18:02:58 <mattdm> #startmeeting Council (2016-12-12)
18:02:58 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Dec 12 18:02:58 2016 UTC.  The chair is mattdm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:02:58 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:02:58 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council_(2016-12-12)'
18:03:00 <mattdm> #meetingname council
18:03:00 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council'
18:03:02 <mattdm> #chair mattdm jkurik jwb cwickert langdon robyduck tatica bexelbie
18:03:02 <zodbot> Current chairs: bexelbie cwickert jkurik jwb langdon mattdm robyduck tatica
18:03:04 <mattdm> #topic Introductions, Welcomes
18:03:10 <mattdm> hi everyone
18:03:11 <bexelbie> .hello bex
18:03:12 <zodbot> bexelbie: bex 'Brian (bex) Exelbierd' <bex@pobox.com>
18:03:16 <bexelbie> hola
18:03:59 <jwb> Sort of here
18:04:04 <langdon> .hello langdon
18:04:06 <zodbot> langdon: langdon 'Langdon White' <langdon@fishjump.com>
18:04:32 <mattdm> I think after the election we should search for another time so that at minimum jwb can join fully
18:05:21 <mattdm> #topic Open Floor
18:05:36 <jwb> An hour later would be fine.  Maybe even 30 min
18:05:55 <mattdm> Today is an open floor meeting. I've still been digging out of email from being at LISA last week...
18:06:14 <mattdm> ... so I'm not really on top of what's going on :)
18:06:16 <robyduck> .hello robyduck
18:06:17 <zodbot> robyduck: robyduck 'Robert Mayr' <robyduck@gmail.com>
18:06:21 <mattdm> hey robyduck!
18:06:32 <robyduck> heya, sorry I'm late
18:06:35 <mattdm> I saw jkurik gave an election update — we have a lot of candidates
18:07:02 <mattdm> What topics would people like to talk about today?
18:08:01 <mattdm> (hold on kid thing afk for a few minutes)
18:09:50 * bexelbie has no open floor topics I can think of atm
18:10:53 <robyduck> bexelbie: do you have (or did I miss) an update of the FAmSCo elections? Seemed to me people wnated to go for a full election
18:10:54 <mattdm> okay back. turns out these creatures need to eat. who knew?
18:11:02 <bexelbie> don't feed them
18:11:07 <bexelbie> keeps them small and more manageable
18:11:18 <langdon> no water after midnight either, right?
18:11:22 <mattdm> they get very cranky, though
18:11:32 <mattdm> bexelbie: yeah, want to summarize what's up with famsco?
18:11:34 * robyduck is happy these things don't happen just to him :)
18:11:48 <bexelbie> ok, not much more to add from last week, but yeah
18:12:08 <bexelbie> any other topics, or should I start?
18:13:43 <mattdm> bexelbie: let's just start and then switch as we come up with things
18:13:47 <mattdm> because, hey, open floor!
18:13:52 <bexelbie> FAmSCo is expecting some of us this week.  They had a slightly contentious meeting last week which finally authorized new elections.
18:14:19 <bexelbie> They didn't have any new thoughts on FOSCo though the idea of a minimal charge to get it started it seeing to be more acceptable, though not desired by all parties
18:14:41 <bexelbie> I am starting to wonder if we shouldn't let FAmSCo rebuild for a bit and shelve FOSCo while we think through
18:14:55 <bexelbie> the whole user and contributor recruitment process in terms of marketing and objectives
18:15:01 <bexelbie> but that last bit is mho
18:15:04 <bexelbie> so no real news
18:15:05 <mattdm> bexelbie: I'm okay with that.
18:15:34 <mattdm> bexelbie: want to turn your opinion into a proposal?
18:15:41 <bexelbie> I figure we will talk next Monday as a group after the meeting this wednesday
18:15:43 <langdon> mattdm, okay with which?
18:15:56 <bexelbie> I am loathe to vote for that before we talk to FAmSCo ... since we said we would
18:16:01 <bexelbie> s/vote/do/
18:16:04 <robyduck> yeah let's see what the meeting brings
18:16:23 <mattdm> langdon: let rebuild, and put fosco in bigger context
18:16:30 <mattdm> bexelbie: for the #info, when is that famsco meeting?
18:16:49 <bexelbie> calculating GMT :)
18:17:27 <bexelbie> #info FAMSCO Meeting on 14 Dec at 1400 in #fedora-meeting-2
18:18:22 <langdon> this one: https://apps.fedoraproject.org/calendar/ambassadors/#m3893 ??
18:18:29 * mattdm calculates that back to local time
18:18:37 <bexelbie> yes
18:18:38 <bexelbie> #info https://apps.fedoraproject.org/calendar/ambassadors/#m3893
18:18:40 <bexelbie> :D
18:18:58 <langdon> mattdm.. it is 1 day and 19h and 41m from now..
18:19:05 <langdon> cause that is HELPFUL!
18:19:32 <mattdm> if you log into fedocal it gives you local times
18:19:54 <mattdm> except it might be confused about DST
18:19:57 <mattdm> nice
18:20:33 <mattdm> anyway, yeah, I'm planning on being there
18:20:38 <mattdm> so we'll see where that goes.
18:20:46 <mattdm> bexelbie, while you're on the floor, any budget updates?
18:21:12 <bexelbie> nothing for public (read non-bex) consumption
18:21:13 <bexelbie> BUT!
18:21:28 <bexelbie> I have a report for public usage that balances with the data I have from RH
18:21:36 <bexelbie> now I need to fill in the parts I know are missing and talk to the regions
18:21:40 <mattdm> WHOO BALANCE
18:21:51 <bexelbie> My hope is to have something prelim by the end of next week, pending regional conversations
18:22:06 <bexelbie> I am going to finally be able to shop this idea to the regional card holders/treasures
18:22:16 <bexelbie> also in a fit of insmonia I think I see a way forward for storytellers
18:22:30 <bexelbie> which means .. I've got writing to do to see if people liek my idears
18:22:34 <bexelbie> s/liek/like/
18:23:04 <mattdm> cool
18:23:19 <langdon> umm.. fedora volunteers are NOT meant to tell you bedtime stories to help you sleep
18:23:35 <langdon> ;)
18:23:44 <bexelbie> actually changing the name is part of it :)
18:24:04 <mattdm> bexelbie: from "storytelling"?
18:24:05 <langdon> insomnia -> storytellers.. couldn't resist
18:24:19 <bexelbie> +1
18:24:32 <mattdm> storytelling *is* a perfectly cromulent marketing buzzword
18:24:46 <bexelbie> yes
18:24:59 <bexelbie> actually do we want to talk a bit (in a spitbally way) about marketing and objectives?
18:25:10 <mattdm> yes :)
18:25:34 <mattdm> I have, fairly high on the list of things that are noodling around in the back of my brain, an item which says
18:25:44 <bexelbie> Basically, I believe we, as the council, need to take an active role in defining some objectives for the Project.  Obvs we should develop them in concert with folks not via fiat.
18:25:45 <mattdm> Rewrite the Fedora Objectives Wiki Page
18:25:57 <mattdm> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives
18:26:04 <bexelbie> These objectives, however, will definitely help groups like marketing and FAmSCo figure out if they are on message (ugh) or not.
18:26:22 <bexelbie> This needs to include things like defining non-technical goals like target markets
18:26:23 <mattdm> I would like to do a logic model diagram for Fedora Project overall
18:26:26 <bexelbie> and growth objectives
18:26:31 <bexelbie> +1 to logic diagram
18:26:36 * langdon notes "on message" better than "on fleek"
18:26:49 <mattdm> langdon: dubious. citation needed.
18:26:55 <langdon> :)
18:27:08 * langdon will send pic of my eyebrows
18:27:15 <bexelbie> I believe if we can figure out where we are "sailing" to, we can help the subprojects get there
18:27:29 <langdon> year of the linux desktop?!?!
18:27:37 <mattdm> I had really hoped that we'd have more people coming to us with Fedora Objectives
18:28:00 <langdon> we haven't done a call for them in a while..
18:28:06 <mattdm> which are meant to be the 12-18 month waypoints rather than the distant and glorious horizon
18:28:15 <langdon> also .. the Council Fireside Chat blog posts may help
18:28:28 <bexelbie> I think we really need to define targets to help people generate objectives
18:28:37 <bexelbie> If we want X then we have objective Y to get it
18:28:47 <bexelbie> and we are fresh out of Xs and Ys
18:28:47 <mattdm> bexelbie++
18:28:54 <langdon> really?
18:28:58 <langdon> what about the Fs ?
18:29:19 <langdon> or do you mean "hard targets"?  /me notes his sense of humor severly broken today
18:29:37 <langdon> but.. not a joke
18:29:38 <mattdm> The Fs are principles of _how_ rather than of what or where
18:29:50 <bexelbie> I mean things like are we targeting developers then we need to figure out what that means
18:29:57 <bexelbie> but if we are targeting students we want to do something different
18:30:02 <langdon> well.. we had that mission/strategy thing we did a while back, right?
18:30:25 <mattdm> It's been about seven years since the current mission statement was adopted
18:30:25 <langdon> devs and students would be objectives.. i thought you meant "why devs/students"
18:30:28 <mattdm> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Overview?rd=Mission
18:30:53 * langdon may be conflating some of the server-wg logic model/prd work with council work :/
18:31:17 <mattdm> we also have a vision, here https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Vision_statement
18:31:24 <langdon> last i knew devs were an objective.. don't recall if students are
18:31:41 <bexelbie> langdon, I can see that.  I see devs and students as targets and objectives as how to get them
18:32:05 <bexelbie> we want devs so we add more compiler magic and we go to dev conferences to talk to them about it
18:32:15 <bexelbie> we want students so we add more homework trackers and go to universities
18:32:18 <bexelbie> kind of a thing
18:32:19 <langdon> or .. maybe thats why the devs objective is not making a lot of traction.. it is too much "why" and not enough "action"?
18:32:20 <mattdm> some of the stuff like "Building open source software communities" and "Developing the science and practice of building communities" on the older Objectives page are...
18:32:23 <bexelbie> those crappy ideas are not for production
18:32:26 <langdon> and hubs was in there somewhere too
18:32:32 <mattdm> ... not so in line with our actual activities and outputs
18:32:57 <bexelbie> mattdm, some of those are pretty lofty too need a lot of definition (which they may have .. need to reread)
18:33:11 <langdon> didn't mo suggest hubs as an obj? or am i just crazy?
18:33:26 <mattdm> langdon: I think talked about. That's definitely a good one.
18:33:40 <mattdm> (in the smaller sense)
18:34:19 <bexelbie> I'd love to see hubs (which I also need to do more reading on) tied into larger goals and objectives too - I don't want it to be a means to an end (and I don't think it is)
18:34:43 <robyduck> no it is not, it's an important starting point
18:34:44 <bexelbie> s/means to an end/solely a means to an end/
18:35:07 <bexelbie> I know they are trying to figure out who their audience is
18:35:16 <bexelbie> our targets should help answer that
18:35:43 <robyduck> but we should definitely try to come out with something hub related, even a first version, and then adding stuff, IMHO
18:37:00 <langdon> robyduck, +1 .. release early and often.. (like voting!) perfect enemy of the good and all that
18:37:15 <mattdm> Although in theory, one starts at the right side of the logic model (vision and mission) and plans back to the left..
18:37:25 <mattdm> ... I often find it helpful to iterate back and forth across
18:37:30 <robyduck> langdon: yeah, correct
18:38:02 <mattdm> It might be good for us to look at the _outcomes_ we want, the outputs we currently have...
18:38:10 <mattdm> and see what alignment they have...
18:38:23 <mattdm> and then regenerate the mission and vision statement in a more connected way
18:39:11 <mattdm> as I've said to a number of people, if, in 2017, I were to start with the vision statement and set out to accomplish that...
18:39:23 <mattdm> ... creating a linux distro would not be anywhere on my mind.
18:39:35 <mattdm> But, I'm here because I love creating a linux distro :)
18:39:37 <bexelbie> Do we need a council FAD?
18:39:57 <mattdm> bexelbie: I'm kind of thinking yes.
18:40:02 * langdon been saying for a while that the council is a fad..
18:40:13 <langdon> and this whole distro thing..
18:40:26 <langdon> maybe the internet
18:40:33 <mattdm> (this reminds me: "redo our events structure" is a good Objective too.)
18:40:44 <bexelbie> If we are serious about a FAD - Jan/Feb may be great as I think we have some budget leftover (haha handwaving numbers)
18:40:48 <langdon> mattdm, events structure?
18:40:54 <bexelbie> mattdm, yes - I have some ideas there too
18:40:56 <mattdm> langdon: flock, fudcons, fads
18:40:59 <langdon> i think a fad would be good too..
18:41:00 <bexelbie> will circulate them soon
18:41:07 <langdon> mattdm, oh .. i think i see
18:41:24 <mattdm> I will be in Brno for the few days before Devconf and then Devconf itself
18:41:28 <langdon> bexelbie, i wonder if 90% of the council will be at devconf/fosdem
18:41:35 <mattdm> But I don't think there's room for a FAD then -- too much other stuff.
18:41:49 <bexelbie> I was thinking we'd need to do US as I don't think there is room for a FAD in all the chaos of DevConf.cz/FOSDEM
18:41:56 <mattdm> yeah, that :)
18:41:58 <bexelbie> and I think all but two of us are US based
18:42:05 <bexelbie> well three
18:42:08 <bexelbie> ok, 42
18:42:13 <mattdm> and we'll see the new election :)
18:42:22 <bexelbie> only one seat, right?
18:42:26 <bexelbie> who is up for re-election?
18:42:30 <langdon> correct..
18:42:33 * bexelbie is horribly informed
18:42:39 <mattdm> bexelbie: yeah. robyduck :)
18:42:44 <langdon> robyduck i believe
18:42:50 <mattdm> who for the record I endorse and am voting for again. thanks robyduck :)
18:42:58 <langdon> although.. jwb maybe depending on fesco, right?
18:43:09 <bexelbie> well as soon as the results are in, let's see if we can get a FAD on the books, I think
18:43:15 <mattdm> jwb: may be Out, you mean?
18:43:32 <langdon> well.. he is an appt from fesco.. and isn't his seat on fesco up?
18:43:34 <mattdm> although theoretically jwb might be not on FESCo yet still picked as engineering rep
18:43:45 <langdon> mattdm, ahh right..
18:43:46 <mattdm> oh, and new FAmSCo should pick replacement for cwickert.
18:43:56 <langdon> i thought it was fesco member not "eng member"
18:44:00 <langdon> yes!
18:44:04 <jwb> i'm not up for reelection
18:44:06 <mattdm> eng member picked by fesco
18:44:14 <langdon> jwb, well.. that makes it moot then :)
18:44:20 <mattdm> jwb apparently langdon is voting you out *anyway*
18:44:21 <langdon> ohh.. you were last time, right?
18:44:26 <langdon> mattdm, :)
18:44:30 <jwb> langdon: correct
18:44:33 <langdon> for the record ...
18:44:34 <langdon> jwb++
18:44:35 <zodbot> langdon: Karma for jwboyer changed to 1 (for the f25 release cycle):  https://badges.fedoraproject.org/tags/cookie/any
18:44:44 <jwb> mmmm cookies
18:44:51 <jwb> i'll be at devconf fwiw
18:45:05 <mattdm> robyduck: will you be at devconf too?
18:46:12 <langdon> as i think about it.. im inclined to agree w/ bexelbie and mattdm that we should not try to conflate the fad with devconf.. but i am not sure we need to wait til post elections
18:46:37 <bexelbie> langdon, aren't elections over in the first week of Jan? or did I misread that
18:46:39 <langdon> although.. the march or whatever i have in my head may be wrong
18:46:54 <langdon> bexelbie, just campaign period
18:47:06 <bexelbie> reading, more than a life skill I guess
18:47:07 * langdon digs as jkurik not here today
18:47:18 <bexelbie> in that case, I suspect you're right and we should just find a nice date and get it planned
18:47:40 <langdon> ohh.. nvm.. jan. 17 announced
18:47:42 * robyduck back, reading
18:47:53 <langdon> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Elections#Elections_Schedule
18:48:04 <mattdm> bexelbie: I guess we would want hotels to be in this FY too, not just airfare
18:48:15 <bexelbie> mattdm, ideally, I think
18:48:21 <bexelbie> I'll know more hopefully by the end of next week
18:48:29 * langdon proposes bermuda.. closer for the europeans...
18:48:37 <robyduck> mattdm: not sure, it's in a bad period for me, but I want to go, never been there and it's one of the most interesting conferences
18:49:46 <mattdm> langdon: I was going to suggest boston for convenience, but I like your suggestion better
18:50:08 <langdon> mattdm, its like a 2h flight.. direct.. thats easier than getting to westford
18:50:19 <bexelbie> I was thinking Boston or Majorka (sp?)
18:50:36 <mattdm> langdon: lol sad but true
18:51:17 <langdon> bexelbie, i have been to bermuda and boston.. so i vote for majorka.. irrelevant of the spelling
18:51:30 * bexelbie hasn't been to Bermuda
18:51:39 <bexelbie> I got mugged in JP near Boston - does that count?
18:51:53 <langdon> JP *is* boston.. so yep!
18:52:14 * bexelbie spent a summer there working once
18:52:20 <bexelbie> well and getting mugged :P
18:52:36 * langdon notes jamaica plain, roxbury, dorchester, south boston, mattapan, allston, brighton are all just neighborhoods of boston..
18:52:50 <mattdm> bexelbie: given that the election ends so late, do we just want to budget "one mystery airfare"
18:53:04 <mattdm> langdon: allston is a neighborhood of *brighton*. nesting-doll style
18:53:32 <langdon> mattdm, allston is a student ghetto.. not worthy the name of "neighborhood"
18:53:47 <bexelbie> mattdm, yep
18:54:01 <bexelbie> Are we thinking 3 days mid-week?
18:54:22 <mattdm> bexelbie: not sure what's easier for our non-RH council members
18:54:24 <langdon> bexelbie, apparently it is majorca .. but i spelled it with a k normally too
18:54:44 <mattdm> Oh! Also, I will be in Arizona from the 19th to 26th of February. So, not then.
18:54:47 * bexelbie hasn't been to the Westford - can we get non-RH people in to a meeting room there?
18:54:49 <mattdm> Airfare booked and everyhting.
18:54:56 <langdon> bexelbie, yes
18:54:56 <mattdm> bexelbie: yes, we could
18:55:07 <bexelbie> cool
18:55:08 <mattdm> but we don't want to. westford is awful
18:55:12 <langdon> or we could get somewhere off site..
18:55:17 <bexelbie> offsite it is
18:55:24 <langdon> like ask around and borrow some school conf room
18:55:25 <bexelbie> mattdm, langdon can you all take point on identifying sites?
18:55:47 <langdon> or i could ask friends for a spot in their offices? we are talking like < 8 people right?
18:56:09 <mattdm> langdon++ a
18:56:13 <mattdm> yah
18:56:16 <mattdm> do that
18:56:30 <langdon> is it "open"? like could anyone interested come? like do we need spill over space?
18:56:44 <langdon> or we could handle that with video confing
18:57:06 <mattdm> video conferencing for the record sounds good -- council in place
18:57:07 <robyduck> langdon: it is Mallorca
18:57:29 <bexelbie> I suspect we won't need much spill over space - unless we wanted to have an open day
18:57:35 <bexelbie> but video conf would be useful
18:57:35 <langdon> robyduck, really? that spanish makes my head hurt..
18:57:47 <robyduck> haha
18:57:48 <bexelbie> it is supposed to be very nice and affordable
18:58:35 <langdon> bexelbie, i have heard that too
18:58:42 <mattdm> so, langdon find some space somewhere and available times?
18:58:57 <langdon> mattdm, weekday? or weekend?
18:59:15 <langdon> i guess i was originally thinking weekend.. which "friend's office" will be more likely to work
18:59:46 <mattdm> I suspect weekend works better for including non-RH people.
18:59:56 <mattdm> probably cheaper for hotels too
19:00:10 <bexelbie> don't forget about EU flight times for any non-RH non-US based members
19:00:14 <langdon> mattdm, i bet that will be mostly a wash
19:00:17 <robyduck> not sure aboout hotels, but yes
19:00:47 <mattdm> langdon: was looking at Marriot in cambridge for comparison and it's $150 on the weekend and $300 during the week
19:00:57 <langdon> mattdm, wow! crazy
19:01:07 <mattdm> yeah I guess they have a lot of business travel
19:01:22 <mattdm> it's probably different when there's MIT parent-related stuff
19:01:33 * mattdm looks at clock
19:01:38 <mattdm> anything else  we want to get in here?
19:02:07 * robyduck will comment on the tracking GUI ticket, but nothing from me
19:02:08 <langdon> $450 boston->mallorca if i go mid feb..
19:02:36 <bexelbie> +1 .. though a trip to the US would be good for me
19:02:54 <mattdm> langdon: hmmmmmmmmmm
19:03:11 <langdon> bexelbie, i like work trips to boston too.. nice to work in a city and all that.. you know.. not westford
19:03:32 <mattdm> ok, so wrapping up meeting now :)
19:03:47 <bexelbie> Boston works well too
19:03:50 <bexelbie> no muggings please :P
19:03:53 <bexelbie> sorry dead horse
19:03:55 <langdon> bexelbie, ha..
19:03:59 <bexelbie> and really not that horrifying of an experience
19:04:02 <langdon> we wont go to JP
19:04:04 <bexelbie> +1 to close
19:04:30 <langdon> ill take you to the mexican place in winter hill.. and you can see a real boston rough neighborhood ;)
19:04:32 <mattdm> +1 to JP for nice, civilized muggings.
19:04:38 <mattdm> #endmeeting