18:00:00 <mattdm> #startmeeting Council (2016-03-14) 18:00:00 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Mar 14 18:00:00 2016 UTC. The chair is mattdm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:00:00 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 18:00:00 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council_(2016-03-14)' 18:00:02 <mattdm> #meetingname council 18:00:02 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council' 18:00:04 <mattdm> #chair mattdm jkurik jwb cwickert langdon decause robyduck 18:00:04 <zodbot> Current chairs: cwickert decause jkurik jwb langdon mattdm robyduck 18:00:12 <jkurik> .hello jkurik 18:00:13 <zodbot> jkurik: jkurik 'Jan Kurik' <jkurik@redhat.com> 18:00:14 <mattdm> #meetingtopic Fedora Objective Review 18:00:26 <mattdm> #topic Welcomes and hellos 18:00:30 <mattdm> jkurik: you are too fast :) 18:00:35 <jkurik> sorry 18:00:38 <mattdm> :) 18:00:41 <mattdm> .hello mattdm 18:00:42 <zodbot> mattdm: mattdm 'Matthew Miller' <mattdm@mattdm.org> 18:00:43 <robyduck> .hello robyduck 18:00:44 <zodbot> robyduck: robyduck 'Robert Mayr' <robyduck@gmail.com> 18:00:58 <bconoboy> .hello blc 18:00:59 <zodbot> bconoboy: blc 'Brendan Conoboy' <blc@redhat.com> 18:01:19 <mattdm> hey robyduck! welcome bconoboy! 18:01:29 <robyduck> hi all 18:01:32 <mattdm> langdon said he might be a few minutes late 18:01:57 <mattdm> jwb isn't in channel... 18:02:03 <mattdm> nor cwickert 18:02:16 <mattdm> decause is around somewhere :) 18:02:52 <jwb> hi, apologies for being late 18:03:11 <mattdm> jwb cool welcome 18:03:43 <mattdm> okay, so 18:03:46 <mattdm> #topic Agenda 18:04:00 <mattdm> 0. Intros, welcomes, agenda (in progress!) 18:04:11 <mattdm> 1. Review Modularity refresh 18:04:15 <decause> .hello decause 18:04:16 <zodbot> decause: decause 'Remy DeCausemaker' <decause@redhat.com> 18:04:17 <mattdm> 2. Review University Involvement 18:04:20 <mattdm> hi decause! 18:04:24 <sgallagh> /me lurks 18:04:26 * decause waves 18:04:35 <mattdm> 3. Discuss proposals for other new objectives 18:04:47 <mattdm> and then 18:04:54 <mattdm> 4. open floor if any time is left 18:05:26 <mattdm> I didn't spell it out, but for anyone who didn't catch the email last week, this meeting is meant to be a review of our 12-18month objectives 18:05:35 <langdon> .hello langdon 18:05:36 <zodbot> langdon: langdon 'Langdon White' <langdon@fishjump.com> 18:05:56 <mattdm> I don't expect that we'll have final vote on all of this since it needs community input that I don't think we're really gotten yet 18:06:04 <mattdm> but it seemed good to start somewhere 18:06:12 <mattdm> and hopefully close not too long from now. 18:06:24 <mattdm> (pause for any comments) 18:06:32 <mattdm> (or corrections or additions) 18:06:34 <mattdm> (or applause) 18:06:35 <jwb> close? 18:06:49 <sgallagh> /me claps politely 18:06:51 * langdon claps uproariously 18:06:54 <mattdm> "close" I mean "stop talking, have approved a new slate of objectives" 18:06:56 * bconoboy claps 18:07:02 <jwb> ah 18:07:20 * cwickert is sorry for being late 18:07:28 <mattdm> welcome cwickert! 18:07:42 <mattdm> cwickert: do you need the scrollback? 18:08:01 <cwickert> mattdm: would be nice, but in private please 18:08:05 * linuxmodder hangs in back 18:08:20 <cwickert> thanks mattdm 18:09:14 <cwickert> mattdm: carry on pls, no need to let the others wait while I read 18:09:23 * mattdm pastes 18:09:25 <mattdm> #topic Fedora Modularity Objective 18:09:27 <mattdm> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives/Fedora_Modularization,_Requirements_Phase 18:09:29 <mattdm> #info that's the current/previous phase 18:09:50 <mattdm> and the proposed new phase is 18:09:53 <mattdm> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives/Fedora_Modularization,_Prototype_Phase 18:09:56 <mattdm> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives/Fedora_Modularization,_Prototype_Phase 18:10:17 <mattdm> langdon, this is your circus -- you want the floor? 18:10:20 * mattdm rests fingers 18:10:29 <langdon> uhh lol 18:11:00 <langdon> so.. i think the best bet is.. i sent out a modularity update last week to devel.. did everyone here read it? need link? 18:11:16 <mattdm> yeah link please :) 18:11:24 <jwb> link would be good 18:11:27 * langdon mutters.. one sec 18:11:34 <jkurik> langdon: I have it on my todo list to go through it 18:11:44 <langdon> #link https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/UTNLVDK6TPGWKZHANSFAPJQLZFYLSI3X/?sort=thread 18:11:48 <mattdm> Looking back at the previous phase, I would say: this didn't generate a lot of noise, but we did get around to figuring out what this more concrete phase would look like :) 18:11:48 <decause> and a nice use-case on the commblog too: 18:11:51 <decause> #link https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/modularity-use-case-application-independence/ 18:12:34 <mattdm> I was expecting a little more response on devel 18:12:35 <langdon> well.. suffice to say.. it is time to move to a prototype phase for modularity.. we have some dedicated resources from red hat, we have me (which is questionable), and we are starting to get some good user stories 18:13:00 <mattdm> I guess maybe you did the "slip it in on Friday and hope the news cycle doesn't notice" thing a little too well 18:13:06 <langdon> we want to use a agile-y / scrum-y approach to the work.. always shipping demos.. 18:13:07 <mattdm> #nottheplan 18:13:14 <langdon> mattdm, lol 18:13:18 <jwb> mattdm: i think it's likely that status updates with no functional products that don't actually break or change anything people are using aren't going to generate a lot of discussion 18:13:20 * decause waves to tatica 18:13:47 <langdon> using taiga to load in stories.. right now the only work there is the content updates we have been doing.. the wiki page and the proposal for the objective 18:14:01 <decause> langdon: and the commblog post :) 18:14:13 <linuxmodder> mattdm, post mtg you think your'd have a few mins to spin me up on the modularity initiative? 18:14:31 <jkrieger> maybe we need a "how does agile-y/scrum-y approach actually work" wiki page langdon ? 18:14:33 <langdon> the objective asks for a "re-up" and to re-jigger the e&s and base working groups in to a modularity working group.. (depending on how you slice it...) 18:14:55 * langdon digs for discussion link about working groups between mattdm and ncoghlan 18:15:00 <mattdm> linuxmodder: possibly -- I have to take my kid to a doctor's appointment. 18:15:08 <langdon> jkrieger, ohh.. actually we have a stub of one.. 18:15:11 <mattdm> jkrieger++ 18:15:11 <zodbot> mattdm: Karma for jkrieger changed to 1 (for the f23 release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 18:15:18 <linuxmodder> mattdm, whenever didn't mean RIGHT after :) 18:15:30 <jkrieger> ok, langdon, when you can... show me and I will actually write it. 18:15:37 <decause> jkrieger++ 18:15:38 <zodbot> decause: Karma for jkrieger changed to 2 (for the f23 release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 18:15:46 <bconoboy> jkrieger++ 18:15:51 <langdon> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Modularization/Planning 18:15:52 <mattdm> jwb I think that's a good point, so I think langdon (and jkrieger)'s agile-with-demos approach will be helpful 18:16:12 <mattdm> the basic goal of this phase is to generate something concrete people can talk about 18:16:16 * langdon reads a little scrollback 18:16:18 <mattdm> and, ideally, not panic about :) 18:16:26 <decause> when the 'with-demos' part happens, commops will be happy to help socialize on commblog with you folks 18:16:30 * langdon notes mattdm will provide towels 18:16:45 <mattdm> langdon: for space travel, you mean? 18:17:01 <langdon> mattdm, for "not panicking" of course 18:17:11 <mattdm> yes, of course. always handy. 18:17:40 <langdon> mattdm, where was the convo about the working-groups? devel? or e&s? 18:17:55 <mattdm> In any case, has everyone read this proposal? Since we have the full council here (awesome!), are there any immediate concerns? 18:18:02 <mattdm> langdon: env-and-stacks list, yeah 18:18:36 * langdon waits for the internet 18:18:53 <langdon> #link https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/env-and-stacks@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/43UKYOPQKTLC2JVBLIODVAI4RQ3V334A/ 18:18:57 <bconoboy> I have read the proposal and think it's great. Having concrete a deliverable will be very helpful to keeping people on track. 18:19:21 <langdon> not great at meetbot'ing.. how do i say "this link is about blah"? #info? 18:19:31 <decause> nod nod 18:19:38 <cwickert> ! 18:19:41 <mattdm> jwb Do you think waiting for feedback is going to be useful at all, or just a bureaucratic step? 18:19:46 <mattdm> cwickert go! 18:19:52 <cwickert> not a concern, but 18:19:58 <langdon> #info see that link for discussion about e&s working group "mothballing" 18:19:58 <cwickert> I totally want this 18:20:07 <mattdm> cwickert: :) 18:20:11 <langdon> cwickert, which part? 18:20:14 * jwb thinks 18:20:14 <cwickert> but how far are we on the technical end? 18:20:25 <cwickert> langdon: modularization, all of it ;) 18:20:29 * tatica jumping on/off due awful internet :( 18:20:29 <tatica> I miss home 18:20:47 <jwb> mattdm: i think it will be mostly bureaucratic 18:21:09 <mattdm> I think _after_ we have something to show here, the next phase will be a lot more... interesting. :) 18:21:14 <langdon> cwickert, ahh.. yes.. early days yet.. but have some bits and pieces going.. just to get the engineers working together.. i would like a first sprint/demo in the next 2-3 weeks.. but, it may not look like much.. more "infra" 18:21:24 <cwickert> and from the governance side: do we have commitment from say FESCo and the relevant SIGs? 18:21:36 <jwb> mattdm: though i do wonder if the current base WG members even saw any of this 18:21:45 <jwb> mattdm: since they have no list like E&S 18:21:58 <sgallagh> jwb: Their list is devel@, though 18:22:09 <jwb> sgallagh: yes. but given the lack of response... 18:22:23 <jwb> cwickert: commitment to what exactly? 18:22:24 <sgallagh> cwickert: There was a proposal to the Server SIG last week that was well received. I'd tentatively call it commitment. 18:22:36 <sgallagh> At the very least, no one voiced objection 18:23:16 <cwickert> jwb: this will require a lot of changes and many people/groups involved. I expect QA to be the biggest opposition since nobody can test all the moduls and interdependencies. So we should start by making sure all relevant parties are with us. 18:23:26 <langdon> i have also gotten a number of queries like "how do i help" .. but not so much in a public response.. more like direct pms to say.. where do i start 18:23:39 <langdon> adamw, ping ^^ 18:23:39 <zodbot> langdon: Ping with data, please: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/No_naked_pings 18:23:47 <mattdm> cwickert yeah, agreed. 18:24:18 <langdon> cwickert, mattdm i have talked to some of QA/E adamw (mostly) and a few others 18:24:19 <cwickert> how about a session on this issue with representatives from say QA and rel-eng, too? 18:24:27 <mattdm> I've spoken to release engineering, and they're onboard in theory although interested in specifics 18:24:31 <jwb> cwickert: i believe that testing of modules cannot be done to completion, particularly when they really start to proliferate. however, getting QA and rel-eng on board is required, yes 18:24:32 <cwickert> cool 18:25:01 <mattdm> I've spoken to tflink a little bit about technical/tooling needs 18:25:01 <jwb> cwickert: from a FESCo point of view, i'm not sure there's much for them to commit to. at least in the near term 18:25:08 <langdon> jwb, cwickert mattdm i actually want them to have "official" representation in the "modularity wg" .. but i am not sure how we structure that 18:25:19 <adamw> langdon: sorry, on a phone call 18:25:23 <cwickert> langdon: sounds good 18:25:23 <robyduck> I think cwickert got the point here, the proposal is great, but this will involve a lot of teams/sigs/groups 18:25:39 <langdon> in theory.. all of fedora at some point :) 18:25:43 <sgallagh> jwb: Well, it will end up being a significant change in how the distro is constructed and delivered, so I think a FESCo rubber-stamp is probably a good idea 18:25:49 <mattdm> checking my watch, I don't think we want to actually _have_ the discussion with QA/adamw right now :) 18:26:01 * decause agrees 18:26:02 <robyduck> right 18:26:12 <jwb> sgallagh: we have 0 actual technology and only words on wiki pages 18:26:19 <langdon> mattdm, i guess i was looking for them to say.. yeah, we have discussed it and we don't think it is a terrible idea ;) 18:26:22 <mattdm> So, proposal: let's give this a week with reaching out to those groups specifically for comment, and then open a ticket for council voting next week. 18:26:29 <cwickert> robyduck: right. I'm also afraid some SIGs will feel as 2nd class citizens again, even though this proposal brings more flexibility and freedom for them. 18:26:32 <langdon> jwb, hey.. BIG words though! 18:26:32 <jwb> so yeah, when we're at the point where we can even demo a module being created, then we can start pinging people for buy in 18:26:40 <jwb> doing it *now* buys us nothing 18:26:43 <sgallagh> jwb: So what you're saying is we're further along on this than on many things with Change Proposals? :) 18:26:48 <mattdm> jwb: that's not true. we also have a chart with *arrows* 18:26:54 <robyduck> cwickert: i fear that too 18:27:10 * cwickert looks at the KDE guys... :( 18:27:12 <jwb> sgallagh: and yet not far enough to claim the world is changing. alas. 18:27:12 <langdon> and ascii art... ohh.. arrghh.. mattdm we forgot the ascii art 18:27:14 <decause> srsly tho, did you see all those arrows? 18:27:15 <decause> :) 18:27:24 <jwb> cwickert: wait, what? 18:27:36 <jwb> cwickert: how is this anything but a positive for groups like KDE? 18:27:55 <cwickert> jwb: I know, but do they know? 18:28:03 <sgallagh> (alternately, where did we screw up the conversation if it looks like it's not) 18:28:12 <mattdm> yeah, what sgallagh said :) 18:28:15 * langdon wonders if i need to do a tour of all the WGs/SIGs 18:28:47 <cwickert> jwb: I just want to make sure that nobody falls behind. If we start with a demo that involves say GNOME, the KDE SIG will be the first to complain I'm afraid 18:28:50 <sgallagh> langdon: Do you remember the diagram from Flock Prague of all the WGs/SIGs in Fedora? That could take months 18:29:02 <langdon> sgallagh, lol.. point 18:29:13 <jwb> cwickert: nobody is going to start a demo with an entire desktop environment stack 18:29:19 <sgallagh> cwickert: Well, the Server SIG basically volunteered to be the guinea pigs here. 18:29:20 <langdon> cwickert, the demo we have in the works involves a terminal :) 18:29:23 <sgallagh> Which is probably non-controversial 18:29:38 <cwickert> #link https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-lifthhJ5HwY/U-YwWeD2fhI/AAAAAAAALtE/29YIEDNhmM03MgbNbNX5vgaePSs_ErXoA/w1111-h833-no/09.08.14%2B-%2B1 18:29:53 <sgallagh> cwickert: I love that you had that readily to hand 18:29:54 <mattdm> langdon: a tour seems like a good idea. is a week enough for that or do you need more? 18:30:06 <langdon> mattdm, uhh.. are you kidding? 18:30:18 <robyduck> :) 18:30:18 <jwb> a week is not going to cover it 18:30:23 <langdon> for the entire board? or should we pick some? 18:30:23 <jwb> a month is more realistic 18:30:36 <jwb> however, i don't think we should delay actual work 18:30:43 <cwickert> +1 18:30:51 <langdon> i wonder if we could use fedocal.. and offer to the peeps that have meetings? 18:31:51 <jkurik> langdon: my experience is that fedocal does not work. Just a few people is using it 18:32:17 <mattdm> So, should we give, like, tentative approval, and a go-ahead for investment of initial effort? 18:32:22 <decause> langdon: we can have a calendar, and then socialize it more tradtionally via lists/commblog. 18:32:34 <langdon> decause, ohh that's smart 18:32:43 <langdon> decause, maybe you could do the talks too ;) 18:32:47 <decause> langdon: I just created 2 new fedocals in the past week, def recommend 18:32:54 * robyduck is also for commblog 18:33:21 <jwb> mattdm: i think we approve fully, then get to work 18:33:22 <decause> we don't have as much visibility as magazine, but it can be a central platform at least 18:33:30 * decause is ready to approve 18:33:32 <jwb> i really fear the longer we spend talking, the more in the weeds we'll get 18:33:48 <jwb> if we have things to *show* when we talk, it should help us focus on concrete issues 18:33:49 <mattdm> jwb: with 'socialize this' as part of the 'getting to work', basically. 18:33:55 <langdon> ohh.. maybe i am confused.. i was thinking 3-6 meetings of "what modularization means to you" with like 3 focii, then people can come and attend? 18:34:00 <jzb> jwb: +1 18:34:03 <jwb> mattdm: no, with 'ACTUALLY START BUILDING THINGS' 18:34:19 <jwb> mattdm: socializing meetings is an additional activity 18:34:33 <langdon> jwb, how about just demos then? 18:34:39 <jwb> langdon: however we structure it, sure 18:34:40 <langdon> and people can ask qs? 18:34:40 <mattdm> jwb: like an activity I should draw on my chart? :) 18:34:53 <langdon> with arrows! 18:35:05 <jwb> mattdm: sure. with arrows to each of the groups we need to reach out to 18:35:10 <jwb> langdon: jinx 18:35:27 <mattdm> ok, so, is anyone -1 to approving this _now_? 18:35:36 * decause nope 18:35:37 <jkurik> I am +1 18:35:40 <decause> +1 18:35:47 <langdon> i like the original proposal (where I put words in jwb's mouth).. how about we just start doing demos.. invite the whole world.. poke some people in individual groups.. and wait for bug reports? 18:36:30 <mattdm> Approving the objective doesn't mean that we're commiting to giant changes in Fedora, especially as this is explicitly an exploration/demo 18:36:41 <langdon> mattdm, +1 18:36:43 <mattdm> and given that I'm +1 for now too 18:36:47 <jkrieger> sounds like an agile demo. :D select a small starting chunk of work, demo a proof of concept, and ask for feedback 18:37:22 <mattdm> cwickert: what do you think? 18:38:11 <cwickert> +1 18:38:15 * robyduck is +1 for it 18:38:23 * langdon is obviously +1 18:38:25 <mattdm> cool, okay, that makes it easy 18:38:32 <mattdm> langdon: you can't be +1 _twice_ 18:38:38 <mattdm> i mean, you can, but I'm only counting once 18:38:43 <langdon> mattdm, i was commenting on your ocmment above.. 18:39:06 <langdon> but.. +1 +1 +1 +1 18:39:11 <langdon> :) 18:39:13 <decause> :) 18:39:18 <mattdm> #agreed Council approves Modularization Objective prototype phase. Demos will commence! 18:39:25 <decause> \o/ 18:39:29 <jzb> woot 18:39:30 <mattdm> #info along with specific discussions with various WGs and SIGs 18:39:35 <mattdm> okay next! 18:39:36 * jzb is psyched to see this 18:39:37 <robyduck> cool 18:39:43 * langdon wonders how in (*&*&@ he is going to get videos using OSS 18:39:55 <mattdm> #topic University Involvement Objective 18:39:57 <decause> langdon: jitsi was good for sync, but doesn't do saving 18:39:58 <jwb> langdon: jitsi? 18:40:11 * decause clears his throat and shuffles papers 18:40:21 <decause> so 18:40:24 <mattdm> last time I used jitsi, everyone spoke like darth vader 18:40:27 <mattdm> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives/University_Involvement_Initiative 18:40:46 <decause> this first item is, we developed a decent looking logic model 18:40:47 <decause> #link 18:40:47 <decause> 5 http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives/University_Involvement_Initiative#Overview 18:40:48 <jzb> mattdm: I told you, I always sound like that. 18:40:52 <langdon> mattdm, so that is a +1 for jitsi? 18:40:59 * decause tries that again 18:41:04 <decause> #link 18:41:05 <decause> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives/University_Involvement_Initiative#Overview 18:41:14 <decause> ... 18:41:21 <decause> it should still show up in the minutes 18:41:38 <decause> shoutout to mizmo for the pixel ninja'ing skills 18:41:56 <mattdm> My concern with this picture is its lack of arrows :) 18:42:12 <decause> #action decause moar arrows in the EDU logic model 18:42:41 <decause> There were a number of aspects to the model, some more traditional, and some new 18:42:53 <mattdm> And I mean that in a haha-only-serious kind of way... this picture gives a nice overview but it's hard to see how inputs connect through 18:43:01 <decause> traditional includes things like installfests and events on campuses 18:43:09 <mattdm> or in reverse how all of the desired outcomes are supported 18:43:40 <decause> mattdm: yes, perhaps we can do a more column-ular approach like the modular objective 18:43:54 <decause> this was born of a spreadsheet afterall, and was already column-ular 18:44:20 <mattdm> spreadsheets are not the best tool either because they're also inherently... row-ular? 18:44:36 <mattdm> langdon said it's a "mindmap with swimlanes" 18:44:53 <decause> well put 18:45:07 * langdon has a hard time staying in swimlanes 18:45:10 <decause> I think that revisiting the graphics of it will be easier now that mizmo is back in the fold 18:45:24 <decause> #action decause revisit EDU logic model with Fedora Design team 18:45:43 <mattdm> So, I guess the question for us is, logic model aside for a minute... 18:45:53 * decause pauses 18:45:58 <mattdm> This didn't go very far in this school year 18:46:06 <mattdm> Do we want to renew it for the next one 18:46:08 <cwickert> ? 18:46:10 <mattdm> or are we on to other things? 18:46:25 <decause> mattdm: lemme grab some highlights 18:46:26 <decause> first 18:46:34 <decause> #info After Software Freedom Day 2015, we have a PoC model for future 18:46:34 <decause> Badge-a-thon contests and coverage: 18:46:39 <decause> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Softwarefreedomday/2015#Badge-a-thon 18:46:43 <decause> #link https://fedoramagazine.org/celebrating-software-freedom-day-2015/ 18:46:52 <mattdm> cwickert: yes? 18:46:59 <decause> #info We are sponsoring participating in more University Level Hackathons in NA, such as brickhack, bitcamp, and HackRU: 18:47:00 <cwickert> my question is: what did we invest and what did we get in return? was it that we did not have enough people from our side are was the response the problem? 18:47:04 <decause> #link https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/find-fedora-at-brickhack-2016/ 18:47:10 <cwickert> s/are/or 18:47:11 <decause> #info Fedora Campus Ambassadors Initiative is showing renewed interest 18:47:17 <decause> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Campus_Ambassadors 18:47:34 <decause> those are the 'traditional' things we've usually done 18:47:49 <decause> as far as the 'newer'-ish things: 18:47:58 <decause> #info Fedora has participated in both rounds of Outreachy this year. 18:48:03 <decause> #link https://wiki.gnome.org/Outreachy/2016/MayAugust 18:48:07 <decause> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Outreachy/2016 18:48:11 <decause> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Outreachy/2015 18:48:17 <decause> and 18:48:21 <decause> #info Fedora/Project Atomic has been accepted this year to Google Summer of Code! 18:48:27 <decause> #link https://summerofcode.withgoogle.com/organizations/5630777857409024/ 18:48:38 <decause> so 18:48:47 <mattdm> cwickert: that's a good question. decause, would you consider these things basically under that umbrella of investment in this area? 18:49:26 <decause> mattdm: yes, unless we want to include those into a new Diversity and Inclusion Objective (which i would be amenable to) 18:49:26 <cwickert> mattdm: mainly manpower, I don't care about money at this point 18:50:41 <decause> what we invested was me, mostly 18:50:52 <mattdm> :) 18:50:58 <decause> and the time that went into the oboarding programs def beared fruit 18:51:16 <mattdm> I'm lookin' at the clock again -- sorry, I haven't been keeping things moving as I should 18:51:29 <decause> folks like jflory7 and bee2502 have come directly from these initiatives, and have had massive project wide impact, IMHO 18:51:45 <mattdm> decause, could you put together a summary of how things have gone against the desired outcomes and impact, in as numerical terms as possible? 18:51:46 <decause> just to name two 18:51:58 <mattdm> for the mailing list 18:52:05 <mattdm> and then we'll pick up the conversation from there? 18:52:20 <decause> sure, do we have a preferred format or list of questions? 18:52:29 <decause> we are getting along in meeting time 18:52:34 <mattdm> decause: hasn't been done before so you get to make the format :) 18:52:49 <decause> #action decause report back to council-disucss on EDU Involvement Objective 18:52:52 <mattdm> yeah, I want to get to the "possible new objectives" 18:52:55 <mattdm> cool thanks decause 18:53:03 <mattdm> #topic Possible new objectives 18:53:33 <mattdm> okay, so, we set this up with 2-4 objectives in play at a given time 18:53:43 * decause has one when we're ready 18:53:51 <mattdm> decause: okay go! 18:54:01 <decause> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives/Fedora_Marketing_Python 18:54:22 <decause> from the overview: 18:54:27 <decause> #info It has been suggested that Fedora take on on Marketing as a top-level objective this year to increase our exposure in the developer community. Rather than try to market to every developer everywhere, we want to focus on a specific community. This is similar to the Fedora.next strategy of separate editions — we can have bigger impact by really winning in individual areas and growing from there than we can in attempting to appeal to all peopl 18:54:31 <cwickert> somebody just switched off the lights in my office, I should probably go home 18:54:59 <decause> and that community we identified was the python community 18:55:07 <mattdm> cwickert: good thing they didn't cut the internet :) 18:55:12 <decause> which has lots in common with fedora, including major stakeholders 18:55:31 <jzb> you have a screen and Internet, right? That's plenty of light. 18:55:44 <decause> the first big milestone is coming fast, May 27th for PyCon NA 18:56:30 <decause> we want to have a set of materials for both "Premier Events" and "Local Events" that ambassadors can use to engage with pythonistas 18:57:01 <mattdm> I'm generally in favor of this. I like the focused approach, Python is a natural, and the developer focus fits perfectly with plans for both Fedora Workstation and Fedora Atomic 18:57:10 <decause> I think it'd also be a good idea to discuss official relationships at the project level between Fedora and PSF, and other supporting orgs in the python ecosystem eventually 18:57:19 <langdon> decause, i would like to see more "formal" component of impact/connection to 1) the uni objective 2) the workstation wg (specifically, would the python spin be the best dev workstation for python people?) ... and, perhaps, some objective line item about python.org recommending fedora for new python people 18:57:22 <mattdm> I assume Fedora Marketing is on board? 18:57:54 * langdon realizes psf would have been shorter than python.org but had been planning to write it out ;) 18:57:57 <jzb> mattdm: yes. 18:58:03 <decause> mattdm: Fedora Marketing has had 3 meetings this year so far, and is still coming back online, but yes, it has been a topic of discussion 18:58:29 <mattdm> jzb, decause cool. 18:58:54 <jzb> mattdm: to decause's point, "coming back online" is a good way to say that marketing is sort of under refresh 18:59:06 <mattdm> Okay, so, let's take this back to the mailing lists too. Maybe get marketing to help fill out hte proposal as part of the refresh? 18:59:15 <jzb> mattdm: and this objective gives us a good focal point instead of "boil the ocean" and "market all the things" 18:59:21 <mattdm> jzb++ 18:59:23 <decause> agreed 18:59:23 <zodbot> mattdm: Karma for jzb changed to 6 (for the f23 release cycle): https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any 18:59:25 <decause> jzb++ 18:59:42 <decause> happy to take it back to the lists, but 18:59:47 <langdon> decause, did you see my comment(s)? 19:00:01 <decause> if it needs a lead, I should probably be on either EDU or this 19:00:05 <mattdm> okay, so, nominally 30 seconds left. I can go on for a bit, although my kids have showed up and are telling me aobut how to find the areas of parallelograms 19:00:31 <langdon> mattdm, tell em to go calc pi for pi day.. that should occupy them for a bit 19:00:36 <decause> langdon: I did see your comment, and it would be great to tie it into other objectives 19:00:36 <langdon> 22/7 19:01:04 <mattdm> decause: *nod* Yeah, we should not have the same person as lead on two things, because I think that's a recipie for both of them to half succeed :) 19:01:24 <decause> langdon: we should have a 'objectives' support group or something where we (leads) talk this out on the regular 19:01:26 <jzb> perhaps the discussion on both topics will help us decide on lead(s) 19:01:30 <mattdm> so, other possible proposals: 19:01:43 * langdon wonders how he could expense the beer 19:01:48 <mattdm> - I sugggested an OpenShift❤Fedora thing, but that didn't get many bites earlier 19:02:08 <jwb> decause: wait... what? 19:02:10 <langdon> mattdm, did you suggest that to the openshift people? 19:02:15 <decause> mattdm: that being said, even IF I were to reliquish EDU Lead, I would still be willing (and a good fit) for the GSoC Admin and Outreachy Coordinator activities 19:02:17 <mattdm> - Also, Fedora Hubs might be a good one -- but as I understand from Apps/Infra, that's probably the latter half of the year 19:02:35 <decause> mattdm: we've had like 10+ people express interest since our gsoc announce :) 19:02:42 <mattdm> langdon: I did to scott collier and to diane mueller, but did not get much more than polite nods 19:02:48 <mattdm> well, that's not quite fair 19:02:54 <decause> we're gaining community momentum, but yeah, after FLOCK I think would be a good time to propose as objective 19:03:11 <mattdm> scollier and infrastructure are working together to stand up an instance of openshift in fedora infro 19:03:12 <mattdm> a 19:03:15 <mattdm> which is AWESOME 19:03:20 * langdon thinks mattdm should approach openshift evangelists.. 19:03:22 <mattdm> but the objective part wasn't so clear 19:03:32 <mattdm> langdon: if you want to hook me up with people, I totally will 19:03:41 <langdon> will do 19:03:48 <mattdm> thanks! 19:04:02 <decause> jwb: was suggesting regularish meetings for Objective leads to work together 19:04:04 <mattdm> #action langdon to connect mattdm with openshift evangelists 19:04:12 <jwb> decause: re: objective leads support group, just use the council-discuss list. there is no reason NOT to spread that kind of knowledge 19:04:23 <mattdm> decause: you mean, beyound the Council? 19:04:33 <jwb> decause: and if it's done regularly, it could help encourage people to setup new Objectives since they then know how 19:04:37 * cwickert needs to leave 19:04:39 <cwickert> see you 19:04:51 <langdon> jwb, mkes a good point.. but does not solve the beer acquisition problem 19:05:33 * langdon belatedly waves to cwickert 19:05:35 <jwb> langdon: pfft. you are not thinking. just make 'beer' one of the outcomes (or input!) of your Objective and we'll be obligated to fund it 19:05:50 <decause> jwb: def def, not suggesting we don't communicate in public or keep council up to date, using council list as place to discuss, I just know that I do regular "hack sessions" with commops folks to tackle tickets and whatnot, and could do with a "power session" to tackle objective related tasks 19:05:57 <mattdm> connect it through with arrows, and I'll be sold. 19:06:05 <langdon> jwb, lol! at double or even triple the rate of $0 last year 19:06:17 <decause> jwb: brillant 19:06:40 <jwb> decause: sure. power sessions are cool too. just as long as they have a summary email to council-discuss at the end :) 19:06:47 <decause> jwb: agreed 19:06:55 * langdon had another objective idea in mind.. but it is gone now.. 19:07:02 <decause> :P 19:07:22 * langdon intentionally vague pronoun just for mattdm 19:07:37 <mattdm> I definitely would like Council to stay the center of gravity around objectives -- otherwise, we're back to the org chart whiteboard mess 19:07:40 <langdon> ^ provided 19:08:05 <langdon> decause, we could have those "meetings"in fedora-council.. i should think 19:08:05 * mattdm thinks maybe map of fedora as http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--_5rk36gF--/18r7z4vs073ocjpg.jpg is in order 19:08:06 <decause> mattdm: didn't mean to imply a separate group, just a dedicated chunk of time to work on objective related materials 19:08:27 <mattdm> decause: yeah, sounds like a good idea 19:08:29 <langdon> where is cthulu? 19:08:39 <mattdm> langdon: _different_ verse 19:08:55 <langdon> or just under the turtles 19:09:04 <mattdm> also, different universe : 19:09:07 <jkurik> mattdm: reptilians are missing 19:09:12 <mattdm> okay I can see we are winding down now :) 19:09:25 <decause> nod nod 19:09:32 <mattdm> Good meeting, y'all 19:09:35 * langdon was just gonna say that but couldn't spell deteriorating.. 19:09:46 <decause> so we approved modularization++, and we're going to talk about Fedora-marketing and EDU intiatives on the list, yes? 19:09:46 <mattdm> #action mattdm to update Objectives page with link to new Modularization phase 19:09:53 <mattdm> decause: yeah, exactly 19:10:00 <decause> kk, word 19:10:03 <langdon> uhhh... 19:10:06 <mattdm> and continue discussion of a possible 4th 19:10:10 <langdon> fedora-marketing = objective? 19:10:20 <langdon> or am i just reading that wrong? 19:10:21 <mattdm> fedora-python-marketing = proposed objective 19:10:25 <decause> fedora-marketing-python = objective 19:10:29 <decause> mattdm: jinx! 19:10:32 <langdon> mattdm, ahh gotcha.. sorry 19:10:33 <mattdm> :) 19:10:34 <decause> this wavelength thing 19:10:35 <decause> :) 19:11:26 <mattdm> okay, so, ending in 3...2...1... 19:11:28 <mattdm> 3... 19:11:33 <mattdm> 2... 19:11:35 <mattdm> 1... 19:11:39 <mattdm> #endmeeting