08:02:22 <jzb> #startmeeting
08:02:22 <zodbot_> Meeting started Thu May  1 14:02:21 2014 UTC.  The chair is jzb. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
08:02:22 <zodbot_> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
08:02:43 <jzb> chair mattdm red_trela rbergeron number80 samkottler geppetto
08:02:47 <jzb> er
08:02:54 <jzb> #chair mattdm red_trela rbergeron number80 samkottler geppetto
08:02:54 <zodbot_> Current chairs: geppetto jzb mattdm number80 rbergeron red_trela samkottler
08:03:05 <jzb> so early, such meeting, wow
08:03:11 <jzb> roll call?
08:03:14 <jzb> .fasinfo jzb
08:04:19 * red_trela 
08:05:04 <red_trela> well, the others sure have a short attention span
08:05:20 <jsmith> .fasinfo jsmith
08:05:47 * jzb wonders why that's not working
08:05:48 * mattdm is back
08:05:50 <mattdm> sorry
08:06:08 * danofsatx-work has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
08:06:10 <jsmith> Looks like zodbot is asleep on the job :-p
08:06:21 <jzb> well, let's get started...
08:06:21 <mattdm> .hellomynameis mattdm
08:06:50 * danofsatx-work (~danofsatx@fedora/danofsatx) has joined
08:07:23 <jzb> #topic Crucial basic Docket Host Image decisions
08:07:36 <jzb> #info https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/47
08:07:38 <jzb> this is ticket 47, filed by red_trela
08:08:05 <jzb> red_trela: you want to start the discussion?
08:08:09 <mattdm> pasting from ticket:
08:08:13 <mattdm> Whether to use (rpm-)ostree (aka Fedora Atomic Initiative)
08:08:16 <mattdm> Whether to remove yum/dnf (if going with ostree)
08:08:18 <mattdm> Whether to replace cloud-init by coreos' cloud-init or min-metadata-service
08:08:20 <mattdm> Whether to kick out python (if we decided against yum/dnf and cloud-init)
08:08:32 * zodbot_ has changed the topic to: Crucial basic Docket Host Image decisions
08:08:56 <number80> hi
08:08:58 <mattdm> oh hai zodbot_
08:09:08 <red_trela> sure
08:09:42 <number80> i thought we were talking about dockah
08:09:45 <red_trela> so there's those 4 rather crucial decisions that we should make regarding the Docker Host Image (which is not the Atomic Image or whatever).
08:09:52 * mattdm nods
08:10:10 * rbergeron migrates to awakeishness
08:10:10 <jzb> red_trela: do we want a non-Atomic docker host image?
08:10:43 <mattdm> jzb I think that we want to make sure that the generic image can be used that way if desired
08:10:44 <red_trela> uhm, do we? I thought we made the docker host image the atomic image last week - or did we just add an image?
08:11:08 <number80> i'm confused
08:11:12 * danofsatx-work has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
08:11:14 <mattdm> and as red_trela says, _the" docker host image should be Fedora Atomic.
08:11:16 <geppetto> red_trela: yeh, we all voted for 46 I thought
08:11:36 <mattdm> so I think the first point is confirmed. the rest are followups from there really
08:11:44 <red_trela> mattdm: exactly
08:11:49 * danofsatx-work (~danofsatx@fedora/danofsatx) has joined
08:11:52 <number80> ok
08:12:10 <geppetto> I think #2 and #4 pretty much follow on … there's little point in keeping yum/dnf if the host is managed by ostree
08:12:14 <red_trela> unless someone thinks we should vote on whether or not doing both (atomic and non-atomic) docker host images - current status is atomic only
08:12:35 <number80> +1 about removing python and its dependencies
08:12:56 <geppetto> #3 I'm not as sure about … someone want to bring up the pros. cons. of cloud-init with ostree?
08:13:07 <number80> but i don't think it's feasible before f22
08:13:09 <jzb> geppetto: eventually rpm-ostree is supposed to allow installing packages
08:13:13 * m00g (~m00g@190.79.108.233) has joined
08:13:16 <mattdm> let's do these in order?
08:13:27 <jzb> not sure if that will be in the F21 timeframe or not, but we should check in with Colin about that.
08:13:36 <mattdm> #1 I think we're all agreed on. So moving on to #2...
08:13:40 <geppetto> jzb: yeh, but it's doing so via. ostree which links to libhawkey
08:13:53 <geppetto> jzb: 3 package managers in F22 ftw :)
08:13:56 <mattdm> And I agree that yum/dnf don't make sense in ostree. in fact they are likely to break stuff.
08:14:20 <mattdm> unless geppetto says otherwise :)
08:14:26 <geppetto> no, I agree
08:14:44 <mattdm> anyone _not_ agree?
08:15:11 <mattdm> the sound of crickets is assent!
08:15:36 <red_trela> so, do we vote on that or is no opposition good enough to go with it?
08:15:47 <mattdm> #agreed fedora atomic docker-specific image will not include yum/dnf
08:15:57 * drieden (~drieden@host-69-95-41-10.spr.choiceone.net) has joined
08:16:05 <mattdm> red_trela I'm good with no opposition -- that's basically our governance plan
08:16:12 * danofsatx-work has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
08:16:48 <mattdm> so cloud init is more controversial.
08:16:49 * danofsatx-work (~danofsatx@fedora/danofsatx) has joined
08:17:03 <red_trela> so the next point would once again be cloud-init. I figure we already had this topic a short while ago and I think someone wanted to bring it to the list?
08:17:09 <red_trela> (also once again)
08:17:17 <mattdm> I know samkottler was just very recently saying he was interested in trying to make it work
08:17:38 <red_trela> make min-metadata-service work, that is, right?
08:17:38 <mattdm> From the previous discussion, sdake isn't concerned about heat requirements for the docker-specific image
08:17:53 <mattdm> red_trela yes
08:18:20 <mattdm> proposal: try it for alpha, fall back to cloud-init for beta if it doesn't work out
08:18:33 <jzb> +1
08:18:37 <mattdm> and keep cloud-init in the generic image
08:19:01 <jsmith> +1 from me
08:19:06 <mattdm> the downside is... two things. counterbalanced by one really eing a subset of the other
08:19:36 <number80> i think i alreadt requested an account on fedora cloud for developping min-metadata-service but having it in f21 is very optimistic
08:19:57 <red_trela> I'm still not very convinced min-metadata-service is the best alternative, but I'm +1 to try any alternative ;)
08:20:16 <number80> -1
08:20:19 <mattdm> number80 what are the concerns?
08:20:42 <number80> making it work with aws, openstavk, requires a lot of testing
08:21:13 * danofsatx-work has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
08:21:13 <mattdm> another argument for it in my mind is that many of the things one could do with cloud-init are things one _shouldn't_ do with atomic
08:21:14 * itamar_ (~itamar@189-015-174-009.xd-dynamic.ctbcnetsuper.com.br) has joined
08:21:31 <mattdm> (like, install and configure packages)
08:21:31 * roshi walks in late
08:21:50 * danofsatx-work (~danofsatx@fedora/danofsatx) has joined
08:22:15 <mattdm> number80 we've got a little while before we _really_ have to decide for alpha ... do you want to defer the decision to closer to then to see how it is looking?
08:22:42 <number80> sure, we have many things running
08:22:54 <mattdm> okay, so:
08:22:57 <number80> (sorry for th slow typing)
08:22:59 * danofsatx-work has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
08:23:25 <mattdm> proposal: defer min-metadata-service til closer to alpha, encourage people interested in it to continue development
08:23:37 <rbergeron> number80: are those concerns for just the docker host image? or is that "if we tried to make it work for the generic image"
08:24:22 <red_trela> the thing really is, the last point (removing python) really depends on this - and doing that last-minute might not work well
08:24:58 <red_trela> putting python/cloud-init back in last-minute on the other hand, should be much less troublesome
08:25:19 <mattdm> good point red_trela
08:25:23 <rbergeron> mattdm: defer it .. but not for generic image, that's comfirmed to stay w/cloud-init as we kust discussed. yes?
08:25:37 <red_trela> (just hoping I'm not summoning trouble here)
08:25:48 <mattdm> rbergeron yes.
08:26:22 <number80> rbergeron: both
08:26:26 <mattdm> and _especially_ since we are (resigned to?) keeping cloud-init in the generic image, we'll know that switching back to that should work.
08:26:28 <rbergeron> okay. just making sure - we just listed out a long list of options ;)
08:26:47 <number80> i'd like to see more advancements before taking a decision
08:27:19 <number80> i'll change my vote +0 ;)
08:27:54 <rbergeron> (also, i need sdake to bring me lunch today and cannot jeopardizr that. no, no, just kidding)
08:28:26 <red_trela> so, let's go with mattdm's proposal?
08:28:45 <mattdm> red_trela the defer one or the first one?
08:28:58 <red_trela> the try it for alpha one
08:29:09 <mattdm> I'm still +1 :)
08:29:29 * satellit (~Thomas@c-174-61-128-216.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) has joined
08:29:31 * zodbot_ is now known as zodbot
08:29:36 <red_trela> everyone is +1 or +0, so next :)
08:29:44 * zodbot has quit (Disconnected by services)
08:29:56 <mattdm> #agreed try min-metadata-service for fedora atomic image for alpha, fall back to cloud-init for beta if it doesn't work out
08:30:09 <red_trela> anyone opposed to kicking out python, if we really go without cloud-init?
08:30:13 <geppetto> I'll be +1 to then, so I can be everyone :)
08:30:27 <mattdm> #info cloud-init to stay for general-purpose cloud base image
08:30:28 <number80> +1 for kicking snakes
08:30:36 <geppetto> die python die
08:30:52 <mattdm> I love python, but let's get the scripting langages out of the minimal image
08:31:10 <mattdm> (die, javascript policykit requirement, die)
08:31:11 * pwhalen has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
08:31:25 * Renault (~Renault@AToulon-651-1-181-77.w83-113.abo.wanadoo.fr) has joined
08:31:30 <number80> js no language, js plague
08:31:30 <red_trela> currently, python is required by yum/dnf, cloud-init and nfs-utils only I think. so we already voted to (try) kick out most of those and the part of nfs-utils that need python can be put in a subpackage
08:32:04 <mattdm> red_trela yeah.
08:32:06 <red_trela> ...I opened a ticket in that regard weeks ago and haven't heard back, but it should be a easy fix
08:33:28 <mattdm> okay, so, any disagreement with this general route, assuming the prereqs line up?
08:34:32 <jzb> none here
08:34:36 <mattdm> #agreed aim for getting python out of the fedora atomic image too, if all of the previous things line up.
08:35:04 * zodbot_ (supybot@fedora/bot/zodbot) has joined
08:35:18 <red_trela> great, that's all for this ticket :)
08:37:02 * jeid64 (~jeid64@youngmoney.rc.rit.edu) has joined
08:37:17 * aeperezt (~aeperezt@fedora/aeperezt) has joined
08:37:22 <mattdm> moar tickets?
08:37:47 <jzb> #topic Spins Process for Cloud Images
08:37:53 <jzb> #info https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/49
08:37:54 * egyDev has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
08:37:59 * jzb wonders what happened to the bot
08:38:17 * egyDev (~araby@fedora/ahmed-araby) has joined
08:38:30 <roshi> bots have been slow lately, I've noticed
08:39:13 <mattdm> nirik mentioned that he was restarting something. but apparently the wiki is also broken
08:39:53 <mattdm> so anyway, I'm totally okay with the cloud image variants being spins, as long as the policies can be made flexible
08:39:53 <jzb> ok, anyway
08:39:58 <red_trela> this ticket is just to make sure everyone is okay if we try to follow the spins process for the cloud images as closely as possible/reasonable
08:40:06 <mattdm> the current policies are very focused on livecds
08:40:22 <mattdm> it basically makes sense to not reinvent the wheel
08:40:46 <jzb> mattdm: so how many "spins" are we going to need to create?
08:41:09 <geppetto> seems fine to me (knowing nothing about the processes :)
08:41:15 <mattdm> jzb as of now: Fedora Cloud Base, Fedora Atomic, Fedora Big Data Cloud Image
08:41:45 <mattdm> with the possibility of the big data one breaking into two for some different cases
08:42:00 <jzb> K
08:42:30 <jzb> so we're good on this ticket?
08:42:39 <mattdm> I am
08:42:48 <jzb> we should probably come up with tickets for each spin we need, yes?
08:43:58 <number80> ok
08:44:15 * suresht has quit (Quit: Leaving)
08:44:16 <red_trela> jzb: yes
08:44:20 <jzb> hokay
08:44:27 <red_trela> some administrative stuff to do for each image
08:44:28 <jzb> #action jzb to create tickets for each Cloud Spin required.
08:44:35 <jzb> admin stuff I can do :-)
08:44:39 * pwhalen (~pwhalen@unaffiliated/pwhalen) has joined
08:44:40 <jeid64> Sounds good.
08:44:41 * somvannda (~somvannda@120.136.30.97) has joined
08:44:51 <mattdm> jzb see also https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/50
08:44:59 <jzb> #topic Deliverables and release engineering changes for Fedora.Next
08:45:02 <mattdm> right. :)
08:45:08 <jzb> mattdm: indeed ;-)
08:45:11 <mattdm> this is really the same thing we just talked about, in retrospect :)
08:45:21 <jzb> mattdm: you want to update the ticket?
08:45:49 * hanthana (~danishka@2404:e800:ea26:88:2216:d8ff:fe06:d27d) has joined
08:46:00 <mattdm> yeah. what I'll do is wait for you to make the new tickets just mentioned, and then close this one, and link to your new tickets in the rel-eng ticket
08:46:04 <mattdm> ticket ticket ticket ticket.
08:46:15 <jzb> that's the ticket</lovitz>
08:46:30 * fabian_a (~fab@147.87.243.63) has joined
08:46:30 <mattdm> #action mattdm to update rel-eng trac with cloud spin links
08:46:37 <jzb> #topic start communication/collaboration on cloud image updates
08:46:42 <jzb> this is ticket 51
08:46:50 <jzb> #info https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/51
08:47:02 * mattdm looks away
08:48:04 <mattdm> well, don't *everybody* look away!
08:48:26 * samkottler is here, sorry I'm late
08:48:31 <number80> i can look, not touch ;)
08:48:43 <jzb> mattdm: I can put together a policy proposal on off-cycle updates
08:48:47 <mattdm> hi samkottler! how's the electricity?
08:48:55 <jzb> mattdm: I assume "off-cycle" means "between releases"?
08:49:06 <mattdm> jzb that would be awesome. and, yes, that's what I meant.
08:49:11 <mattdm> it may not be the best term
08:49:14 <roshi> I touched on this in the QA docs draft
08:49:23 * RGeri77 has quit (Quit: Még visszatérek........)
08:49:46 <mattdm> roshi thanks! there's obviously a lot of qa-related stuff here
08:49:50 <jzb> #action come up with policy for updates
08:50:12 <roshi> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Roshi/QA/Cloud_Docs  under Test Overview
08:50:28 <samkottler> mattdm: good enough ;-)
08:50:51 * pwhalen has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
08:51:27 <jzb> who's going to take on "QA contribution (commitments to help with the automation and possible manual testing)"
08:51:33 <jzb> and "release engineering help"
08:51:34 <jzb> ?
08:52:55 <mattdm> I can commit to help some, but I can't commit to being the lead on it -- need to have at least one other person really excited about this
08:53:12 <roshi> I'll help with the testing for sure as I continue to get spun up on all the cloudy things
08:53:41 <jzb> mattdm: well, I'm excited, but probably not the best person to be doing those things
08:53:47 <red_trela> I'd love to, but my plate is already very full so I really can't take on any more
08:53:49 <mattdm> roshi -- do you want to put yourself down as the lead for this? alternately or additionally, I can take an action item to search out more interest
08:54:29 * adimania has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
08:55:06 <roshi> that could work
08:55:19 * roshi wonders what he just got himself into
08:55:27 <roshi> :)
08:55:29 <mattdm> roshi it'll be fine. mwahhahahahaha. :)
08:55:53 <red_trela> proposal: put even more on roshi's plate, he's an easy victim :)
08:56:02 <mattdm> hopefully once we get the framework right it'll be easy for new volunteers to plug into and helpp
08:56:13 <roshi> the plate is a lie
08:56:49 <red_trela> if it's a lie, we know for sure it can't be full
08:57:10 <roshi> so you don't already have a "very full" plate then? :p
08:57:55 <roshi> but yeah, that should work on my end as I want to learn more cloud-related things
08:58:12 * satellit has quit (Read error: Connection timed out)
08:58:15 <roshi> thought, at this point I don't know what I can do to help with the "release engineering help."
08:58:22 <roshi> s/thought/though
08:58:49 <red_trela> anyway, are there any seriously pressing matters? Otherwise I'd ask to adjourn the meeting as the hour is over in a moment and I need my sleep ;)
08:59:24 <jzb> I think we're good unless anyone has new business
08:59:26 <roshi> the only question I have is regarding feedback on the QA docs - is what I wrote out what we had in mind?
08:59:49 <roshi> I sent the email out last week per the action item, but didn't really hear anything back
09:00:21 <red_trela> roshi: terribly sorry, I couldn't find the time to look at them yet but I'm having a long weekend so I'll try really hard to have a good look :)
09:00:27 <mattdm> roshi It's... um, on my plate to look at it.
09:00:41 <mattdm> yeah, what red_trela said :)
09:00:49 <roshi> that's fine - just checking
09:00:51 <jzb> roshi: I'll also review this weekend
09:01:03 <jzb> roshi: for the first time in a few weeks, I actually will be home for a full week.
09:01:05 <roshi> I assumed no-news was good news, but wanted to confirm it :)
09:01:23 <jzb> OK
09:01:26 <mattdm> on another note, google people are still asking about our interest in gce
09:01:38 <jzb> mattdm: what do we need to provide there?
09:01:59 * fol_tempus has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
09:01:59 <mattdm> jzb not exactly sure. I *think* we have cloud-init working?
09:02:09 <mattdm> that's one of the RFEs for min-metadata-service too
09:02:25 <mattdm> and given that, I think we just need someone to work with them and with release engineering to get it into place
09:02:38 <mattdm> at _least_ as an F21 deliverable
09:02:45 <roshi> what do you need to know as a baseline to help out with that?
09:02:51 <red_trela> it's just hard to do without a gce test account
09:02:52 <mattdm> and maybe something semi-official (as with docker) before that
09:03:08 <roshi> gce would be a good target to have images/whatever for - since devs will almost certainly be playing with it
09:03:12 <mattdm> red_trela I think we can hook those up.
09:03:27 * fol_tempus (~tempus@gateway/tor-sasl/foltempus) has joined
09:03:40 <jzb> mattdm: maybe if we dangle the test account on list we can get someone to step up?
09:03:46 <jzb> s/the/a/
09:03:54 <mattdm> jzb maybe, yeah. samkottler you still around?
09:04:04 * pwhalen (~pwhalen@unaffiliated/pwhalen) has joined
09:04:15 <samkottler> yep
09:04:18 <jzb> mattdm: I can understand why folks might be reluctant to volunteer if they feel they have to pay out of pocket to do the testing.
09:04:37 <mattdm> jzb yeah. samkottler do you know the state of the gce stuff better than i do?
09:04:39 <samkottler> jzb: GCE has offered us at least one testing account so if someone leads the charge they will get comped
09:04:54 <mattdm> so maybe we just need to say that on the list?
09:04:57 <red_trela> how does gce not have to go through legal as hp cloud does?
09:04:59 <samkottler> the main blocker to GCE is getting the tools packaged up
09:05:00 <mattdm> I know zooz was doing some work
09:05:10 <samkottler> red_trela: it has already gone through legal
09:05:15 <samkottler> and they cleared it
09:05:25 <red_trela> oh
09:05:29 <samkottler> the response was basically 'people can choose to sign the NDA if they please'
09:05:35 <red_trela> that was fast
09:05:53 <samkottler> red_trela: it happened months ago
09:06:18 <red_trela> well, missed that then, sorry
09:06:31 <red_trela> hp cloud is still stuck, though?
09:06:47 <mattdm> red_trela yes. and I pinged again recently.
09:07:26 * satellit_ (~Thomas@c-174-61-128-216.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) has joined
09:07:35 <samkottler> HP do at least build images already though, right?
09:07:50 <samkottler> just not *our* images
09:08:25 <red_trela> I think so
09:08:43 <mattdm> yes. in fact, they basically _do_ use our images with little modification
09:08:45 <mattdm> this is awesome.
09:08:53 <red_trela> but hp cloud would be the best spot to do generic latest-openstack testing :)
09:08:56 <samkottler> they're a very custom openstack cloud and I think they add their agent to our images
09:09:14 <mattdm> (they might do that, with the agent.)
09:10:25 <jzb> OK, so are we good with GCE?
09:10:38 <jzb> do we have an #action?
09:11:19 * satellit_e (~satellit@2601:8:8800:62a:255b:717c:55ca:d531) has joined
09:13:07 <number80> ?
09:13:08 <jzb> mattdm: ^^
09:13:26 <mattdm> jzb i guess.....
09:13:38 * itamar_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
09:13:50 <mattdm> #action mattdm to post about gce on cloud list, get right people connected
09:13:57 * vpavlin (~vpavlin@194.228.13.64) has joined
09:14:24 <jzb> OK, I think we're ready to adjourn
09:14:27 <jzb> any -1's to that?
09:14:35 <roshi> not from me
09:15:21 <number80> none
09:15:31 <jzb> OK
09:15:33 <jzb> thanks all
09:15:36 <jzb> #endmeeting