16:00:40 <stickster> #startmeeting
16:00:40 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Nov 19 16:00:40 2014 UTC.  The chair is stickster. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:00:40 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:00:46 <stickster> #meetingname workstation
16:00:46 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation'
16:00:56 <stickster> #meetingtopic Workstation WG
16:00:59 <stickster> #topic Roll call!
16:01:10 <stickster> .hellomynameis pfrields
16:01:11 <zodbot> stickster: pfrields 'Paul W. Frields' <stickster@gmail.com>
16:02:26 <kalev> .hellomynameis kalev
16:02:28 <zodbot> kalev: kalev 'Kalev Lember' <kalevlember@gmail.com>
16:02:44 <jwb> hi
16:02:56 * ryanlerch is here
16:02:56 * jsmith lurks
16:03:04 <sgallagh> /me lurks
16:03:04 * otaylor is here
16:03:26 <stickster> #chair kalev jwb ryanlerch otaylor
16:03:26 <zodbot> Current chairs: jwb kalev otaylor ryanlerch stickster
16:04:26 <stickster> Is that it? Anyone seen Christian, Matthias?
16:05:14 <otaylor> stickster: Matthias said he would be on a plane today
16:05:20 <stickster> Ah, thanks otaylor.
16:05:24 <stickster> Well, let's proceed.
16:05:34 <stickster> #topic Branding status
16:05:56 <stickster> ryanlerch: Did you want to give a summary? I saw you had some recent info on the list too.
16:07:27 * langdon lurks
16:07:28 <cschalle_> hi sorry for late arrival
16:07:42 <stickster> #chair cschalle_ langdon sgallagh
16:07:42 <zodbot> Current chairs: cschalle_ jwb kalev langdon otaylor ryanlerch sgallagh stickster
16:07:44 <stickster> (for good measure)
16:08:07 <zeenix> cschalle_: hi, glad you survived the toddler jumping on your belly :)
16:08:37 <cschalle_> :)
16:09:22 <stickster> ryanlerch: The way I understand things now is that we are going with logo extension for wallpaper for F21, will plan specific user testing post-GA for other branding changes
16:09:42 <ryanlerch> stickster, yeah, that is about where we are at still
16:09:44 * stickster hopes he's not stealing thunder, just wants to keep things moving :-)
16:10:23 <stickster> And I think we've properly requested exceptions for remaining bits, and waiting on a new fedora-logos package from spot. I talked to spot briefly this morning and he said he'd try to produce that package tonight.
16:10:24 <cschalle_> I vote +1 on that. (to keep thing moving :)
16:10:36 <cschalle_> things even
16:10:41 <kalev> cool
16:10:49 <kalev> I think we need a new fedora-logos for anaconda branding as well
16:11:05 <stickster> kalev: Right, I mentioned to spot that both mizmo and ryanlerch had graphics that needed to be added
16:12:13 <stickster> Anything else we need to cover here?  Anything else someone is waiting/blocked on for branding?
16:12:44 <stickster> OK, sounds like not.
16:13:14 <stickster> #info Logo extension and Anaconda branding work still underway, via exception process. Waiting on new fedora-logos package. Still think we can get this done.
16:13:24 <stickster> #topic XDG base dir proposal
16:14:19 <stickster> OK, this is the XDG basedir spec proposal that Rahul asked us to vote on. It wasn't resolved on the list.
16:14:44 <stickster> Proposal: Shall we require that default apps in Workstation use XDG basedir as shown in the freedesktop spec?
16:14:54 <kalev> I think it makes sense to require things that we can actually get done
16:14:55 <stickster> There was already -1 from at least otaylor stickster mclasen
16:14:57 <kalev> the XDG dir proposal would probably not get fully done for years
16:15:00 <cschalle_> -1
16:15:12 <kalev> unless we put significant development resources in it, which I don't think anyone wants to do
16:15:16 <kalev> -1
16:15:26 <ryanlerch> -1 for a hard requirement
16:15:33 <stickster> kalev: I agree -- I think it does make sense to collaborate with upstream to help move it forward, but not to sit downstream and block things on that basis
16:16:13 <sgallagh> Perhaps put together a "Best Practices" document that recommends this, but not block on it?
16:16:32 <jwb> i think someone with sufficient interest could do that
16:16:39 <jwb> i think the WG has bigger fish to fry
16:16:45 <stickster> So that brings us to -6
16:17:06 <stickster> #rejected The WG will not require XDG basedir
16:17:30 <ryanlerch> for me, the amount of pain required to implement this doenst balance the payoff to the end user...
16:17:38 <stickster> The other proposal was: Shall we recommend default apps in Workstation use XDG basedirs as shown in the freedesktop spec?
16:17:55 <stickster> I think this is where the "best practices" thing comes in
16:17:59 <cschalle_> yeah, I agree it is a good practice, I 'hardcode' the XDG dirs in Transmageddon for that reason, but I don't want to make it a hard requirement
16:18:19 <cschalle_> +1 to recommending it
16:18:22 <kalev> I'd draw a line on old / new apps -- new apps that get written for Workstation should use XDG base dir specifications
16:18:37 <stickster> kalev: "should" meaning recommended?
16:18:41 <jwb> how many apps are getting written for workstation?
16:18:44 <jwb> very very few
16:18:52 <jwb> we take whatever defaults the upstream apps have
16:19:07 <jwb> so a "recommends" in fedora seems like it's going to reach an extremely small audience
16:19:13 <kalev> quite a few, recently -- Software and Logs were specifically written for Fedora WOrkstation
16:20:10 <jwb> i was under the impression that they were written upstream
16:20:18 <jwb> for general usage
16:20:40 <stickster> That's what I thought as well, although I imagine the use case may have come from WS
16:21:14 <stickster> I guess the question begged above is, *where* would we make such recommendations, and who's going to seek/see them?
16:21:21 <jwb> right
16:21:22 <cschalle_> yeah, we don't write apps with the intent of making them no generally usable, but the WS to provide the motivation for putting people on those projects
16:21:49 * stickster not looking to establish a bunch more busywork here.
16:23:24 <stickster> It might be enough for us to just point out on the WS page that we "generally recommend new projects follow specifications such as:" and then list them, non-exhaustively
16:23:34 <cschalle_> so I am fine with the recommendation and I do think its best practice, but I don't want spend time on running after a project that for some reason doesn't want to do it waiving patches and tears at them
16:24:18 <jwb> stickster, i like your suggestion
16:24:42 <stickster> jwb: I made that proposal to see what people felt about recommendations, so I can withdraw it and instead just do some wiki editing
16:24:55 <stickster> #info stickster withdraws the recommendation proposal
16:25:17 <stickster> #action stickster will work on some extra text in the wiki where we can make recommendations on specs for new apps
16:26:06 <stickster> Shall we move on?
16:26:10 <cschalle_> yes
16:26:16 <stickster> #topic Open seat
16:26:45 <stickster> We have an open seat still to fill -- Josh, whose seat was this in the original lineup?'
16:27:00 <jwb> lukas tinkls
16:27:05 <stickster> OK, that's what I thought.
16:27:25 <stickster> The candidates are aday_ and rdieter
16:28:13 <kalev> I think they are both strong candidates
16:28:27 <cschalle_> me too
16:29:41 <stickster> Agreed, at this point IMHO it comes down to who can bring the most useful contribution toward a successful Workstation
16:29:51 <aday_> i'm interested, but would like to know a little more about what the role involves
16:30:36 <jwb> stickster, that's not easy to decided.  i think they'd both bring completely different kinds of contributions toward different Workstation goals :)
16:30:36 <aday_> stickster: makes sense
16:31:26 <stickster> jwb: Agreed. In my mind, this role is less directing code or design, but more high-level perspective
16:31:54 <aday_> but it does depend on how much time and energy we're prepared to invest
16:31:55 <stickster> At the same time, the WG members have to have a pretty good knowledge of what we're currently shipping
16:32:04 <kalev> when I put up aday's candidacy, my thought was that since he's leading much of upstream GNOME design, it would be good to have him on board here to make sure Fedora's and GNOME's goals are aligned
16:32:49 <stickster> kalev: That's a fair point.
16:33:35 <sgallagh> At the same time, I have some slight concerns that this will lead too much towards aday's influence pushing onto Fedora and overshadowing other voices.
16:33:45 <mcatanzaro> aday_: My impression: it's a responsibility to attend the weekly one-hour meetings, vote on the issues, read the Fedora desktop mailing list....
16:33:46 <stickster> kalev: At the same time, it feels to me like the WG clearly has a lot of GNOME involved folks. One of the things that I also think we want is to have a cross-desktop voice as well
16:33:52 <sgallagh> /me realizes he isn't a WG member and cannot vote on this.
16:34:45 <stickster> mcatanzaro: That's pretty fair (although biweekly). I think it's probably something on the order of a couple (or few) hours a week -- but there's quite a bit of overlap with what people may already be doing in Fedora Workstation
16:34:49 <sgallagh> But I think rdieter is good at both having a dissenting opinion and encouraging compromise.
16:35:39 <stickster> sgallagh: If it wasn't both, no one would call him a good candidate. ;-)
16:36:06 <otaylor> as a general comment - the only *exclusive* role of a WG member is voting - coming to meetings, contributing in meetings and the list, volunteering to do stuff, etc, is all open to anyone. That being said, the WG members will often be the first line of volunteers so it make some sense to have people on the WG that have  knowledge and activity appropriate to doing things that need to happen for a successful workstation
16:36:06 <otaylor> product
16:36:32 <stickster> otaylor: "flavor" :-)
16:36:35 <stickster> heh
16:37:13 * stickster takes the slow discussion as a sign people are really thinking hard about this
16:37:40 <mcatanzaro> sgallagh: Both rdieter and aday are good at encouraging compromise.
16:37:40 <aday_> mcatanzaro: thanks for the information
16:39:22 <stickster> I feel like we haven't seen cwickert around much in the WG, but that he is also a good voice of dissent who tries to find compromoise.
16:39:23 <otaylor> I don't have a strong opinion here - I think both are strong candidates - I really want to have aday involved in the workstation, but that doesn't strictly require him to have a WG seat. rdieter has the advantage of not being a Red Hat employee - which I think it important
16:39:25 <stickster> *compromise.
16:39:44 <sgallagh> Sorry if that sounded like I dislike aday_. I'm more concerned about not having a mostly homogenous makeup of the Workstation WG.
16:39:50 <cschalle_> I am in the same boat as otaylor
16:39:58 <stickster> sgallagh: I think we're all adults, and no one should be insulted :-)
16:40:12 <stickster> sgallagh: I think that's the point I'm getting at
16:40:18 <kalev> I'm in the same boat as otaylor too -- he's always good at voicing my thoughts in a proper manner :)
16:40:20 <sgallagh> stickster: Yeah, but IRC is a really terrible medium for communicating subtlety
16:40:24 <stickster> sure
16:40:45 <ryanlerch> so is this decided with a vote?
16:41:28 <kalev> if it comes to voting, I am +1 aday, +0 rdieter
16:41:35 <stickster> What I'm getting at is that if cwickert can't really give cycles to Workstation, perhaps I should talk to him about having rdieter step in, if rdieter is interested in the seat
16:41:49 <kalev> but before that, I am not sure aday_ has agreed to actually being on the WG
16:42:23 <stickster> kalev: you're right. aday_ , is this something you want to do, given discussion above about what the members are responsible for?
16:42:40 <cschalle_> stickster, I like your idea
16:42:52 <aday_> i can certainly do the meetings and voting. i'm a bit hesitant about taking on the role without being more involved in the workstation more generally - which is something i'd like to do, but is dependent on me finding the time
16:43:29 <aday_> i'm sure i can help to coordinate between gnome and fedora though
16:43:54 <aday_> and i'm enthusiastic about having a design voice in the WG
16:44:41 * stickster feels like it would be strong to have not just one but two designers involved, with both ryanlerch and aday_
16:44:52 <stickster> But I also feel strongly about not having a monoculture in the WG
16:47:07 <stickster> OK, I feel like there's not a lot more discussion to be had about this seat, but we have a discussion ahead about how to balance other seats.
16:47:10 <stickster> Should we vote?
16:47:18 <cschalle_> ok, so my suggestion would be that we give rdieter the current open space, and at the same time we look into if another spot would be available for aday
16:47:21 <mcatanzaro> stickster: With aday on the WG, it would be 50% upstream GNOME contributors (I'm counting mclasen, kalev, otaylor, cschalle, aday).
16:48:36 <jwb> mcatanzaro, there's only 9 members
16:48:49 * stickster was hoping to have rdieter here but he apparently couldn't break free.
16:48:52 <jwb> so if 5 of them are GNOME contributors, that's >50%
16:48:55 <mcatanzaro> jwb: Oops :)
16:49:10 <mcatanzaro> Counting: not my strongest skill.
16:49:11 <jwb> i'm simply commenting on the math, nothing else :)
16:49:54 <stickster> I'm +1 rdieter, +0 aday -- and I'll commit to seeing if we can re-energize an additional seat
16:50:08 <kalev> one thing I'd like to keep is to make sure the WG is a doers group
16:50:14 <rdieter> stickster: I just got back to my laptop, hi
16:50:22 <jwb> stickster, need more dilithium crystals
16:50:25 <kalev> if we have one seat that doesn't show up on the meetings, it might be best to try to find someone more active
16:50:40 <rdieter> so here, in case I'm needed for ... whatever
16:51:06 <jwb> rdieter, we need you to fix all the problems.
16:51:09 <jwb> get on it.
16:51:15 <stickster> That's being a doer!
16:51:16 * rdieter goes to get on it
16:51:34 <kalev> awesome :)
16:51:44 <cschalle_> so same vote as stickster from me then
16:51:45 <stickster> aday_: Would you continue to be interested in a seat if it turns out we free another one?
16:51:56 <aday_> stickster: sure
16:52:28 <stickster> vote's not over though. So cschalle_ and I may end up being the first against the wall when the revolution comes...
16:52:34 <stickster> ;-)
16:53:15 <stickster> ryanlerch: kalev: otaylor: need your votes
16:53:16 <otaylor> I'll join with stickster and cschalle on this one
16:53:28 <stickster> kalev: Sorry, I missed yours above
16:53:52 <stickster> +3 rdieter, +1 aday total so far
16:53:57 <ryanlerch> +1 rdieter
16:55:11 <stickster> Technically, that means 1/2 of voting members are for rdieter, so it would be possible to tie. But if our 5 folks here are a quorum, I think it's clear rdieter should fill the seat. Any opposed?
16:55:35 <stickster> sorry to be a noodge, just being transparent
16:55:47 <cschalle_> not opposed
16:55:53 <cschalle_> (I have to run, got another meeting)
16:55:59 <stickster> cschalle_: OK, me too
16:56:11 <stickster> OK, I hear no other opposition
16:56:24 <stickster> #agreed rdieter will fill ltinkl seat on Workstation WG, effective immediately
16:56:38 <kalev> rdieter: welcome!
16:56:49 <stickster> #action stickster will follow up on possible add'l seat availability
16:56:58 <stickster> #topic Final release collateral
16:57:28 <stickster> OK, just a couple minutes here before we break -- We have a larger release announcement from about 1.5 months back, which needs to be revived for the Final release
16:57:57 <stickster> We'll need WG members and other contributors to help go through that for accuracy and also to make sure we're talking about all the cool stuff in/about Workstation
16:58:20 <stickster> #info Need WG members and contributors to help review Final release announcement for F21
16:58:32 <stickster> #info Also, screenshots welcome at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F21_screenshots_library
16:58:55 <stickster> kalev: I think a bunch of us are running away to another meeting, can we table geo-location for the list?
16:59:04 <Southern_Gentlem> stickster, i am sure the docs folks would like help as well
16:59:16 <kalev> stickster: I guess so
16:59:19 <stickster> Southern_Gentlem: Great point, I will get our initial stuff on the wiki and contact them
16:59:41 <stickster> #action stickster Put latest Final release announcement WS stuff on wiki
16:59:48 <stickster> #action stickster Invite Docs help with WS rel-ann
17:00:03 <stickster> I appear to have picked up all the action items, that's what I call a successful meeting for everyone else ;-D
17:00:14 <stickster> kalev: Thanks, and sorry for running out of tiem
17:00:17 <stickster> *time
17:00:35 <stickster> All right, thanks for your time everyone! Happy hacking!
17:00:36 <kalev> the upstream discussion is still ongoing as well
17:00:52 <stickster> kalev: Right, I think we probably need a bit more hashing out to determine what we can/should do
17:00:58 <stickster> #endmeeting