14:00:01 <stickster> #startmeeting Workstation WG
14:00:01 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Aug 17 14:00:01 2016 UTC.  The chair is stickster. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:00:01 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:00:01 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation_wg'
14:00:02 <stickster> #meetingname workstation
14:00:02 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'workstation'
14:00:04 <stickster> #topic Roll call
14:00:06 <stickster> .hello pfrields
14:00:06 <zodbot> stickster: pfrields 'Paul W. Frields' <stickster@gmail.com>
14:00:11 <nathan95> hello
14:00:13 <ryanlerch> .hello ryanlerch
14:00:14 <zodbot> ryanlerch: ryanlerch 'Ryan Lerch' <rlerch@redhat.com>
14:02:50 <mclasen> .hello mclasen
14:02:51 <zodbot> mclasen: mclasen 'Matthias Clasen' <mclasen@redhat.com>
14:02:59 <stickster> .chair ryanlerch mclasen
14:02:59 <zodbot> ryanlerch mclasen is seated in a chair with a nice view of a placid lake, unsuspecting that another chair is about to be slammed into them.
14:03:07 <stickster> oops
14:03:08 <mcatanzaro> .hello Catanzaro
14:03:08 <zodbot> mcatanzaro: Sorry, but you don't exist
14:03:10 <stickster> oopshaha
14:03:16 <stickster> #chair ryanlerch mclasen mcatanzaro
14:03:16 <zodbot> Current chairs: mcatanzaro mclasen ryanlerch stickster
14:03:22 <mcatanzaro> .hello catanzaro
14:03:23 <zodbot> mcatanzaro: catanzaro 'None' <mcatanzaro@gnome.org>
14:03:24 <mclasen> stickster: bizarro
14:04:00 <mcatanzaro> So has zodbot gone crazy? "ryanlerch mclasen is seated in a chair with a nice view of a placid lake" ???
14:04:08 <mcatanzaro> I guess it's cute....
14:04:12 <stickster> mcatanzaro: since I used .chair instead of #chair :-)
14:04:29 <mcatanzaro> .chair stickster
14:04:29 <zodbot> stickster is seated in a chair with a nice view of a placid lake, unsuspecting that another chair is about to be slammed into them.
14:04:30 * stickster wonders how many other Easter eggs there are in there :-)
14:04:35 <mcatanzaro> Hmmmm
14:04:51 <kalev> hello
14:04:57 <stickster> #chair kalev
14:04:57 <zodbot> Current chairs: kalev mcatanzaro mclasen ryanlerch stickster
14:05:05 * stickster sees quorum and gets started
14:05:23 <sgallagh> When exactly did Steve Ballmer get put in charge of Zodbot?
14:05:57 <stickster> hey, the guy loves Linux now... right? *crickets*
14:06:07 <stickster> #topic F25 talking points
14:06:45 <stickster> So jflory7 contacted me the other night about talking points for the next release. Although we're still shy of Alpha, it's not too early to start thinking about the major theme(s) for Workstation we want to promulgate for the release
14:07:01 <stickster> By coincidence, a current discussion is underway for Wayland by default ;-)
14:08:21 <stickster> As I was looking to assemble a short, preliminary list, I visited the Workstation tasklist on the wiki
14:08:34 <stickster> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Workstation/Tasklist
14:08:59 * mclasen starts orca to check
14:10:59 <mclasen> stickster: was there a question ?
14:11:05 <stickster> The tasklist could definitely use some updating, I think mclasen usually brings that into alignment with reality each release
14:11:15 <ryanlerch> stickster: the wayland story is probably the biggest one there (covering a few of the work items on that list)
14:11:42 <mclasen> I can go over the tasklist next week when I'm back in the office
14:11:50 <stickster> mclasen: Ah! I didn't realize you were still out
14:12:01 <mclasen> back on tuesday
14:12:06 <stickster> gotcha
14:12:09 <ryanlerch> plus the new items that we will get from the next GNOME release too
14:12:32 <mclasen> flatpak support in gnome-software ?
14:12:46 <stickster> #action mclasen revise Workstation tasklist on wiki with work items from 3.22, GUADEC, etc. next week-ish
14:13:57 <nathan95> ok
14:14:04 <ryanlerch> stickster: can "wayland" be a theme?
14:14:27 <stickster> ryanlerch: Well, it's certainly a talking point which is the main issue here
14:14:47 <stickster> mclasen: and David's work with rpm-ostree based Workstation prototype... what are next steps for us to be able to offer something for public download (even by a reduced set of intrepid early adopters)?
14:15:07 <stickster> #info talking point: Wayland as default (still TBD but looking more likely)
14:16:08 <mclasen> for the rpm-ostree based workstation prototype, we need to take the work that colin has done, and move it into the repository thats built by rel-eng
14:17:28 <stickster> mclasen: has someone discussed the details with e.g. admiller or dgilmore?  I don't know what that move entails
14:17:55 <mclasen> I don't think so; put this on my list for next week too
14:18:33 * stickster feels like he's loading up mclasen's list unfairly :-)
14:19:05 <stickster> #info talking point: early preview of rpm-ostree based Workstation (potential)
14:19:12 <stickster> On the topic of flatpak support... I'm not caught up on e.g. hughsie blogs; what kind of expanded support is there?
14:20:02 <mcatanzaro> Installing flatpaks, updating flatpaks, removing flatpaks
14:20:04 * stickster kind of guesses there is a flood of post-GUADEC ideas/hacking/etc. on the way or perhaps already hitting the airwaves
14:21:13 <stickster> #info talking point: more flatpak support in GNOME Software (install, update, remove)
14:21:13 <mclasen> stickster: automatically installing required and related runtimes
14:21:22 <stickster> #undo
14:21:22 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: INFO by stickster at 14:21:13 : talking point: more flatpak support in GNOME Software (install, update, remove)
14:21:33 <stickster> #info talking point: more flatpak support in GNOME Software (install, update, remove, auto-install required and related runtimes)
14:23:59 * stickster wracks brain for other psosible themes upcoming
14:24:26 <stickster> #action stickster contact Matthew Miller + Stephen Gallagher to get outputs from the Flock session on updated Workstation PRD
14:24:57 <sgallagh> stickster: The notes were posted to the Council list
14:25:03 <stickster> ^ We had some good discussion there. I don't remember all of it because I was sick and dosed on meds, but I do remember there was some excellent discussion that we might be able to
14:25:03 <sgallagh> One moment and I'll get you a link
14:25:09 <stickster> ...to mine here.
14:25:18 <stickster> sgallagh: that's awesome, thank you sir!
14:25:24 <stickster> sgallagh++
14:25:26 <zodbot> stickster: Karma for sgallagh changed to 7 (for the f24 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:25:29 <stickster> COOKIE FOR YOU!
14:25:39 <stickster> mclasen++
14:25:39 <zodbot> stickster: Karma for mclasen changed to 1 (for the f24 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:25:41 <sgallagh> stickster: https://fedorahosted.org/council/attachment/ticket/63/PRDLogicModels.txt
14:25:50 <stickster> and you get a cookie, and you get a cookie... everyone gets a cookie!
14:25:51 <dgilmore> mclasen: stickster: we are already making workstation ostree
14:26:07 <stickster> dgilmore++
14:26:07 <zodbot> stickster: Karma for ausil changed to 2 (for the f24 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
14:26:16 <dgilmore> we have zero flatpak anything
14:26:42 <dgilmore> and zero infra stto support it
14:26:42 <stickster> dgilmore: Is there anything you're in need of from the WG (or desktop folks) for the rpm-ostree Workstation to be available for people to d/l or try at F25?
14:27:10 <dgilmore> stickster: its already all in place. it needs testing and confirmation that it works
14:27:11 <mclasen> dgilmore: I know - but colin has a fork of that work that he's building in centos ci, which has some extra features we want
14:27:20 <dgilmore> the WG needs to work with QA on that
14:27:42 <dgilmore> mclasen: well then he needs to get that into Fedora
14:27:59 <dgilmore> and any changes that are needed by us need to be communicated to us
14:28:20 <mclasen> I know, the ball is in our court
14:29:44 <stickster> mclasen: I can contact adamw & the #fedora-qa folks to find out how we can best work with QA on testing/confirmation here
14:30:08 <stickster> ISTM we can easily have that discussion productively on the mailing list
14:31:30 <stickster> #action stickster start rpm-ostree Workstation testing discussion on desktop@ list w/ adamw & QA team -- e.g. what testing is mandatory, what can the WG help with
14:31:59 <stickster> methinks F25 has kind of clobbered us schedule-wise, what with summer, Flock etc.
14:33:53 <mcatanzaro> Anything else on this? Are we ready to move on...?
14:33:57 <stickster> mcatanzaro: I am.
14:34:37 <stickster> #topic Open floor (all other business)
14:35:14 <mcatanzaro> stickster: What about Wayland readiness?
14:35:28 <stickster> #info === Wayland readiness ===
14:35:33 <stickster> :-)
14:36:24 <stickster> One of the proximate issues brought up on list was fallback on not having apps started by root
14:36:59 <mcatanzaro> Now seems like as good a time as any to break those apps
14:37:00 <mclasen> gedit actually starts with sudo -E
14:37:06 <mclasen> gparted doesn't
14:37:41 <mcatanzaro> FWIW, I have seen *multiple* users need to get their computers reflashed because they accidentally ran GUI apps (e.g. rhythmbox) as root, then the apps would not start anymore
14:38:12 <stickster> mcatanzaro: due to file permissions being reset during the as-root run?
14:38:13 * mclasen doesn't see the connection
14:38:18 <mcatanzaro> stickster: Yes
14:38:57 <stickster> well, we certainly don't want to *encourage* users to run things as root, I think the question is more about things that more or less *have* to run that way, and what happens to them
14:39:00 <mcatanzaro> Many apps are understandably not prepared to handle user files suddenly becoming root-owned
14:39:31 <mcatanzaro> stickster: No apps have to run as root. Apps should use polkit. It's been along more than long enough by now.
14:40:31 <mclasen> we have patches for polkit-mediated privilege escalation in gvfs in the works
14:40:33 <mcatanzaro> It's unfortunate that GParted still requires root, but is it really a blocker for us? (I guess I don't care very much about GParted....)
14:40:36 <stickster> Are there alternatives to the problem apps like gparted?  (Disks, for example, doesn't seem to handle the same functions)
14:40:41 <mclasen> not sure they will make 3.22, though
14:41:07 <mclasen> stickster: it handles most of them, except for lvm
14:41:53 <stickster> mclasen: Can you grab/resize partitions in Disks? I don't recall that being easy. But then again, I'm not sure this is something that people do often
14:42:23 <stickster> You can do it (well, resizing, minus the visual "grabbing") in parted at the terminal IIRC
14:42:49 <stickster> I would hesitate to say "gparted doesn't work" is a blocker for Wayland
14:42:53 <sgallagh> stickster: Maybe we should be advocating the use of Cockpit for this purpose?
14:43:00 <stickster> sgallagh: what a great point ;-)
14:43:07 <mcatanzaro> TBH I don't know what all Disks supports, because we use LVM by default in Fedora, and Disks doesn't support that
14:43:10 <sgallagh> Cockpit can handle much of gparted's capabilities
14:43:19 <sgallagh> (including LVM)
14:43:23 <stickster> sgallagh: bingo
14:43:47 <tibbs> It's not hard to wrap sudo in something that manipulates XAUTHORITY to let you run any X app as root if you really want to.
14:44:01 <mcatanzaro> Some other significant issues: window focus sometimes gets messed up so you can't type into a particular application (see Peter Robinson's email on the list, it's quite annoying)
14:44:13 <tibbs> https://paste.fedoraproject.org/409682/71445042/ if anyone _really_ cares.
14:44:38 <mcatanzaro> No clipboard support in WebKit (Peter Robinson says it should be a blocker; I probably have a conflict of interest here though in that my employer would charge to fix this)
14:44:57 <mcatanzaro> gnome-shell not being able to restart (annoying but probably not a blocker)
14:45:27 <mcatanzaro> "Show Keyboard Layout" (libgnomekbd) crashes immediately (blocker IMO)
14:45:43 <mcatanzaro> sushi is totally broken (blocker IMO unless we remove it from nautilus)
14:46:05 <mcatanzaro> No clipboard manager: if you Copy in an app and close the app, whatever you Copied gets lost; it's expected to be saved by mutter
14:46:32 <mcatanzaro> gtk_window_present is broken, extremely annoying when starting gedit or Epiphany
14:47:19 <mcatanzaro> a11y problems, remote desktop/VMs not working, reported by Christian Stadelmann
14:47:34 <mcatanzaro> #link https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=wayland
14:47:38 <mcatanzaro> #link https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=WaylandRelated
14:47:58 <mcatanzaro> #link https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=WaylandRelated
14:48:03 <mcatanzaro> OK, that's all I've got
14:48:43 <mcatanzaro> I'm on the fence TBH, none of these seem like total blockers to me, but all of them collectively... would be nice to make some more progress on this
14:49:48 * mcatanzaro notes that he tagged some of those issues as blockers, then said "none are blockers"... I'm not very consistent about such things
14:49:50 * mclasen gets annoyed by endless blocker lists
14:50:05 <stickster> mcatanzaro: you are legion, you contain many ;-)
14:50:13 <mclasen> its the way we're making it impossible for us to every get it done
14:50:32 <mcatanzaro> Thing is, if we never switch the default, progress on these issues will remain slow; I'm pretty sure things will improve once we make the switch and stick to it
14:50:40 <stickster> I think it's important to point out we're not *removing* Xorg, so people can fall back where needed
14:51:02 <stickster> That's especially important for a11y, but we should be clear about it in e.g. talking points
14:51:04 <mcatanzaro> And we are pretty close. And we're not *removing* Xorg, so people can fall back where needed. ;)
14:51:07 <stickster> *jinx
14:51:27 * mclasen is appalled that orca segfaults under wayland
14:52:09 * stickster would like to see us make a call on Wayland as an agenda item next meeting
14:52:37 * mcatanzaro doubts much will change in two weeks, but also notes we only have 8 minutes left now
14:52:53 <stickster> personally, I'm +1 to switch for no other reasons than what mcatanzaro already cited -- (1) not removing Xorg, and (2) it's sort of a forcing function for big bugs
14:53:10 <stickster> there's no doubt that Wayland has been quite usable now for more than one release
14:53:37 <stickster> mcatanzaro: yeah, just want to give folks heads-up, and make sure that a few more WG people are present for that :-)
14:53:48 * kalev has to leave now, sorry guys.
14:53:57 <mcatanzaro> I think I'm +1 as well, but it's a tough call; I'm sure we'll get criticized for this, it reinforces the "Fedora is a testbed" belief we've been trying to get rid of
14:54:02 <stickster> kalev: We'll assign all the Wayland bugs to you, no problem ;-)
14:54:05 <kalev> :)
14:54:29 <mcatanzaro> We do have several fans, though, on Reddit and Google+ and other places, commenting on how good our Wayland support is in F24
14:54:33 <stickster> the alternative is "Fedora takes forever to use new stuff" :-)
14:54:57 <mcatanzaro> stickster: I think we're pretty much immune to that, we'll be first regardless
14:55:11 <sgallagh> Not that I have a vote, but I'm in the "rip off the band-aid" camp
14:55:15 <stickster> *nod
14:55:22 <stickster> OK, anything else on this before we move on?
14:55:33 <stickster> #action stickster make sure "Wayland by default" is top of next agenda
14:56:17 <stickster> That may wrap it up for today, then.
14:56:37 <stickster> I hope everyone who went had a fantastic GUADEC. :-) One day I hope to make it there again.
14:56:48 <mcatanzaro> It has been a good GUADEC!
14:57:27 <stickster> OK, th-th-that's all folks, see you on the list, and back here in two weeks for another exciting episode. ;-)
14:57:27 * mcatanzaro and mclasen sitting in chairs with a nice view of a placid town, unsuspecting that another GUADEC is just around the corner.
14:57:35 <stickster> lol
14:57:39 <stickster> and with that...
14:57:41 <stickster> #endmeeting