06:03:03 <tagoh_> #startmeeting i18n
06:03:03 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Jun 25 06:03:03 2014 UTC.  The chair is tagoh_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
06:03:03 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
06:03:04 <tagoh_> #meetingname i18n
06:03:04 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'i18n'
06:03:04 <tagoh_> #topic agenda and roll call
06:03:04 <tagoh_> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/I18N/Meetings/2014-06-25
06:03:11 <epico> hi
06:03:11 <mfabian> Hi!
06:03:13 <pravins> hi
06:03:22 <tagoh_> hi guys
06:03:24 <fujiwarat> hi
06:04:48 <juhp> hi
06:05:26 <anish_> Hi
06:06:07 <tagoh_> okay, let's get started.
06:06:24 <tagoh_> #topic Upcoming schedule
06:06:25 <tagoh_> #info no earlier than 2014-07-08        Changes Freeze--Planning & Development Ends
06:06:25 <tagoh_> #info no earlier than 2014-07-08        Branch Fedora 21 from Rawhide
06:06:25 <tagoh_> #info no earlier than 2014-07-22        Software String Freeze
06:06:26 <tagoh_> #info no earlier than 2014-07-22        Alpha Change Deadline
06:07:01 <tagoh_> anything we may want to follow up on the schedule?
06:07:48 <juhp> though I would be surprised if there is a some slip on Alpha, the impression I get is that better to consider it just as s/no earlier than // :)
06:07:55 <juhp> not be surprised
06:08:16 <juhp> at this point
06:08:54 <juhp> ie I think we should expect Changes Freeze and Branching to start on in less than 2 weeks
06:09:35 <paragan> hi
06:09:49 <tagoh_> I saw email on the fltg list that they are begining to discuss the test day schedule based on it.
06:10:26 <tagoh_> so we should start with it too at this moment perhaps.
06:11:16 <juhp> aha
06:13:02 <tagoh_> anything else? if not, move on then.
06:13:59 <juhp> any tentative dates?
06:15:11 <tagoh_> AFAIK there no pages for f21 test days. they are assuming the release schedule may be just s/no earlier than//
06:15:53 <tagoh_> even if not, it can be rescheduled later I guess.
06:16:45 <juhp> okay
06:17:09 <juhp> "before Beta" ?
06:17:47 <juhp> anyway we could discuss with the QA and L10n teams
06:18:00 <tagoh_> before beta yes
06:18:04 <juhp> ok good
06:18:16 <juhp> just not too much before :)
06:20:12 <tagoh_> okay, let's move on
06:20:24 <tagoh_> #topic Outstanding topic
06:20:25 <tagoh_> #info #26: proposal: IM and xkb UI design improvements (petersen)
06:20:25 <tagoh_> #link https://fedorahosted.org/i18n/ticket/26
06:20:40 <juhp> ah yes thanks....
06:20:52 <tagoh_> just wonder if we should follow up on it today...
06:21:03 <juhp> I was just thinking about this too earlier
06:21:13 <juhp> probably i should have asked for help before
06:22:27 <tagoh_> aha
06:23:30 <juhp> my plan was to test the main ibus IMEs in rawhide and file files to improve/streamline the menus - of course anyone could help with that
06:23:36 <juhp> file bugs
06:24:06 <juhp> I think I started and then got sidetracked with some other (related) issues etc
06:24:40 <juhp> maybe more fun would be to do it together...
06:24:51 <juhp> any suggestions?
06:26:01 <anish_> juhp, what exactly you want to do
06:26:14 <juhp> I will try to take some action this week - I need to install a fresh rawhide WS to test some things anyway
06:27:05 <juhp> anish_, I don't think typing-booster has many menu items for example
06:27:45 <anish_> juhp, ohh okay sure i can help you with that
06:27:46 <juhp> I think the main targets were ja and zh probably
06:28:39 <mfabian> Typing booster has no menus at all. ibus-table has a lot, but most of them are somehow useful.
06:28:54 <juhp> maybe I will try to ping IME guys while I am testing - but proaction on this would also be fine
06:28:59 <juhp> mfabian, right
06:29:45 <tagoh_> yeah, that sounds good.
06:29:49 <juhp> ok
06:31:51 <tagoh_> okay, anything else?
06:32:28 <juhp> (one of the issues was about about gnome vs non-gnome menu iirc)
06:32:59 <tagoh_> indeed
06:34:56 <juhp> if I am not sure I may open bugs anyway to review the menus
06:35:09 <tagoh_> do we need to discuss about it separately? or in the meeting another day?
06:35:14 <juhp> it will be useful anyway to have the selection documented somewhere
06:35:23 <juhp> good question
06:35:33 <juhp> let's see maybe?
06:36:36 <tagoh_> sure
06:36:39 <juhp> it might be an idea though to look at home to bring/keep gnome/non-gnome ibus closer
06:36:46 <juhp> s/home/how
06:37:32 <juhp> though the IME mode display was part of that :)
06:38:28 <tagoh_> okay. then may be good to keep the discussion for that.
06:38:46 <juhp> yeah or a new ticket perhaps...
06:39:29 <tagoh_> works for me either.
06:39:36 <mfabian> The floating panel of ibus in non-Gnome desktops is quite useful I think, it is a pity that this is not available in Gnome.
06:40:05 <epico> mfabian, +1
06:40:22 <juhp> I see
06:40:50 <juhp> that might be a topic to bring up with the desktop team
06:41:12 <epico> yeah
06:41:28 <anish_> floating panel would it useful only for ja or za
06:41:40 <juhp> right
06:41:48 <juhp> I don't use it myself
06:42:17 <juhp> fujiwarat, it is not possible to use on gnome currently?
06:42:30 <epico> just because of user customs.
06:42:51 <juhp> right
06:43:00 <juhp> anyway probably we should move on?
06:43:46 <juhp> mfabian, you mean for ibus-table or ?
06:43:47 <mfabian> Like in ibus-table, there is the switch for the 5 Chinese modes. In the floating panel, it is easy to click it it 4 times to go from mode 0 (simplified) to mode 4 (all characters). Opening the panel menu 4 times is tedious.
06:43:54 <tagoh_> yep. shall we have another time for this discussion later
06:44:18 <juhp> mfabian, right the floating UI is the original one - IMHO the menu is still a kind of quasi-hack sometimes
06:44:22 <juhp> sure
06:44:42 <tagoh_> #topic New topic
06:44:42 <tagoh_> #info #30: review Workstation Technical Specification for i18n (petersen)
06:44:42 <tagoh_> #link https://fedorahosted.org/i18n/ticket/30
06:45:02 <juhp> mfabian, I would rather fix the menu UI though really :)
06:45:11 <tagoh_> so it is the main topic in today's meeting I think..
06:45:50 <juhp> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Workstation/Technical_Specification
06:45:55 <mfabian> juhp: That would make it even longer though, the 5 modes would become a submenu like in kkc.
06:46:29 <mfabian> (Would be easier to understand, but take up more room in the menu)
06:46:39 <juhp> mfabian, if we can fix it so that is it not longer etc :)
06:47:06 <juhp> s/is it/it is/
06:47:07 <juhp> anyway
06:47:26 <juhp> hope some of you have looked the WS Tech Spec - I know it is a bit late
06:47:55 <juhp> but it occurred to me that it would be useful to review the current doc from the point of view of i18n
06:48:48 <juhp> hopefully you have also seen the original http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Workstation/Workstation_PRD which gives more background
06:48:58 <mfabian> Which ibus packages should be in the core package list? Is it OK that ibus-typing-booster is missing? And ibus-cangjie or ibus-table?
06:49:45 <juhp> good question - I would save major default IMEs
06:49:49 <juhp> would say
06:50:25 <juhp> So perhaps not ibus-typing-booster currently
06:50:26 <mfabian> Is Cangjie a major default IME?
06:50:39 <mfabian> For Hongkong it probably is.
06:50:43 <juhp> table and cangjie might be worth considering
06:50:56 <epico> ibus-table also has cangjie, iirc.
06:51:01 <juhp> probably we need some criteria for this
06:51:08 <mfabian> Yes, and cangjie in ibus-table is a lot improved now.
06:51:14 <juhp> aha
06:51:39 <juhp> that maybe good to include table at least perhaps - how big is ibus-table-chinese?
06:52:29 <mfabian> All Chinese tables = 13M
06:53:00 <juhp> currently ko is not listed on top of gnome-initial-setup etc?
06:53:26 * anish_ woders what's wrong with internet connection
06:53:40 <mfabian> (packed in the rpms one table is about 2M, installed about 6M)
06:53:48 <juhp> anish_, quite a lot apparently :)
06:54:06 <juhp> mfabian, right and we probably don't need to install all...
06:54:25 <tagoh_> no plans to make sub-packages?
06:54:27 <juhp> I think we need to talk to mclasen etc about @fonts
06:54:37 <mfabian> Maybe only wubi because pwu said it is used a lot.
06:54:37 <juhp> tagoh_, they already are
06:54:45 <juhp> right
06:54:57 <mfabian> and maybe ibus-cangjie for Cangjie.
06:55:16 <juhp> mfabian, sounds reasonable to me
06:56:04 <juhp> I guess the other approach would be to go more by the langpacks approach
06:56:17 <mfabian> pwu: which variant of wubi is used most? We have wubi-haifeng86 and wubi-jidian86
06:56:37 <tagoh_> juhp: aha
06:57:02 <epico> mfabian, I am not sure, maybe haifeng86...
06:57:09 <epico> or have some survey for it.
06:57:32 <juhp> are they quite different?
06:57:41 <epico> not
06:57:44 <juhp> ok
06:57:50 <epico> all based on wubi 86 edition.
06:58:00 <epico> with some extents.
06:58:05 <juhp> ok
06:58:29 <juhp> good if we could pick one I guess
06:58:55 * epico not sure about which one now.
07:00:21 <juhp> epico, if you could find out that would be great to know
07:00:32 <epico> sure
07:01:02 <epico> will send email to fedora chinese.
07:01:10 <tagoh_> anyway, back to the topic... good to have a time to review the tech spec until the next meeting and if there are anything, please bring it up there.
07:01:12 <juhp> "TODO: Add fonts"  I believe it is planned to add more fonts to the list
07:01:47 <juhp> tagoh_, right or even earlier perhaps since Feature Freeze is approaching
07:02:05 <tagoh_> less time to discuss it here apparently.
07:02:38 <tagoh_> juhp: sure. so by this week maybe good then? and add a comment on the ticket please.
07:02:38 <juhp> perhaps we should also look at the Server and Cloud docs since there could also be different i18n concerns there
07:02:46 <juhp> tagoh_, thanks
07:03:03 <tagoh_> aha
07:03:32 <juhp> note that the Spec is not just F21 but also longer term plan
07:03:45 <juhp> eg Wayland
07:04:03 <tagoh_> I see
07:04:04 <juhp> I also wanted to mention http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Workstation/Tasklist
07:04:14 <juhp> I think we should get involved in that
07:05:35 <juhp> I suggested to ueno he should talk to Rui Matos and work together on Wayland input since he has been thinking a lot about that already
07:06:11 <juhp> any other immediate concerns on the WS Spec?
07:08:22 <juhp> I just received the Tasklist page yesterday
07:08:42 <tagoh_> aha
07:08:59 <juhp> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Workstation/Tasklist#How_to_get_involved
07:09:41 <epico> the touchpad support is listed...
07:10:25 <juhp> epico, right - might not be targeted for F21, not sure
07:10:35 <epico> ah
07:12:17 <juhp> actually I don't know the details
07:12:33 <juhp> maybe I am thinking about wayland
07:12:47 <epico> ok
07:14:05 <tagoh_> okay, anything else?
07:16:03 <tagoh_> #topic Open Floor
07:16:13 <tagoh_> any other topics to discuss before stop the meeting?
07:17:57 <tagoh_> if not, will close the meeting shortly
07:20:54 <tagoh_> okay, thanks everyone for the meeting!
07:21:01 <tagoh_> #endmeeting