content creation, there's obviously Krita, then isn't there also some special Calligra app designed for professional writers?
15:18:27 <Martix> I agree, we should try to get more scientific and engineering spins engaged
15:18:51 <rdieter> I'd like to see our existing audiences addressed, which *are* already for the most part, https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/KDE_Target_Audience
15:19:10 <Kevin_Kofler> For developers, Qt and KDE libs/Frameworks are definitely a better platform to build on than GTK+.
15:19:18 <Kevin_Kofler> And KDevelop is the best IDE out there.
15:19:24 <sgallagh> jreznik_q10: Speaking for myself: "Developer of KDE (+science/edu)" is probably sufficiently distinct
15:19:30 <jreznik_q10> Qt Creator is!
15:19:53 <ltinkl> sgallagh: thanks :)
15:20:03 <ltinkl> I agree we should not leave out the existing KDE spin's users
15:20:12 <Kevin_Kofler> So, s/Developer/KDE Developer/ ?
15:20:13 <rdieter> but like I said, not sure where "contributors" and "upstream developers" fit (Power user?)
15:20:30 <jreznik_q10> sgallagh, your other ideas? I'd like to hear it, I'd like to avoid "it's just another workstation desktop"
15:20:43 <Kevin_Kofler> That'd obviously include the upstream KDE Developers, but I'd phrase it to also include people developing FOR KDE.
15:20:45 <ltinkl> jreznik_q10: it's clearly not :)
15:21:03 * rdieter could frankly care less worrying about too much overlap with other products, at least for now.
15:21:15 <jreznik_q10> Or scientific / edu / lab developers?
15:21:23 <ltinkl> idd, there will always be "certain" overlap
15:21:23 <Kevin_Kofler> And my changes should reduce the overlap with Workstation anyway.
15:21:37 <jreznik_q10> ltinkl, yes, there will be
15:21:42 <rdieter> since other "products" aren't currently including any kde technology at all by default
15:21:54 <Kevin_Kofler> It's clear that the way they're written NOW, Content Creator and Developer are bad, they're copy&paste from Workstation!
15:22:08 <jreznik_q10> rdieter, it's not about technology but use cases
15:22:26 <rdieter> jreznik_q10: yes, but that's the real reason we are producing a separate product, to be honest
15:22:27 <Martix> my idea is to include software from Scientific, Electronic and Robotics spins on live media a provide them optionally during installation
15:22:38 <Kevin_Kofler> jreznik_q10: No other spin has anything comparable to Krita.
15:23:00 <ltinkl> or K3b, or Digikam for that matter :)
15:23:01 <Kevin_Kofler> Arguably not even to KDevelop, though there's Eclipse out there.
15:23:29 <Kevin_Kofler> That's what I'm saying we have to offer to content creators resp. developers.
15:23:37 <jreznik_q10> Kevin_Kofler there are no content creators included in WS PRD:(
15:23:42 <Kevin_Kofler> For developers, we also have the platform.
15:23:53 <Kevin_Kofler> jreznik_q10: One more reason to include them here. :-)
15:23:58 <Kevin_Kofler> Focusing on Krita.
15:24:03 <ltinkl> tbh, I don't see much difference between Content Creators and Scientists
15:24:21 <ltinkl> writing prose or handbooks is not that different technically
15:24:36 <jreznik_q10> We can pass it to FESCo and see what they think
15:24:40 <Kevin_Kofler> But the way it's written now, it advertises things I'm not sure we can offer.
15:24:53 <jreznik_q10> Just after following all discussion...
15:25:00 <jreznik_q10> I'm maybe too paranoid
15:25:05 <sgallagh> jreznik_q10: Sorry, I'm only watching with half an eye. Server WG meeting concurrent.
15:25:07 <Kevin_Kofler> What apps are we targeting at musicians?
15:25:32 <Kevin_Kofler> (This is also why I'm saying a list of concrete apps would be helpful.)
15:25:33 <ltinkl> Kevin_Kofler: do we rosegarden?
15:25:43 <Kevin_Kofler> It's in the repos, yes.
15:26:02 <Kevin_Kofler> It's Qt-only, but at least it uses Qt.
15:26:28 <ltinkl> there's actually a lot of Qt-based software around Jack
15:26:29 <jreznik_q10> Well we have limits on what we can really support
15:26:44 <ltinkl> I know a friend of mine uses a lot of those
15:26:49 <ltinkl> can't recall the names
15:26:52 <Kevin_Kofler> The main worry with all the music apps are that they're built around JACK which conflicts with PulseAudio.
15:27:05 <Kevin_Kofler> And we definitely do want to support PulseAudio as our main sound system.
15:27:06 <ltinkl> right...
15:27:23 <Kevin_Kofler> Also, many of the audio apps are not Qt/KDE based.
15:27:32 <Kevin_Kofler> Some are, like Rosegarden.
15:27:55 <Kevin_Kofler> (also things like qjackctl, but those are not really standalone apps)
15:28:10 <danofsatx-work> oh, this is the KDE meeting? Sorry I'm late....
15:28:16 * danofsatx-work reads backlog to catch up
15:28:55 <Kevin_Kofler> For developers, as I said, the main thing we can offer is our frameworks, then KDevelop.
15:29:17 <ltinkl> ok, the musicians' case is certainly a bit technically complicated, let's postpone that after meeting
15:29:25 <ltinkl> Kevin_Kofler: agree
15:29:34 <Kevin_Kofler> For content creator vs. scientist, I don't think there's all that much overlap.
15:30:01 <ltinkl> yup
15:30:01 <Kevin_Kofler> Most scientists are not going to draw things in Krita. Most content creators are not going to type things in Kile.
15:30:02 <tosky> kile, at most
15:30:08 <tosky> eh
15:30:13 <Kevin_Kofler> Some will.
15:30:23 <Kevin_Kofler> Professional tech writers, mainly.
15:30:46 <ltinkl> there's lyx too
15:30:56 <Kevin_Kofler> Authors will want something like Calligra Words, LibreOffice Writer, or that new app designed specially for them (was it called "Author"? I don't remember).
15:31:05 <Kevin_Kofler> (Authors of literature, I mean here.)
15:31:15 <tosky> Kevin_Kofler: Calligra Author, yes
15:31:35 <ltinkl> ye, lyx is mainly targetted at technical writers
15:31:41 <Kevin_Kofler> And most graphics designers, musicians etc. sure won't be interested in LaTeX.
15:32:00 <Kevin_Kofler> If they type up text at all, it will be in a word processor (Calligra Words or LO Writer).
15:32:32 <Kevin_Kofler> Anyway, I have to leave now. rdieter, I think you too. ;-)
15:33:38 <ltinkl> ok, that's it I guess for the PRD, I'll edit it accordingly and ask for more feedback later today or tomorrow
15:33:43 <ltinkl> rdieter: your topic? :)
15:37:56 <ltinkl> #topic KDE 4.12.90 status update
15:38:30 <rdieter> ok, just got baloo (and friends) reviewed, and should hopefully finish up importing 4.12.90 into rawhide later today
15:38:53 <rdieter> thats about it
15:38:58 <jgrulich> rdieter: there are no translations for baloo-widgets?
15:39:01 <rdieter> no
15:39:11 <rdieter> I assume those will be in kde-l10n
15:39:17 <rdieter> like all other kde modules do
15:39:23 <jgrulich> rdieter: ah, ok :)
15:39:36 * rdieter goes afk
15:39:55 <ltinkl> any other topic we want to discuss today?
15:40:02 <ltinkl> otherwise open ground
15:40:56 <ltinkl> #topic Open discussion
15:43:32 <ltinkl> ok, looks like there's nothing else to discuss, thanks for attending!
15:43:35 <ltinkl> #endmeeting