15:05:11 <rdieter> #startmeeting kde-sig
15:05:11 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Nov 18 15:05:11 2014 UTC.  The chair is rdieter. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:05:11 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:05:15 <rdieter> #meetingname kde-sig
15:05:15 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'kde-sig'
15:05:18 <rdieter> #topic roll call
15:05:24 * jgrulich is present
15:05:31 <rdieter> hello all, who's present for a friendly kde-sig meeting ?
15:05:32 * donniezazen_ here as spectator.
15:05:35 <tosky> hi
15:06:03 * dvratil is here
15:06:12 <Kevin_Kofler> Present.
15:07:41 <rdieter> than: ping
15:08:01 <rdieter> #info rdieter jgrulich donniezazen_ tosky dvratil Kevin_Kofler present
15:08:09 <rdieter> #chair jgrulich tosky dvratil Kevin_Kofler
15:08:09 <zodbot> Current chairs: Kevin_Kofler dvratil jgrulich rdieter tosky
15:08:37 * ltinkl is here
15:08:43 <rdieter> #info ltinkl present
15:08:44 <rdieter> hello
15:08:47 <rdieter> #chair ltinkl
15:08:47 <zodbot> Current chairs: Kevin_Kofler dvratil jgrulich ltinkl rdieter tosky
15:08:54 <rdieter> #topic agenda
15:09:01 <rdieter> ok, agenda, what to discuss today?
15:09:59 <rdieter> (may be a short meeting :) )
15:10:28 <Kevin_Kofler> Are there any F21 blockers worth discussing?
15:10:31 <jgrulich> what's the status of Plsama 5? May I start doing reviews from https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1135103?
15:11:14 <rdieter> jgrulich: definitely!  I started 2 this morning
15:11:24 * rdieter checks blocker bug
15:11:58 <rdieter> Kevin_Kofler: just the PK/comps thing remaining on the blocker
15:12:14 <Kevin_Kofler> It's only rated as a Freeze Exception, unfortunately. :-(
15:12:35 <Kevin_Kofler> heliocastro is working on it, I'd put up a status update on the agenda, but he's not here today.
15:12:37 <rdieter> that's good enough for me, instaling updates (kinda) works
15:12:58 <rdieter> #topic open discussion
15:13:11 <rdieter> ok, nothing specific, I'll through out some info/announcements
15:13:19 <rdieter> f21 beta is here, test test test
15:13:20 <Kevin_Kofler> Yeah, this can be fixed in an update, so FE is already generous.
15:13:35 <Kevin_Kofler> Blockers are really only intended for what can't be fixed in an update.
15:13:42 <rdieter> fedora council elections are starting, fedora contributors, vote vote vote
15:14:28 <rdieter> http://fedoramagazine.org/category/elections/
15:14:31 * donniezazen_ has exercised his voting rights.
15:14:41 <Kevin_Kofler> Also, Calamares is now in Fedora! (Rawhide only for now, I'm trying to clean up some things before pushing it to F21 updates, and I didn't want an early version in F21 GA that people might then try to use instead of the current one from updates anyway.)
15:15:10 <rdieter> anyone else with quick status updates or announcments are encouraged to share :)
15:16:14 <donniezazen_> I suppose we still don't know what is causing workspace to freeze in F21 which are prevented by disabling desktop effects.
15:16:43 <rdieter> donniezazen_: bug #?
15:16:49 <rdieter> (for meeting logs mostly)
15:19:10 <donniezazen_> .bug 1103496
15:19:12 <zodbot> donniezazen_: Bug 1103496 Installer interface sometimes freezes for a while (but install continues, and screen eventually unfreezes) - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/1103496
15:19:45 <donniezazen_> .bug 1142862
15:19:48 <zodbot> donniezazen_: Bug 1142862 Sometimes the whole desktop or a single app is just a still picture - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/1142862
15:21:17 <rdieter> donniezazen_: the primary symptom there should be fixed by the oxygen-gtk3 update
15:21:39 <rdieter> have you experienced problems recently?
15:21:40 <Kevin_Kofler> SHOULD. Does it actually? That has been unclear so far.
15:21:49 <donniezazen_> rdieter: all the time.
15:22:04 <rdieter> donniezazen_: ok, I'm pretty sure we have more than one issue going on then
15:22:04 <Kevin_Kofler> The spinner animation was also blamed for the freezes, but I'm not sure there's sufficient evidence to prove that.
15:22:25 <rdieter> for *me*, I only ever experienced the spinner problem
15:22:40 <rdieter> donniezazen_: so you see freezes outside of anaconda?
15:22:45 <donniezazen_> I think the anaconda missing text and kde workspace freezing are different issues.
15:22:46 <donniezazen_> yes
15:22:53 <rdieter> if so, I think we need separate bugs
15:23:09 <rdieter> but meh, I'm ok keeping that one I gues
15:23:32 <donniezazen_> I can open another bug as I can reliably reproduce it.
15:23:39 <rdieter> we can just as easily reassign it to the appropriate place (ie, not oxygen-gtk3 anymore)
15:23:43 <Kevin_Kofler> The usual problem when there are several issues that are similar, but have completely different causes.
15:24:00 <Kevin_Kofler> People just throw it all together in one bug and there's no way to track what got fixed and what not.
15:24:34 <rdieter> donniezazen_: ok, please add followup comment to the bug to highlight your problems are beyond just gtk3 spinners
15:25:03 <rdieter> donniezazen_: intel video? (other?)
15:25:32 <donniezazen_> Intel 3000 HD and Nvidia NVS 4200M dual graphics.
15:27:19 <rdieter> fun, which one is used though?
15:27:23 <rdieter> by default?
15:27:30 <donniezazen_> Intel 3000HD
15:27:33 <rdieter> ok
15:28:09 <rdieter> I've also heard grumblings about intel driver issues with newish chipsets
15:28:41 <donniezazen_> I am using Thinkpad T420i which is an old system.
15:28:44 <rdieter> not sure which my latitude e6530 has (also dual graphics), but I don't experience problems
15:29:03 <donniezazen_> Same KDE version in F20 doesn't have this problem. It is unique to F21.
15:29:27 <Kevin_Kofler> That's a driver issue then.
15:31:39 <danofsatx-work> sorry I'm late - had an appointment with a CT scanner this morning. That iodine contrast stuff is weird......
15:31:55 <jreznik> ah, too late
15:32:12 <rdieter> #info jreznik danofsatx-work present
15:32:15 <rdieter> better late than never
15:32:41 <rdieter> either of you have any updates/news to add?
15:32:59 <rdieter> we didn't have much of an agenda today
15:33:25 <danofsatx-work> F21 fedup was broken Sunday, I haven't checked recently
15:34:14 <ltinkl> one thing from me, Fesco wants to discuss Fedora Plasma product tomorrow at their meeting (18:00 UTC)
15:35:41 <rdieter> ltinkl: do you know why?  I thought the board already effectively shot that down
15:36:03 <jwb> i think because tmraz just added the meeting keyword to most open tickets
15:36:06 <rdieter> (but my recollection is foggy)
15:36:13 <jwb> there's nothing really new to discuss
15:36:20 <rdieter> jwb: ok, thanks.
15:36:23 <jwb> i'll see if i can clarify in the ticket
15:36:24 <ltinkl> ah ok
15:36:54 <ltinkl> rdieter: any links to the respective board decision?
15:37:10 * rdieter goes hunting
15:37:56 <rdieter> boo, the old board ticket link doesn't work anymore, https://fedorahosted.org/board/ticket/177
15:39:15 <jwb> rdieter, it got split up
15:39:21 <jwb> 177 is in board-private
15:39:44 <rdieter> so not accessible :(
15:39:48 <jwb> https://fedorahosted.org/board/ticket/4 is the non-Plasma specific ticket
15:40:30 <rdieter> k, that works
15:40:41 <jwb> the private ticket is still open fwiw
15:41:20 <rdieter> I still don't like the criteria "Addresses a new, relevant, and broad usecase or userbase that Fedora is not currently serving"
15:41:50 <rdieter> which effectively shuts the door here
15:41:51 <Kevin_Kofler> Yeah, that's essentially the "rule of who was there first".
15:42:14 <ltinkl> "KDE userbase" is being served by Fedora Workstation?
15:42:23 <jreznik> rdieter: yep, it goes against all fedora pricipes but
15:42:42 <Kevin_Kofler> Imagine we'd find some new niche that everyone wants to target, we immediately rush out a KDE-based Product for that niche (maybe even a crappy one just to be first ;-) ), then what if GNOME also wants to target that niche (in Workstation or in a new Product)?
15:43:10 <Kevin_Kofler> Do you not think the GNOME developers would start an uprising?
15:43:10 <jreznik> but I'd still prefer having workstation as the best open/free software workstation thing, integrating both kde and gnome words and then having gnome and kde spins for purists
15:43:15 <ltinkl> board has lost all my credit with this decision, period
15:43:19 <rdieter> there's little point in debating/complaining here (in the meeting), we already likely disagree, so it'll be not much more than preaching to the choir
15:43:49 <jreznik> Kevin_Kofler: so let's start hacking on Plasma 5 Active :)))
15:44:45 <ltinkl> rdieter: given the product definition (...broad usecase or userbase...), how does Workstation serve the KDE userbase?
15:46:44 <rdieter> ltinkl: imo (of course), it doesn't, but the board still thinks there's an unacceptable level of overlap apparently
15:47:09 <jwb> out of the box, it doesn't serve the KDE userbase
15:47:13 <Kevin_Kofler_> jreznik: That (the grand unified Product) is just not realistic.
15:47:15 <Kevin_Kofler_> There are both technical issues with a live image combining multiple desktop environments (conflicting menu entries – at most we could have a multiboot set up like that MultiDVD) and political issues (GNOME developers don't want to ship KDE and we don't want to ship GNOME).
15:48:55 <ltinkl> jwb: isn't is Fedora (Board)'s interest to broaden the impact and user base of Fedora as a whole? this decision goes against that goal
15:49:10 <Kevin_Kofler> I think the rule about strictly disjoint userbases really needs to go away. We cannot have full coverage with a disjoint covering, only with a general covering (with overlap).
15:49:17 * Kevin_Kofler hopes people understand his mathematicianese. ;-)
15:49:27 <ltinkl> Kevin_Kofler: fully agree, see ^^
15:49:41 <rdieter> there's obviously a hard choice to make between broadening the base vs overlap
15:49:57 <jreznik> Kevin_Kofler: (GNOME developers don't want to ship KDE and we don't want to ship GNOME) is the issue - for purists, you can have desktop spefici lives but we should build our Workstation offering for users!
15:50:13 <jwb> ltinkl, you and i are going to disagree on this.  particularly when the goal for Workstation was to include KDE.
15:50:18 <ltinkl> no, the one of the primary goals of fedora.next was to attract more people, wasn't it?
15:50:35 <rdieter> ie "Addresses a new, relevant, and broad usecase or userbase..." vs "... that a Fedora Product is not currently serving"
15:50:54 <Kevin_Kofler> jwb: But it does NOT, in fact, include "KDE" (which is not how it should be called nowadays, but whatever).
15:51:04 <jreznik> jwb: and unfortunately it never happened and we should reconsider it and try it again, I really want best Workstation, not Gnomestation or Plasmastation
15:51:26 <jwb> Kevin_Kofler, agreed.  i cannot help the fact that the people in the Workstation WG that i thought would be actively working on that didn't do anything about it and instead went and did something else.
15:51:32 <Kevin_Kofler> There was a plan to include some runtime libraries, not sure whether they did or not, but that brings absolutely NOTHING to users.
15:51:33 <jwb> jreznik, yes.
15:51:38 <ltinkl> jwb: ok, put it another way, would a KDE user want to install Gnome as part of Plasma Product? the answer is obvious
15:51:53 <Kevin_Kofler> And the "solution" to install KDE through gnome-software is just silly.
15:52:07 <jwb> ltinkl, agreed.  that doesn't mean a solution for a KDE (Plasma?) Workstation couldn't be worked out.
15:52:07 <jreznik> ltinkl: we still can have pure gnome/kde lives
15:52:30 <ltinkl> jreznik: hmm, that's what I call overlap
15:52:54 <Kevin_Kofler> I think the Board should stop dreaming of the unified Product that will never happen and accept that separate GNOME and KDE Products are what the people doing the work actually want (i.e. meritocracy).
15:53:03 <jwb> anyway, i did not mean to derail your meeting.  i was just providing information on the FESCo thing
15:53:05 <ltinkl> jreznik: having spins beside Workstation/Plasma is nonsense
15:53:05 <donniezazen_> product or no product. I would want a pure KDE image to install KDE.
15:53:09 <Kevin_Kofler> There will never be one Workstation Product for everyone.
15:53:50 <rdieter> jwb: you didn't derail, I think the discussion train already left the station (thanks for the input)
15:54:07 <ltinkl> jreznik: it's either one or the other, nobody has time or resource to keep 4 different things
15:55:03 <rdieter> so, any concrete constructive ideas/proposals on what to about all this?
15:55:04 <jreznik> ltinkl: well, with the same logic you can say the same about that two desktop products :)
15:55:21 <Kevin_Kofler> I think the Board can only do one of 2 things:
15:55:21 <jreznik> kubuntu way? :)
15:55:22 <ltinkl> jwb: thanks for your input definitely; what I'd like to see is one Workstation product with equal opportunities for Gnome and KDE
15:55:53 <Kevin_Kofler> 1. accept that there are separate communities working on separate desktops, kill Workstation and introduce a GNOME Workstation Product and a Plasma Workstation Product or
15:56:21 <Kevin_Kofler> 2. destitute the current Workstation WG, form a new one that implements their dream of a unified Product (IMHO a bad idea, but it'd be consistent with their wishes).
15:56:21 <rdieter> jreznik: theh "kubuntu way" has been suggested , mostly by outsiders, but I think we (kde-sig) have largely rejected that idea (right?)
15:56:33 <Kevin_Kofler> The current "solution" just does not work.
15:56:44 <Kevin_Kofler> Workstation is just a rebranded old GNOME spin.
15:56:49 <ltinkl> I think only time will tell, in other words, when more people download the KDE spin than the glorified Workstation Product ;)
15:57:18 <Kevin_Kofler> ltinkl: Websites is doing all they can to not make that happen though, by hiding our spin even deeper in the drawer than before. :-(
15:57:20 <jreznik> ltinkl: and no way how to count it :)
15:57:24 * rdieter is still committed to working with workstation WG to make things better
15:57:29 <jreznik> rdieter: +1
15:57:38 * rdieter needs to spend more time on that too
15:57:50 * Kevin_Kofler does not believe in a unified Product at all.
15:57:52 <Kevin_Kofler> It just doesn't work.
15:58:08 <jreznik> Kevin_Kofler: why not?
15:58:10 <rdieter> Kevin_Kofler: obviously, we'll never make everyone happy
15:58:14 <Kevin_Kofler> It's not compatible with how we set up our live images (unless you do a multiboot image, but I think the Workstation WG will never accept that).
15:58:16 <ltinkl> Kevin_Kofler: it could work, but the will is just not there
15:58:30 <rdieter> any single deliverable will have to come with compromises
15:58:35 <Kevin_Kofler> If you have 2 DEs and their apps installed, you'll get both apps in both DE's menus.
15:59:04 <Kevin_Kofler> (unless you propose abusing OnlyShowIn/NotShowIn and I strongly oppose that – users who want to use e.g. Konversation under GNOME should be able to!)
15:59:08 * rdieter saw a good quote the other day:  a good goal is to keep people 80% happy, and 20% unhappy
15:59:29 <rdieter> if under 20%, it means you're not engaging outsiders enough
15:59:52 <jreznik> Kevin_Kofler: but the idea is to have one best app from both worlds and make sure it integrates and works together (I know for shell vs plasma, there would have to be exception)
15:59:59 <rdieter> ie, not enough outreach
15:59:59 <Kevin_Kofler> <jreznik> kubuntu way? :)
16:00:01 <Kevin_Kofler> http://svn.calcforge.org/viewvc/kannolo/trunk/kickstart/ :-)
16:00:03 <ltinkl> rdieter: I don't see that happening unless KDE falls under those 20%
16:00:14 <donniezazen_> I think it is wrong point of view to think that two products would confuse developers(target audience). Any one who comes to Fedora Project would be aware enough to deal with it.
16:00:27 <Kevin_Kofler> jreznik: Ewww, no thanks!
16:00:32 <rdieter> ltinkl: my only point was that we'll *never* be 100% happy
16:00:37 <ltinkl> rdieter: ie. quite utopic given how KDE's popularity
16:00:38 <Kevin_Kofler> I don't want a "KDE" image full of GNOME apps.
16:00:43 <ltinkl> rdieter: sure, I got that :)
16:00:49 <danofsatx-work> if we're 100% happy, we're doing something wrong.
16:00:50 <Kevin_Kofler> That's the old "best of breed" idea from the Bluecurve era.
16:00:54 <Kevin_Kofler> It horribly failed.
16:01:14 <Kevin_Kofler> Also because the "best of breed" decision was heavily biased towards GNOME apps (which would definitely also be the case with the current Workstation WG).
16:01:27 <Kevin_Kofler> I think K3b was the only KDE app they really accepted as "best of breed".
16:01:50 <Kevin_Kofler> And then if I want to use KDE apps as the default, I have to spend time reconfiguring KDE to actually work the way upstream intended.
16:01:59 <Kevin_Kofler> Been there, done that, do not want!
16:02:04 <rdieter> So, I guess we're still stuck on a 2 prong approach:  team 1: continue collaborating with workstation WG , team 2: continue working on pure kde solution (whether than be a spin or product or whatever)
16:03:00 <ltinkl> rdieter: goal 2 is basically the current KDE spin with stricter/written rules and well defined behavior/basic apps
16:03:01 <Kevin_Kofler> IMHO, there are only 2 solutions: 2 deliverables, or a multiboot deliverable (use the tech that was used for the Ambassadors' Multi-Desktop DVD).
16:03:11 <rdieter> ltinkl: yes
16:03:27 <Kevin_Kofler> (or 3 deliverables, where #3 would just be #1 and #2 scripted into a multiboot)
16:03:35 <rdieter> Kevin_Kofler: I consider that an offshoot of 2
16:03:39 <jwb> can i ask a couple of stupid questions?
16:03:49 <rdieter> jwb: please do
16:03:55 <jwb> Plasma is equivalent to KDE5, right?
16:04:00 <ltinkl> jwb: no
16:04:05 <rdieter> close
16:04:23 <Kevin_Kofler> "KDE5" does not exist. :-)
16:04:24 <ltinkl> jwb: Plasma is the general name for the KDE Desktop
16:04:40 <ltinkl> jwb: be it Plasma 4 or 5
16:04:45 <jwb> ok... but a Plasma product would be focusing on the newer version?
16:04:55 <jreznik> jwb: yes
16:04:56 <danofsatx-work> KDE is the people who make the Plasma workspace. Or so says kde.org
16:04:59 <Kevin_Kofler> What people think of when they say "KDE5" is either Plasma 5, or the combination of Plasma 5 and KDE Applications using KDE Frameworks 5.
16:05:00 <ltinkl> jwb: yes, that's our goal
16:05:09 <Kevin_Kofler> KDE Frameworks 5 is the successor to kdelibs 4.
16:05:12 <jwb> and that's for the f22 timeframe?
16:05:16 <rdieter> jwb: yes
16:05:17 <ltinkl> jwb: yes
16:05:20 <jwb> so it's all in rawhide right now?
16:05:25 <jreznik> jwb: copr
16:05:28 <Kevin_Kofler> Plasma 5 is the successor to Plasma 4, the workspace of "KDE 4" (a term that's also deprecated).
16:05:32 <jreznik> it's not co-installable with plasma 4
16:05:43 <rdieter> jwb: not yet, reviews are underway (and available in a copr as mentioned)
16:05:45 <Kevin_Kofler> We're working on getting Plasma 5 into Rawhide.
16:05:47 <ltinkl> jwb: partly in rawhide, partly in copr
16:06:00 <Kevin_Kofler> The Frameworks (libraries) are already in there.
16:06:13 <jwb> ok.  so once it's all in rawhide, the nightly livecd spins should be equivalent to the Plasma (5) Prodcut?
16:06:18 <jwb> er, Product
16:06:21 <danofsatx-work> regarding plasma....could it be configured in such a way to be considered a "low resource" desktop?
16:06:24 <Kevin_Kofler> (The Frameworks are also available in F20 updates and F21. The Plasma workspace will be F22+ only.)
16:06:34 <danofsatx-work> we're in search of a DE solution for the server product
16:06:36 <rdieter> jwb: (essentially) yes
16:06:47 <jreznik> danofsatx-work: it's definitely not low resource desktop :)
16:06:58 <jwb> ok, thanks for suffering my questions!
16:07:12 <danofsatx-work> I know, that's why I told them Plasma wasn't a good choice - I just wanted to confirm ;)
16:07:40 <ltinkl> jwb: http://www.dvratil.cz/2014/10/kde-frameworks-53-and-kde-plasma-51-for-fedora-are-ready/
16:07:58 <rdieter> jreznik: I think it's possible, minus baloo-file and using akonadi sqlite
16:08:24 <jwb> ltinkl, ah! so a live iso is already available.  great
16:09:20 <ltinkl> jwb: yup, as a preview
16:09:21 <donniezazen_> jwb: or you can just install plasma 5 on your current system.
16:10:30 <Kevin_Kofler> But Plasma 4 vs. 5 shouldn't really impact the decision on whether we are Product-worthy, it's not that different.
16:11:19 <rdieter> <nod> , our deliverable with be a live image with the latest stable/usable Plasma release
16:13:01 <Kevin_Kofler> As the packager of Calamares, I have to ask: Would using a different installer increase or decrease the chances of the Product being accepted? :-)
16:13:04 <rdieter> anyway, we're out of time think, any final comments/thoughts before we close the meeting?
16:14:01 <jwb> Kevin_Kofler, that isnt' why i was asking
16:14:04 <rdieter> Kevin_Kofler: imo, either won't matter, or may end up decreasing (I can envision some objection to not using anaconda)
16:14:43 <danofsatx-work> rdieter: you think a low resource version is possible for server, or no?
16:14:57 * danofsatx-work misread
16:15:18 <Southern_Gentlem> danofsatx-work,  why does a server need a DE
16:15:37 <jwb> one last question.  does Plasma/KDE work with Wayland?
16:15:46 <jwb> (as much as Wayland works in general)
16:15:52 <rdieter> danofsatx-work: we can continue in #fedora-kde after meeting.  defining "low resource" is important, it means different things to different people
16:15:58 <danofsatx-work> we have specific use cases - for example, Oracle installations require a GUI and do not port X over SSH very well.
16:16:05 <Kevin_Kofler> jwb: It's work in progress.
16:16:08 <jwb> ok thanks
16:16:26 <Kevin_Kofler> KWin supports Wayland now, there's some work on getting other stuff fixed to fully work under Wayland.
16:17:15 <Kevin_Kofler> (There's X11-specific code in some places, where different code is needed for Wayland integration.)
16:18:27 <Kevin_Kofler> dvratil enabled kwin_wayland in the latest builds, but we aren't ready yet to support it as the default.
16:18:46 <dvratil> it's not enabled in the spec file
16:18:54 <Kevin_Kofler> OK
16:19:07 <dvratil> but it's there as I've been playing with it a little :)
16:19:17 <jreznik> as I understand it, it's the plan for the next year to get wayland support in shape
16:19:39 <Kevin_Kofler> (And to be clear, this is all about Plasma 5, in Plasma 4, Wayland support was never finished, because Plasma 5 was started before, and because Qt 4 does not do runtime-switching of backends which makes it a PITA to switch to Wayland (have to recompile Qt first, then everything using Qt).)
16:20:06 <jreznik> plasma 5, kf5 ports and other work is pre-req for wayland support, so this is first step
16:20:57 <Kevin_Kofler> About the Fedora Server discussion, one thing to keep in mind is that it's not a replacement for a proper KDE Product; I can't see myself installing Fedora Server just to get KDE Plasma. ;-)
16:22:17 <danofsatx-work> no, it's not.
16:22:47 <danofsatx-work> this is a totally different target audience, if it gets targeted at all.
16:24:07 <rdieter> ok, we're *way* over time now, I'm calling it
16:24:10 <rdieter> #endmeeting