15:01:02 #startmeeting Fedora QA meeting 15:01:02 Meeting started Mon Aug 22 15:01:02 2016 UTC. The chair is adamw. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 15:01:02 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 15:01:02 The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_qa_meeting' 15:01:07 #meetingname fedora-qa 15:01:07 The meeting name has been set to 'fedora-qa' 15:01:11 #topic Roll call 15:01:12 * kparal is here 15:01:18 * sumantro is here 15:01:20 * a2batic is here 15:01:21 morning folks, who's around? 15:01:23 * brunowolff is here 15:01:26 * satellit listening 15:01:38 * satellit listening 15:02:09 morning Adamw! :) 15:02:25 * coremodule is here. 15:03:01 * cmurf made it 15:03:03 * pschindl2 is here 15:03:04 thanks for coming out everyone 15:03:12 #topic Previous meeting follow-up 15:03:19 yikes, pschindl's been upgraded 15:03:44 pschindl 2.0 15:03:52 so we have "adamw and/or coremodule to start Fedora 24 'Heroes of Fedora' posts" - coremodule, i know you were working on that, how's it going? 15:03:58 his upgrade crashed 15:04:01 heh 15:04:11 i guess he's still on preupgrade 15:04:28 The posts are completed, as of last Friday they were still pending approval. 15:05:13 Justin is shifting , so probably that's causing the delay 15:05:24 coremodule: awesome 15:05:39 coremodule: did you do all three? or just alpha? 15:05:52 Just gave it another look, they're still pending as of today. 15:06:00 Yeah, all three, alpha, beta, and final. 15:06:07 great job 15:06:14 Thanks a lot. 15:06:26 #info "adamw and/or coremodule to start Fedora 24 'Heroes of Fedora' posts" - coremodule has written these, they're waiting to be reviewed and published by an editor 15:06:57 #info "adamw to check in with satellit on live CD creation instructions next steps" - I did that, satellit's still working through the process 15:07:00 right satellit? 15:07:20 still not able to edit it.... 15:07:39 * satellit nubie 15:07:54 satellit: i'll try and help you a bit later 15:08:05 it is on the wiki 15:09:05 "sumantro to contact owners of https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Replace_UDisks2_by_Storaged for potential test day" - sumantro? you've been working on that, right? 15:09:36 Yes , I am adamw 15:09:57 got a reply and they wanna go for it as soon as we get Alpha 15:10:12 ok, sounds good 15:10:13 same with Fedora Media Writer 15:10:47 questionon whether the code signed version will be done by beta? 15:10:48 #info sumantro has been in touch and the team are positive about a test day, ticket is created: https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-qa/ticket/489 , next step: set a date and create the wiki page and tests 15:10:53 * satellit fedora media writer for win and osx? 15:10:58 cmurf: signed what? 15:11:00 or if that'll be tested post-beta 15:11:06 signed FMW for Windows and macOS 15:11:08 Win 15:11:22 we have a 'test days status' agenda item coming up 15:11:29 so we can discuss it then? we're still in follow-up atm 15:11:33 I haven't heard anything about the code signing process and infra so...guess we can ask on the test day 15:11:42 ah, or on the next item, in fact :P 15:11:58 which is "cmurf and sumantro to co-ordinate on organizing test days for Wayland-by-default, BetterSwitchableGraphicsSupport and FedoraMediaWriterAsPrimaryDownloadable" 15:12:01 so how are we going on those? 15:12:07 yeah i just mean that the question needs to be asked, not necessarily answered 15:12:13 well sumantro is doing all of the work 15:12:37 I was about to but then turned out he had done everything I was going to do already ;-) 15:12:57 everything is going fine Wayland-by-default proposal owners are yet to give me a reply 15:13:01 you have to hit him over the head and tie him up or something 15:13:43 sumantro: that's one we could probably go ahead and organize without them if necessary, but they should be responsive...you could try the desktop@ mailing list also, there's lots of discussion about the Change happening there 15:13:48 * cmurf is non-violent 15:14:10 and FedoraMediaWriterAsPrimaryDownloadable is going to be held couple of weeks after Alpha release 15:14:19 adamw sure , I will ping them up! :) 15:14:54 I suspect there is a bit of a holding pattern until Workstation WG clearly decides to go forward with Wayland by default 15:15:03 they deferred that to their next meeting which is today? Wednesday? I forget... 15:15:20 I think weds 15:15:28 #info "cmurf and sumantro to co-ordinate on organizing test days for Wayland-by-default, BetterSwitchableGraphicsSupport and FedoraMediaWriterAsPrimaryDownloadable" - these are all moving along, https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-qa/ticket/490 is for FedoraMediaWriter , still waiting for a reply from the Wayland change owners 15:15:45 what's the status on switchable graphics? 15:15:52 goooood question 15:16:19 I have no update on that , but will follow up soon! :) 15:16:22 I totally spaced that one out which is funny, mr color and all 15:16:39 alright :) 15:17:05 I'm curious to what degree wayland vs Xorg affects switchable graphics? 15:17:20 Include that in the questions for the change owner... 15:17:46 #info "adamw to draft clarifications on joining process for QA/Join page, and a new sponsorship SOP for sponsors, and send drafts to test@ for review" - I did that, and the changes are now live, the new page is https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:SOP_Sponsoring_New_Members 15:17:55 cmurf: yeah, good point 15:18:27 #info "sumantro to schedule another run of the onboarding meeting" - this ran on saturday and went great, a recording is available at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASQmkOrB_DY 15:18:41 anything to add there sumantro? 15:19:03 no, it was awesome and thanks for all the people who joined! :) 15:19:14 great :) 15:19:19 that's all for followup then, moving on 15:19:39 #topic Fedora 25 Alpha/Test Days status 15:20:01 so unfortunately alpha was delayed, largely due to compose issues 15:20:31 #info Alpha was delayed due to compose issues, next Go/No-Go meeting will be this Thursday 2016-08-25 15:20:44 we have blocker review coming up after this meeting of coursre 15:22:05 #info Alpha test coverage looks pretty good, thanks to all who have helped out with that 15:22:43 i'm *hopeful* we'll get some fixes in the compose process today (at least, we have some ideas) so if that goes well we'll be able to do a good Alpha RC today or tomorrow 15:23:06 #info we'll aim for Alpha RC compose today or tomorrow 15:23:36 hmm...it strikes me that we haven't really thought about Wayland-by-default specifically for Alpha... 15:23:55 as things stand, Wayland would be default in the Alpha, I believe 15:24:14 i'm ok with that...but does anyone know if the desktop SIG has considered it? 15:24:23 They know about it. 15:24:47 It was suggested last week by probinson that it get reverted asap, and the desktop folks were kinda reluctant to get off the fence either way. 15:25:01 So that's kinda why I pushed for a FESCo ticket to resolve the process question. Which is now answered. 15:25:11 But the WG still needs to get off the fence and decide if it's a go or not. 15:25:20 Both for release *and* for alpha. 15:25:41 well, if they're not going to decide until wednesday, that's kinda too late for alpha 15:25:47 The fact it's been enabled this whole time is part of why I'm kinda like, let's just go with it. 15:25:51 yep 15:25:53 you're right 15:25:59 i guess i'll mail the list right now and let them know that if they want it changed they need to get an FE in for it, like, now 15:26:00 so wayland by default for alpha at least 15:26:24 * satellit kde also? 15:26:30 i think wayland could pass all the alpha criteria on its own 15:26:47 if it can't, that's sorta a problem for it being quality enough for final - perhaps 15:27:03 cmurf: it went to FESCo and wayland as default on Workstation was approved, it was already enabled. Doesn't affect other DE envs 15:27:16 right 15:27:27 so I think it's fine to just leave it for alpha unless someone has a klaxon to sound 15:27:51 Firefox works great, Terminal has no problems with it... 15:28:11 that's pretty much the bulk for alpha functionality anyway 15:28:22 what could go wrong? 15:28:25 :-P 15:28:42 it's an alpha! 15:30:02 pbrobinson: there seems to have been lots of follow-up pontification about whether it's ready yet, though (as always). see desktop@ 15:30:07 I'll followup to adamw's email, I assume he's writing this very minute, asking the WG to just take an in email vote on it for alpha and defer the bigger questions for their wednesday meeting or whenever it is. 15:30:16 cmurf: yeah, just sent it. 15:30:57 ok goodness 15:31:16 alrighty 15:31:28 does anyone have other notes/concerns on F25 Alpha stuff? 15:32:26 nope it seems :) 15:32:40 ship it? 15:33:35 =) 15:33:47 so, any other thoughts on test days? or did we about cover the current status? 15:34:05 i think we're pretty well covered 15:34:45 there is one ticket for a test day proposal from another group; is someone taking care of that? https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-qa/ticket/488 (Modem support) 15:34:45 Good here. 15:34:52 adamw: most of that discussion was actually before the FESCo meeting I believe 15:34:53 ah, looks like pschindl is 15:35:04 I was on the thread :) 15:35:08 pschindl: didn't get lost in your upgrade i hope? :) 15:35:11 pbrobinson: kk 15:36:34 we're investigating a display issue on some arm devices. seems to be in userspace, but not quite sure 15:37:48 #topic Wayland status and possible requirements 15:37:54 so cmurf suggested this as a specific topic 15:38:11 you want to summarize your thoughts, cmurf? 15:38:15 #chair cmurf 15:38:15 Current chairs: adamw cmurf 15:38:48 sure 15:38:59 Basic gist is, we're in a unique situation where we kinda have to accept, temporarily, a lower quality level for the default window manager. 15:39:16 Otherwise too much stuff would block release, which isn't strictly necessary because there is a non-default fallback, Xorg, for when things are problematic for Wayland. 15:39:30 But that doesn't mean any problem can be dealt with a finger pointing to just use X. Some problems go below a minimum usability, a minimum quality. And QA does get some say in what that minimum is. So how to deal with this without it amounting to handwaving? 15:39:42 Please discuss. 15:41:07 is there any point where we *know* wayland doesn't meet the current release criteria? 15:41:11 * adamw isn't aware of any at this point 15:41:44 That's part of the issue, unknowns. 15:41:50 * satellit I run into a missing mouse cursor (in vm)? liveinst reqires return to run sometime 15:42:10 There's a pile of bugs I haven't gone through, it would not surprise me if some violate the "basica usability" whatever requirement. 15:42:24 No tablet support, no screen rotation still, etc. 15:43:03 satellit: oh yeah, we know about the missing cursor one, it's a regression (a real actual regression!) of a bug we found before...it's being worked on 15:44:02 This might turn out to be a really easy transition, but I kinda expect there to be some problems. 15:44:16 And I think we're just going to have to handle them one case at a time along with the WG. 15:44:27 cmurf: i think my instinct is more or less like yours - this is one of those points where we just have to say, ok, let's go ahead and do it ... i don't think i wanna go the way we went with graphical upgrade and say we as QA want to jump in with a list of requirements 15:44:59 it's such a big hairy thing like the systemd change that at some point you've just gotta go for it and clean up afterwards as best we can 15:45:06 just my opinion, though 15:45:09 yeah because that was a lot of work and in this case any requirements we come up with now may be obsolete in short order anyway 15:45:19 basically my thought 15:45:23 right, and i suspect it'd all get a bit out of hand and messy and bureaucratic 15:45:29 exactly 15:45:34 take a vote move forward, suck it up 15:45:49 or maybe we have to revert and suck that up also and try again next time 15:46:18 Basically my thought comes down to I trust the collective subjectivity of the WG and QA folks *shrug* 15:46:18 right, basically i'd say we should just let fesco and the WG decide whether we actually go with Wayland or Xorg, and then we'll just work out whatever issues ensue one at a time via the blocker process 15:46:43 satellit: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1200901 is the cursor bug, btw 15:46:52 k 15:46:54 bingo 15:47:08 I'd say if there are serious issues with wayland and we have to sacrifice our requirements a lot, just defer to fesco 15:47:21 yeah 15:47:48 I think the WG wants a quality release, I doubt they'd want to move forward if QA drew a line in the sand on a particular deficiency that gets discovered. 15:48:01 But yes, I do not mean to indicate at all that QA should not have the ability to draw a line in the sand. 15:48:05 That's actually my point. 15:48:17 Well, that's what the blocker process is. 15:48:20 I just don't think we can say in advance what that line is, without a LOT of work and imagination. 15:48:34 That's already a list of lines in the sand. (Arguably even lines set into the concrete) 15:48:45 s/process/criteria/ 15:49:08 so, anyone disagree? or have anything else to bring into the discussion before we move on? 15:49:27 /me reiterates his stance of "we have to take this hit eventually; why not now?" 15:49:40 I'm going with the idea that the criteria don't exactly apply to Wayland, I'm personally willing to accept some lower quality standard because Xorg is a fallback for those use cases. 15:50:05 It's just that when it's "too bad" is a subjective call, and I think that is OK and not to be avoided. 15:50:05 * satellit +1 15:50:30 okey dokey 15:50:37 #topic Onboarding meeting retrospective 15:50:43 wayland will never advance but i still think its not mature enough 15:50:52 so we ran the onboarding meeting again saturday, and by 'we' i mean 'sumantro' :) 15:51:00 wayland will never advance if we dont push itbut i still think its not mature enough 15:51:01 sumantro, how'd everything go? 15:51:20 Just got a reply from mcatanzaro the WG wants Wayland enabled for alpha. 15:51:24 cmurf: great. 15:52:02 everything was great , we a smooth onbaording session ! :) I propose we do it when we have about 10 to 12 new members joining! 15:52:46 fwiw i did take a brief look at the F/OSS video conference software SUSE uses - https://github.com/jangouts/jangouts - but it looks like it needs a bit of setup at least 15:53:28 adamw I have look at it . 15:53:29 (jangouts itself really just needs a static webpage, but the 'janus gateway' needs to be set up, i believe) 15:54:15 yes janus gateway needs to be set up! 15:54:25 so aside from sumantro, anyone else here attend the meeting? 15:54:53 once again that recording link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASQmkOrB_DY 15:57:10 #info onboarding meeting went fine, sumantro is ready to run again whenever we have ~10 new members 15:57:18 #topic Open floor 15:57:24 so, any other business? that'll fit into 2 minutes? 15:57:33 FYI win32diskimager.exe writes functional live f25 USB's in windows 10 15:58:13 thanks 15:58:50 of course we have blocker review right after this, in #fedora-blocker-review 15:59:01 so thanks everyone for coming, and i'll see you there in a minute :) 15:59:03 * adamw sets the fuse 16:00:11 thanks everyone! 16:00:12 #endmeeting