17:00:06 <mattdm> #startmeeting Council (2015-06-01)
17:00:06 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Jun  1 17:00:06 2015 UTC.  The chair is mattdm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:00:06 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:00:08 <mattdm> #meetingname council
17:00:08 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council'
17:00:11 <mattdm> #chair mattdm jreznik jwb cwickert rdieter langdon sgallagh decause
17:00:11 <zodbot> Current chairs: cwickert decause jreznik jwb langdon mattdm rdieter sgallagh
17:00:13 <mattdm> #topic Roll call!
17:00:13 <decause> .hello decause
17:00:15 <zodbot> decause: decause 'None' <decause@redhat.com>
17:00:28 <langdon> .hello langdon
17:00:29 <zodbot> langdon: langdon 'Langdon White' <langdon@fishjump.com>
17:00:31 <mattdm> hello 'None' :)
17:00:36 <gholms> Heh
17:00:37 <jwb> hi
17:00:38 <langdon> we are doing any crazy videos today, right?
17:00:44 <jkurik> .hello jkurik
17:00:45 <zodbot> jkurik: jkurik 'None' <jkurik@redhat.com>
17:00:49 <mattdm> no crazy videos today
17:00:50 <decause> #action decause fix .hello creds
17:00:55 <decause> :P
17:00:59 <mattdm> whoo lots of people here :)
17:01:16 <decause> langdon: nope, good ole' fashioned IRC classic
17:01:35 * langdon thinks it is good no one can see him hating on kube right now
17:01:46 <jreznik> .hello jreznik
17:01:47 <zodbot> jreznik: jreznik 'Jaroslav Reznik' <jreznik@redhat.com>
17:01:53 <mattdm> waiting on cwickert rdieter sgallagh ....
17:02:20 <jreznik> jkurik: " jkurik 'None'" :)
17:02:31 <sgallagh> .hello sgallagh
17:02:32 * rdieter waves
17:02:32 <zodbot> sgallagh: sgallagh 'Stephen Gallagher' <sgallagh@redhat.com>
17:02:41 * langdon notes.. if they are anything like kube.. they will only be accessible if you are in the same room with them.. or you manually bring a phone to the wall of the room...
17:02:42 <rdieter> .hello rdieter
17:02:43 <zodbot> rdieter: rdieter 'Rex Dieter' <rdieter@math.unl.edu>
17:03:08 <jkurik> jreznik: I need to fix it :)
17:03:12 <mattdm> okay I see christoph isn't online right now
17:03:24 <mattdm> gonna go ahead with agenda and hopefully he'll drop in...
17:03:31 <mattdm> #topic Today's Agenda
17:03:33 <mattdm> #info 1. Auxiliary seat change - approve Jan Kurik as a new Council member
17:03:35 <mattdm> #info 2. Trademark approval for Fedora Cinnamon Spin
17:03:37 <mattdm> #info 3. Proposed Schedule for PRD Refresh
17:03:39 <mattdm> #info 4. Council Update at Flock
17:03:41 <mattdm> #info 5. Objective Proposal: Fedora Modularization (Requirements Phase)
17:03:53 <mattdm> hopefully that's not too fast for zodbot's meeting notes :)
17:04:01 <mattdm> anyone have anything to add?
17:04:07 <jwb> pretty sure at least the first two are already handled
17:04:38 <mattdm> I left #5 for last because I'm not sure it's quite ready
17:04:50 <mattdm> jwb: yeah I figured we'd just cross em off formally
17:04:57 <mattdm> and jkurik could formally say hi
17:05:04 <mattdm> #topic Auxiliary seat change - approve Jan Kurik as a new Council member
17:05:06 <mattdm> #link https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/30
17:05:22 <mattdm> this has a couple of +1s in the ticket
17:05:22 <jreznik> and I can say formally bye :)
17:05:25 <mattdm> any objections?
17:05:44 * jkurik is formally saying Hi
17:05:59 <mattdm> okay then :)
17:06:06 <mattdm> #chair jkurik
17:06:06 <zodbot> Current chairs: cwickert decause jkurik jreznik jwb langdon mattdm rdieter sgallagh
17:06:06 <jwb> jreznik, no, you can't.  sorry.
17:06:13 <decause> jwb++
17:06:13 <zodbot> decause: Karma for jwboyer changed to 6:  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
17:06:15 * mattdm does not unchair jreznik
17:06:27 <sgallagh> jreznik: Sorry to say, but you're serving a life sentence ;-)
17:06:39 <mattdm> okay moving on to make jwb happy :)
17:06:40 <mattdm> #topic Trademark approval for Fedora Cinnamon Spin
17:06:42 <mattdm> #link https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/29
17:06:54 <mattdm> this one has even more +1s in ticket
17:07:03 <jreznik> it's already on Phoronix :)
17:07:12 <mattdm> opened 13 days ago, no objections
17:07:25 <mattdm> if it's on phoronix it must be so
17:07:41 <jreznik> approved by Phoronix & Fedora Council
17:07:42 <mattdm> so I'm going to count this as approved by consensus as well
17:07:53 <mattdm> and next
17:07:56 <mattdm> #topic Proposed Schedule for PRD Refresh
17:08:01 <mattdm> #link https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/27
17:08:11 <mattdm> sgallagh, any comments?
17:08:35 <jwb> did Workstation ever agree to this?
17:08:55 <jwb> i might have missed the email where we actually sent a request to the WGs for feedback
17:09:19 <rdieter> it was discussed in the last workstation WG meeting, I don't recall the outcome though
17:09:49 <langdon> i know e&s is working on it..
17:10:14 <mattdm> so I guess the question at this point is: is 11 days sufficient notice?
17:10:25 <jwb> if the WGs are all already off and working on it, i'm fine with 11 days.  i'm concerned about Base though.
17:10:36 <jwb> afaik, their last meeting was basically a reboot meeting
17:11:08 <sgallagh> Sorry, stepped away momentarily
17:11:10 <mattdm> I think that even though there wasn't a formal mail, I've talked to people in all of cloud/server/workstation about it
17:11:32 <jwb> we should probably be better about formal requests
17:11:42 <jwb> in the future.  not trying to derail right now
17:12:26 <sgallagh> Mostly this is just an exercise in clarification and making sure our primary documents agree with our current direction
17:12:29 <mattdm> jwb agreed
17:12:49 <sgallagh> But yes, let's send a devel-announce email or something to make sure everyone knows the dates
17:12:56 <mattdm> sgallagh: can you send a message asking formally and with the date?
17:13:03 <mattdm> heh. yes that.
17:13:30 <sgallagh> #action sgallagh to send an email to devel-announce@lists.fp.o noting the dates for the PRD refresh
17:13:35 <jkurik> should not review of PRD be a regular task/milestone in schedule for each Fedora release ?
17:13:52 <mattdm> #info "the dates" in this case = June 12th
17:14:07 <mattdm> jkurik: that's a good idea
17:14:09 <decause> jkurik: that sounds reasonable to me
17:14:17 <langdon> jkurik, +1
17:14:22 <sgallagh> jkurik: +1
17:14:29 <mattdm> jkurik: do you want to find a place for it in the regular schedule SOP?
17:14:40 <sgallagh> Though if there's a lot of churn in it, they're probably not doing their job
17:14:55 <mattdm> possibly _annual_ review is sufficient?
17:14:57 <sgallagh> "If you change your strategy every six months, you don't have a strategy"
17:15:52 <sgallagh> I'd say annual makes more sense
17:15:58 <jkurik> sgallagh: it is not about changing strategy, it is a review to make sure we are fine with it for the upcomming release IMO
17:15:59 <sgallagh> It's a lot of busywork for every release
17:16:01 <mattdm> maybe tied to flock?
17:16:25 <sgallagh> jkurik: I disagree. The PRD is supposed to be the go-to document for deciding if a feature fits the strategy
17:16:26 <mattdm> rather than to release schedule
17:17:33 <jkurik> sgallagh: ok then
17:17:58 <mattdm> only problem with tying it to flock is that it's right in the alpha/beta period for the october release
17:18:12 <mattdm> but I guess it's not like our schedule really has _lulls_
17:18:22 <sgallagh> Well. tying it to Flock is okay if it's understood to be for Fedora N+1
17:18:52 <mattdm> sgallagh: right, and by implication N+2 as well
17:18:53 <sgallagh> By the time we're in Alpha/Beta phase, the design of the current release is pretty much set
17:18:55 <sgallagh> Yes
17:19:22 <jreznik> yep
17:19:23 <mattdm> So, if we want to do that, is it worth even asking for an update now
17:19:54 <mattdm> Or, update now, and then a reminder to make it a thing for flock 2016?
17:20:08 <mattdm> (say, one month after flock?)
17:20:22 <sgallagh> Well, the main reason we were doing it now is because we *know* there are inconsistencies in the current set
17:20:28 * langdon is gonna need an info for conclusion cause he aint so bright
17:20:29 <sgallagh> Which is to be expected, since it was our first try
17:21:06 <mattdm> proposal: request update now, as already proposed. Then, next update after Flock 2016 and thereafter annually
17:21:29 <sgallagh> mattdm: 2016 or 2015?
17:21:47 <sgallagh> As in "skip this summer"?
17:22:05 <mattdm> 2016. as in, this one will cover us for 2015
17:22:10 <sgallagh> Works for me
17:22:30 <mattdm> anyone think that's dumb?
17:22:51 <jkurik> I am +1
17:22:52 * decause thinks that sounds reasonable
17:22:57 <decause> +1
17:23:02 <mattdm> okay then :)
17:23:23 <mattdm> jkurik: can you put a note on some schedule somewhere so we don't forget this next year?
17:23:24 <langdon> summary?
17:23:29 <mattdm> and also on wiki
17:23:30 <langdon> mattdm, ^^
17:23:33 <sgallagh> I'll summarize
17:23:43 <decause> jkurik: fedocal perhaps?
17:23:48 <jkurik> mattdm: I am just thinking of it ... what is the right place
17:24:05 <jkurik> yes, Fedocal seems to be the right place
17:24:19 <mattdm> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora.next could probably stand to have a note too
17:24:36 <mattdm> and sgallagh can you include this in your mail?
17:24:41 <sgallagh> #info We will continue the PRD review currently scheduled for June 12th. Starting with Flock 2016, we will start the process at Flock each year and have it due one month after that.
17:24:54 <decause> sgallagh++
17:24:57 <sgallagh> langdon: ^^
17:25:01 <mattdm> #action jkurik will note PRD review schedule somewhere and remind us next year
17:25:10 <mattdm> sgallagh++
17:25:22 <jkurik> mattdm: will do
17:25:26 <langdon> should the info/note/etc have the "what should be done during the prd review"? or is that elsewhere?
17:25:59 <mattdm> sgallagh: I assume you're writing that in the message you're sending, yeah?
17:26:17 <sgallagh> Sure, you can assume anything you like ;-)
17:26:34 <sgallagh> (But yes, I'll try to clarify what an update entails)
17:26:59 * mattdm assumes unicorns are currently on their way with cartloads of sea-salt-and-caramel chocolate
17:27:08 <mattdm> thanks :)
17:27:39 <mattdm> maybe that could go in a wiki document somewhere too — PRD review SOP or something
17:27:44 <langdon> mattdm, can you send them here next?
17:27:57 <sgallagh> You can skip the unicorns.
17:28:05 <mattdm> langdon: as soon as they arrive
17:28:11 * langdon holds breath
17:28:38 <decause> council++
17:28:40 <mattdm> sgallagh: can you throw the clarification in a wiki page somewhere too please?
17:28:43 <jwb> mattdm, what is really happening is draft horses with cart loads of road salt and tar refuse from the boston snow mounds will show up
17:28:58 <mattdm> jwb: ewwwwwwww *sigh*
17:29:06 <mattdm> #topic Council Update at Flock
17:29:10 <mattdm> #link https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/25
17:29:13 <jwb> oh, right
17:29:16 <jwb> so i scheduled this
17:29:28 * decause will be there
17:29:31 <mattdm> the purpose of this agenda item is really to remind us that this ticket exists :)
17:29:36 <jwb> the intent is to talk about what we are doing are will be doing
17:29:42 <jwb> not talk about more governance
17:29:51 <jwb> er
17:29:59 <jwb> "what we are doing and what we will be doing"
17:30:04 <mattdm> jwb: +10000000000000
17:30:18 <sgallagh> "The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy."
17:30:32 <jwb> somewhat
17:30:34 <jwb> :)
17:30:36 <mattdm> jwb: Do you want to do this as a panel/round-table?
17:30:40 <jwb> yes
17:30:51 <sgallagh> /me wonders if it shouldn't be in "dunk-tank" format
17:31:02 <mattdm> cool. That has seemed to work really well in the past, and requires less prep
17:31:07 <jwb> yes
17:31:11 <jwb> sgallagh, also possible!
17:31:46 <mattdm> hmmm :)
17:31:58 * ErichEickmeyer thinks people might pay money to see mattdm in a dunk tank.
17:32:42 <mattdm> good thing Fedora doesn't do fundraising :)
17:32:49 <ErichEickmeyer> hehe
17:32:52 <sgallagh> mattdm: What about charging for engineering time?
17:32:56 <mattdm> is all of the council going to be there?
17:33:04 <jwb> that was the other reason for the ticket
17:33:19 <sgallagh> /me has a room booked
17:33:23 * rdieter hasn't made any concrete plans yet, definite maybe
17:33:25 <jwb> i've not heard from christoph
17:33:46 <mattdm> #action mattdm to ping christoph re flock attendance
17:35:09 * mattdm hopes rdieter can make it
17:35:15 <mattdm> anything else on this?
17:35:17 <langdon> jwb, are you collecting names on the ticket?
17:35:23 <jwb> sure!
17:35:33 <jwb> (not really, but it would be good to have people note their attendance)
17:35:52 <langdon> jwb, ACK will do
17:36:11 <mattdm> k... next thing!
17:36:15 <mattdm> #topic Objective Proposal: Fedora Modularization (Requirements Phase)
17:36:18 <mattdm> #link https://fedorahosted.org/council/ticket/26
17:36:57 <mattdm> langdon: any words here?
17:37:12 <langdon> there are a bunch there :)
17:37:17 <mattdm> heh. yeah
17:37:38 <mattdm> any comments from anyone other than me and langdon? :)
17:37:47 * langdon typing
17:38:23 <langdon> so.. I am struggling a bit for time.. but.. my blocker (a bit) has been ... is this ticket approved? is it approved contingent on doing another ticket/wiki page? something else? how are we communicating the need(s) to the WGs?
17:38:44 <jreznik> I brought it to Base WG meeting today / and Base WG attention
17:38:54 <langdon> jreznik, i saw ;)
17:39:00 <langdon> e&s has also discussed
17:39:08 <jreznik> :)))
17:39:19 <mattdm> there's no objections, but there's no +1s either
17:39:25 <jwb> workstation has kind of discussed similar ideas at least
17:39:40 <mattdm> since the Objectives are by definition a big deal, they need three clear +1s to pass
17:39:45 <jwb> or rather, what they'd like to provide on top of some lower base ring/layer/thing
17:40:35 <mattdm> I'm okay with +1ing this. 3 weeks ago, I asked if we wanted to wrap it into a bigger, longer term thing all written out...
17:40:51 <mattdm> but at this point, I'm kind of thinking let's go with the steps we've outlined rather than blocking for that
17:40:54 <langdon> mattdm, ack.. and i started working on that.. but ... time
17:41:37 <mattdm> So, let's start here... is anyone -1 to approving this proposal as it stands?
17:41:42 <langdon> i also have a bunch of prototype stuff starting to come out (on my blog).. but that is somewhat orthoganl
17:41:47 <langdon> *orthogonal
17:41:54 <mattdm> langdon: cool!
17:42:57 * mattdm assumes everyone is reading
17:43:03 * decause is reading, yes
17:43:12 * mattdm puts on music
17:43:29 <mattdm> ♫♫♪♪♫♫♪♪♫♫♫♪
17:43:40 * ErichEickmeyer hears the Jeopardy theme
17:43:42 <rdieter> +1
17:43:53 <jwb> i have no issues with this
17:43:59 <mattdm> +1
17:44:28 <mattdm> sgallagh?
17:44:53 <sgallagh> I don't technically have a vote on this matter
17:45:05 <mattdm> sgallagh: oh yeah :)
17:45:11 <mattdm> whooo fun with process
17:45:32 <jwb> sgallagh, given that it directly impacts your objective in some ways, what do you think anyway?
17:45:44 * mattdm was typing what jwb just wrote :)
17:46:01 <sgallagh> I'm processing. A moment.
17:47:00 <sgallagh> I'm broadly in favor.
17:47:16 <mattdm> cool
17:47:28 <mattdm> let's call this approved, then
17:47:35 <decause> +1 on requirements gathering. The approach seems reasonable.
17:47:45 <sgallagh> I wonder at the practical execution somewhat, but I agree that waiting on a perfect plan is useless
17:47:52 <mattdm> #agreed Objective Proposal: Fedora Modularization (Requirements Phase) approved by consensus
17:48:01 <langdon> just for propriety's sake... im +1 :)
17:48:05 <mattdm> langdon: :)
17:48:18 <mattdm> #topic Next week - QA
17:48:24 <mattdm> okay, so this is an action item for me
17:48:36 <mattdm> next week is scheduled to be a video meeting with a presentation from QA
17:48:48 <mattdm> adam w had initially agreed to do it, but is unavailable
17:49:14 <mattdm> and then kamil p stepped in and said "possibly"
17:49:17 <mattdm> so....
17:49:23 * langdon is dicey on being able to attend.. will be returning from personal travel and am not sure if i will have stable connection
17:49:24 <mattdm> #action mattdm to check in with QA team to make sure this is still on
17:49:55 <mattdm> #info and if not, will either find something else last minute, or we'll fall back to (non-video) open floor
17:49:56 * decause will be travelling back from Rel-Eng FAD
17:50:21 <mattdm> so maybe not the worst thing if we postpone
17:50:23 <tflink> it's still on AFAIK
17:50:36 <tflink> we're still planning on it, anyways
17:50:53 <tflink> will likely be roshi
17:50:53 <mattdm> tflink: ooh thanks :)
17:51:06 <mattdm> #info QA is on. will likely be roshi
17:51:11 <mattdm> well that was easy :)
17:51:26 <roshi> yup - see you there :)
17:51:33 <mattdm> #topic Open Floor
17:51:47 <langdon> mattdm, 80% i can be there.. didn't mean to imply something like 20%
17:52:27 <mattdm> oh wait I have a thing :)
17:52:42 <mattdm> #topic Objective Lead for Fedora Modularization (Requirements Phase)
17:53:04 <mattdm> I nominate langdon for this, unless langdon has someone else in mind
17:53:34 <langdon> mattdm, is there any conflict with my council role?
17:53:39 <jwb> no
17:53:54 <langdon> jwb, which was that answering?
17:53:56 <sgallagh> langdon: decause is leading up the University one, so there's precedent
17:54:07 <decause> sgallagh: trewth
17:54:14 <mattdm> also, langdon's elected seat is expiring presently
17:54:27 <jwb> langdon, no conflict
17:54:33 <langdon> jwb, phew :)
17:54:45 <mattdm> you don't get double votes, though :)
17:54:57 <jwb> he doesn't need double votes
17:55:08 <jwb> a single -1 halts things
17:55:12 * langdon <sad face>
17:55:32 <mattdm> jwb: but there is a "three +1" threshold
17:55:53 * mattdm notes that the charter is actually unclear on double votes
17:56:31 <mattdm> but hopes this is unlikely to be a real problem
17:56:44 <mattdm> in any case, +1 to langdon as objective lead
17:56:57 <rdieter> +1 too
17:56:59 <decause> +1 for Langdon for Objective Lead on Fedora Modularization, assuming he accepts his nomination
17:57:09 <langdon> accept.. and vote twice
17:57:18 <decause> :P
17:58:13 <mattdm> okay. three minutes til meeting close. I hope it's not rushing to say that there are no objectives?
17:58:16 <sgallagh> +1 vote that does not count
17:58:28 <langdon> sgallagh, thank you for your support..
17:58:32 <sgallagh> mattdm: Objectives?
17:58:36 * langdon raise victory sign..
17:58:38 <mattdm> lol objections
17:59:01 <mattdm> #agreed langdon is objective lead for just-approved objective
17:59:02 * ErichEickmeyer notes autocorrect fail... of the fingers.
17:59:07 <mattdm> ErichEickmeyer++
17:59:19 <mattdm> #topic back to open floor
17:59:24 <mattdm> anything else?
17:59:32 <mattdm> 30 seconds of meeting left :)
17:59:56 <mattdm> 3
17:59:58 <mattdm> 2
18:00:01 <mattdm> 1
18:00:03 <mattdm> #endmeeting