18:00:35 <mattdm> #startmeeting Council (2016-12-19)
18:00:35 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Dec 19 18:00:35 2016 UTC.  The chair is mattdm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:00:35 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:00:35 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council_(2016-12-19)'
18:00:38 <mattdm> #meetingname council
18:00:38 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'council'
18:00:40 <mattdm> #chair mattdm jkurik jwb cwickert langdon robyduck tatica bexelbie
18:00:40 <zodbot> Current chairs: bexelbie cwickert jkurik jwb langdon mattdm robyduck tatica
18:00:42 <mattdm> #topic Introductions, Welcomes
18:00:44 <mattdm> hi everyone
18:00:53 <jkurik> .hello jkurik
18:00:54 <zodbot> jkurik: jkurik 'Jan Kurik' <jkurik@redhat.com>
18:01:01 <robyduck> .hello robyduck
18:01:02 <zodbot> robyduck: robyduck 'Robert Mayr' <robyduck@gmail.com>
18:01:33 <mattdm> jkurik isn't pretty much everyone in the cz off for holidays by now?
18:01:34 <robyduck> hi all
18:01:42 <mattdm> hey robyduck!
18:01:59 <jkurik> mattdm: well, not many people were in the office today
18:02:37 <bexelbie> .hello bex
18:02:38 <zodbot> bexelbie: bex 'Brian (bex) Exelbierd' <bex@pobox.com>
18:02:41 <mattdm> bexelbie and langdon said they'd be around on the mailing list...
18:02:46 <bexelbie> jkurik, I was WFH, but will be in tomorrow
18:02:48 <mattdm> oh hi bexelbie :)
18:02:48 <bexelbie> :)
18:03:18 * mattdm will wait a bit for langdon.
18:04:16 * mattdm twiddles thumbs
18:05:01 <mattdm> okay, moving on :)
18:05:04 <mattdm> #topic Agenda
18:05:16 <mattdm> I threw together this, looking at the current open tickets:
18:05:21 <mattdm> - websites and info stuff (council and generally for Fedora)
18:05:24 <mattdm> - budget stuff if brian wants to go into it :)
18:05:26 <mattdm> - counting GUI upgrades
18:05:28 <mattdm> - fixed election dates?
18:05:30 <mattdm> - firefox privacy issue
18:05:42 <mattdm> and to this -- maybe first -- I think we should add: how to select outreach rep replacement for outgoing cwickert
18:06:05 <mattdm> anyone have anything to add (or subtract)?
18:06:33 <bexelbie> I need to send my fudcon/flock email - unless we should start the debate here
18:06:34 <jkurik> I will have one question for open floor then :)
18:06:52 <mattdm> jkurik: want to add that question now so we can at least start thinking about it? :)
18:07:10 <bexelbie> forewarned is forethought :)
18:07:11 <jkurik> I will wait for the OF
18:07:17 <mattdm> jkurik: ominous :)
18:07:23 <mattdm> Okay, here we go
18:07:24 <bexelbie> ominous++
18:07:34 <robyduck> much stuff, let's start then
18:07:38 <mattdm> #topic Selecting a new Outreach Representative
18:07:54 <bexelbie> that wasn't in your list ...
18:08:06 <mattdm> #info cwickert has stepped down from the council (thank you very much for your help, Christoph)
18:08:08 <bexelbie> oh wait, now I see it
18:08:18 <mattdm> bexelbie: I sneakily didn't put a - in front of it
18:08:20 <mattdm> sorry :)
18:09:09 <mattdm> #info FAmSCo looks on track to approve statement from last meeting (keeping famsco focused on ambassadors, kicking fosco back to us)
18:09:11 <bexelbie> How was this communicated to us?
18:09:12 * robyduck proposes to add this as first topic for the upcoming FAmSCo
18:09:18 * bexelbie doesn't see email on this
18:09:25 <mattdm> bexelbie: at a meeting a long time ago
18:09:31 <bexelbie> ahh
18:09:55 <bexelbie> Are we sure FAmSCo is the right place for this rep?
18:09:55 <mattdm> #info the Council docs http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Council#Appointed_Leadership_Positions say the Outreach Rep is appointed by FAmSCo...
18:10:12 <robyduck> bexelbie: last FAmSCo appointed him
18:10:12 <bexelbie> As ground work is only part of the work
18:10:17 <mattdm> #info ... but that was really just as a placeholder because at the time it was expected that FOSCo was imminent
18:10:22 <robyduck> bexelbie: right place would be FOSCo (again)
18:10:49 <mattdm> #info so the question *now* is: what's the thing to do in the continuing interim?
18:11:15 <bexelbie> Perhaps we should directly appoint someone to help shepherd in a new vision? Assuming FAmSCo moves forward with internal work this would let them be focused on that
18:11:21 <bexelbie> or we could ask another group to select
18:11:24 * mattdm briefly done typing to listen to ideas
18:11:39 <bexelbie> or we could leave the position empty until we figure out FOSCo assuming it is about to come back here
18:11:42 <bexelbie> just ideas
18:11:46 <mattdm> bexelbie++
18:11:53 <mattdm> yeah those are the three basic things I thought of too.
18:11:56 <robyduck> the latter one works for me
18:12:20 <bexelbie> +1 to leaving position empty until we resolve FOSCo (assuming that is the one you meant robyduck )
18:12:26 <mattdm> For #1, would the plan be for this to be a specifically create-fosco-focused role?
18:12:46 <mattdm> in that case, if we find someone with the appropriate enthusiasm and time, we could create an Objective around that
18:12:54 <mattdm> (which I think might be better0.
18:13:11 <robyduck> bexelbie: yeah, that's the one I like more
18:13:29 <mattdm> For #2 (ask another group) we could pick another group in the broad umbrella (marketing, support, ambassadors, design, docs)
18:13:46 <mattdm> or we could ask all of those groups to form a temporary nominating committee
18:13:58 <mattdm> or, we could just leave the seat open
18:14:03 <mattdm> :)
18:14:11 <mattdm> if we do that, I'd like to put a time limit on it
18:14:18 <robyduck> mattdm: long tem I'm clearly for #1
18:14:25 <robyduck> term even
18:14:25 <mattdm> because I don't want to permanently lose the seat from the council
18:14:52 <bexelbie> I suggest we leave it open and push to get the council FAD scheduled ASAP to think this through
18:15:31 <mattdm> Proposal: We will leave this seat open for now, pending council FAD and formation of FOSCo (in whatever form or name), but re-evaluate at next Council elections
18:15:59 <robyduck> +1
18:16:08 <mattdm> +1 to self
18:16:41 <jkurik> +1
18:17:15 <mattdm> Even though we don't have the full council here, I'm going to go ahead and count this as approved, because it's not something where the consequences are irreversable -- other council members can weigh in if they disagree and we can revisit
18:17:20 <bexelbie> +1
18:17:29 <mattdm> #approved We will leave this seat open for now, pending council FAD and formation of FOSCo (in whatever form or name), but re-evaluate at next Council elections
18:17:45 <mattdm> #topic websites and info stuff
18:18:03 <mattdm> https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/82
18:18:07 <mattdm> https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/81
18:18:30 <mattdm> this is really a "do we need these tickets open still" question
18:18:42 <mattdm> bexelbie I know you are working on updating the budget site
18:18:42 * bexelbie is reading
18:18:56 <mattdm> oh wait that other one is for a mailing list
18:19:01 <mattdm> well, I'm lumping it in here too :)
18:19:02 <robyduck> didn't we find a solution there?
18:19:05 <bexelbie> with #81 was hoping for your reply mattdm  :)
18:19:18 <bexelbie> it sounded like consensus was a list is fine public is fine
18:19:58 <robyduck> yeah
18:20:04 <mattdm> bexelbie: anything except just the bare-word "budget@". "fedora-budget@", "community-budget@", whatever
18:20:20 <bexelbie> ok
18:20:40 <bexelbie> fedora-budget@ works for me
18:21:04 <mattdm> marking approved :)
18:21:17 <bexelbie> ok, will open an infra ticket per robyduck's suggestion
18:21:21 <mattdm> did we come to a basic consensus on the info site?
18:21:39 <mattdm> 'docs all the things', right?
18:22:08 <robyduck> yess
18:22:33 <robyduck> at least I understood it like that
18:22:40 <mattdm> ok. do we need this ticket still for anything?
18:22:45 <bexelbie> I don't think we do
18:22:58 <bexelbie> I need to find out about some infra stuff - but that isn't a council issue
18:23:27 <mattdm> ok. closing as no council action needed
18:23:47 <mattdm> #topic FY17 and F18 budget stuff
18:23:55 <mattdm> #info ... if bexelbie has anything to report :)
18:24:37 <bexelbie> so, I can try
18:24:38 <bexelbie> :)
18:25:06 <bexelbie> 1. I plan to email the regional card holders and treasurers as well as the ambassador groups to get a better estimate of their expected spending through the end of hte FY
18:25:25 <bexelbie> I want to make sure we aren't going to have a money crunch (unlikely I think)
18:25:40 <bexelbie> I also want to see if we can reallocate some money for good ideas if we have some extra (likely I think)
18:25:59 <bexelbie> I also want to see if we can make sure that as many expenses as possible from pre-Feb 28 land in FY17 and not in FY18
18:26:02 <bexelbie> so they won't eat FY18 budget
18:26:22 <mattdm> *nod*
18:26:22 <bexelbie> I have been doing some retrospective accounting work and we have a a number of charges that crept forward this year
18:26:44 <mattdm> and on that note, should we buy airfare for the FAD?
18:26:56 <langdon> arggh.. i had it stuck in my head that this was canceled.. and i was at the grocery store
18:26:58 <langdon> .hello langdon
18:26:59 <zodbot> langdon: langdon 'Langdon White' <langdon@fishjump.com>
18:27:06 <mattdm> langdon: no you uncanceled it :)
18:27:09 <bexelbie> mattdm, yes - but wait until I send the FAD email
18:27:14 <mattdm> bexelbie: ok. :)
18:27:15 <bexelbie> as I want to confirm funds first
18:27:16 <bexelbie> please
18:27:16 <langdon> ha
18:27:18 <bexelbie> as a part of that, I have some basic accounting numbers.  I have not yet met with APAC (their treasurer/card holder was gone for several months and hasn't responded with a meeting time)
18:27:27 <bexelbie> so I don't know how accurate APAC really is
18:27:36 <bexelbie> I know that EMEA is probably wrong - i just haven't figured out how yet
18:27:41 <bexelbie> the rest are probably mostly right
18:28:26 <bexelbie> the bottom line is that we are under spent by about $22K
18:28:31 <mattdm> well at least they are known unknowns :)
18:28:39 <bexelbie> before outreachy of 6.5K which I just got confirmed
18:28:55 <bexelbie> and any other spend by regions
18:28:59 <bexelbie> the balance of the diversity FAD
18:29:03 <bexelbie> and anything the council fad drags in
18:29:14 <mattdm> so, council fad on the Mediterranean after all!
18:29:17 <bexelbie> plus anything pending from November/December that isn't resolved
18:29:24 <bexelbie> I mean $23K - type
18:29:25 <bexelbie> typo
18:29:29 <bexelbie> typo of typo - nice
18:30:00 <bexelbie> any questions I can try to answer?
18:30:01 <mattdm> Do we have a plan for the rest of the excess?
18:30:04 <bexelbie> or Matrix style dodge?
18:30:14 <bexelbie> I don't have a good feel for how much is truly extra
18:30:20 <bexelbie> but council fad is part of it
18:30:29 <mattdm> bexelbie: ok. we should wait on that before spending our chickens
18:30:38 <bexelbie> I think so
18:30:42 <bexelbie> I may have a back-up plan
18:30:43 <bexelbie> but yeah
18:30:54 <bexelbie> one thing I hope to do in Jan is bring forward a realignment proposal
18:31:00 <bexelbie> because technically all the money is allocated
18:31:03 <bexelbie> and we need to reallocate it
18:31:13 <mattdm> bexelbie++
18:31:14 <bexelbie> for example, I bleieve Flock overspent by 7K - that has to come from somewhere
18:31:21 <mattdm> yes.
18:31:23 <bexelbie> sorry 6.2K
18:31:56 <mattdm> thanks bexelbie. anything else?
18:32:03 <bexelbie> The fudcons are mixed
18:32:08 <mattdm> any action you need from anyone else other than the regional cardholders?
18:32:20 <bexelbie> APAC underspent by about 3.3 K ... LATAM overspent by about 2.2 K
18:32:40 <bexelbie> FADs is also over budget
18:32:59 <bexelbie> If anyone thinks they are authorized to spend money between now and forever - they should tell me
18:33:10 <bexelbie> assuming they don't report in through an Ambassador Region
18:33:36 <mattdm> is that "because they have another think coming?"
18:33:47 <bexelbie> unless it is in my budget - yeah :)
18:33:53 <bexelbie> I'd need to see where it was authorized
18:33:55 <bexelbie> and stuff
18:34:01 <bexelbie> we are going to need to not have surprises
18:34:13 <bexelbie> especially if we continue with the (imho bad) practice of preallocating all $$
18:34:29 <mattdm> #info all spending needs to either to through the ambassador regions or be approved by council (and specifically bexelbie)
18:34:30 <bexelbie> For FY2018 I have been given no indication of what our budget will look like yet
18:34:49 <mattdm> bexelbie: If past years are any indicatation we will not really know until we are *in* that year
18:34:55 <bexelbie> I suspect so
18:35:16 <bexelbie> I believe the council should cautiously allocate some Q1 money in late Jan so the regions can plan and not be in limbo
18:35:43 <mattdm> sounds reasonable.
18:35:44 <bexelbie> I also believe we need to get better about regional reporting
18:36:03 <bexelbie> if my numbers are right one of the regions has spent less than 60% of their budget so far
18:36:07 <mattdm> yes. I hope you have a plan for that :)
18:36:23 <bexelbie> I do.  Mattdm will be presenting quarterly reports ;P
18:36:40 <bexelbie> actually if I get my dream - numbers won't be the hard part
18:36:44 <bexelbie> the discussion will be
18:36:47 <bexelbie> and that is what should be "hard"
18:37:00 <mattdm> yeah
18:37:03 <bexelbie> I can schedule a demo call for the council of the numbers in early Jan if people want
18:37:13 <bexelbie> I am not ready to post them until all of the regions have been as validated as possible
18:37:21 <bexelbie> I don't want bad data to poison minds
18:38:13 <mattdm> that sounds like a good idea
18:38:29 <mattdm> you mean a private call?
18:38:59 <bexelbie> mattdm, yes until the numbers can be shared publicly
18:39:06 <bexelbie> this would mostly be to show what the system can report for us
18:39:09 <bexelbie> to make sure we have no other needs
18:39:29 <bexelbie> I really don't want to release a region's numbers without the regional treasurer having seen them
18:39:34 <mattdm> bexelbie++
18:39:41 <mattdm> okay, next item?
18:39:51 <bexelbie> yes
18:39:53 <robyduck> +1
18:40:06 <mattdm> #topic Counting upgrades
18:40:08 <mattdm> https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/80
18:40:31 <mattdm> #info The current status of this is: lawyers have been asked about the privacy law implications, but so far they have just had more questions
18:40:37 <mattdm> #info hoping to get that resolved this week
18:41:05 <robyduck> mattdm: when it comes to lawyers, that's normally the case :)
18:41:24 <mattdm> #info there definitely is a design possiblity which doesn't use any generated identifier, so nothing that could be interpretted as a session cookie
18:41:53 <mattdm> #info the downside is that wouldn't give us any information about upgrades which are started but never finish due to errors
18:42:12 <mattdm> that's pretty much the summary. any questions? :)
18:42:56 <mattdm> guess not. :)
18:42:56 <bexelbie> Can the system offer an ABRT or something similar on failures just so we make sure we don't have a bug?
18:43:00 <mattdm> oh there we go
18:43:29 <mattdm> bexelbie If there's a crash, yes. If the update just scrambles things so the system doesn't boot, not so much
18:43:40 <bexelbie> makes sense
18:43:47 <bexelbie> I suspect we are doing it - but needed to make sure :)
18:44:05 <jkurik> I think it might be technically problematic as the system can be quite broked when ungrade fails
18:44:19 <mattdm> So a "Hi! I'm 15e4ec35-182f-4f8f running F24 and am about to upgrade" followed by "Hi! I'm a newly upgraded F25 system 15e4ec35-182f-4f8f" would be nice
18:44:22 <jkurik> s/ungrade/upgrade/
18:44:30 <mattdm> But it's not necessarily the main point of this feature anyway.
18:44:42 <mattdm> anyway, we will see what the lawyers say
18:45:02 <mattdm> moving on so we can get to jkurik's ominous message at the end :)
18:45:09 <kalev-afk> wouldn't it be easier to just use a separate user agent for upgrades?
18:45:09 <mattdm> #topic fixed election dates?
18:45:16 <mattdm> #undo
18:45:16 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Topic object at 0x44fcce90>
18:45:20 <jkurik> not ominous, really
18:45:44 <mattdm> kalev you mean to hit mirror-manager? perhaps.
18:45:53 <mattdm> but let's talk about that later :)
18:45:57 <mattdm> #topic fixed election dates?
18:46:01 <mattdm> https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/78
18:46:11 <mattdm> jwb was strongly -1 to this
18:46:22 * robyduck too
18:46:22 <jkurik> I am -1 as well
18:46:23 <mattdm> bexelbie, do you want to convince him, or should we just close this as declined
18:46:39 <mattdm> bexelbie that gives you two people to convince, if you so decide :)
18:46:52 * robyduck counts three people
18:47:08 <bexelbie> While I believe there is value in this idea, it is not something I am going to throw my (considerable) weight behind - it is lower on my priority list
18:47:37 <mattdm> robyduck: who else is -1, for the record? I only see the one from josh in the ticket
18:47:44 <mattdm> langdon, do you have an opinion?
18:47:51 <bexelbie> so we don't need to fix the dates if we don't see value in it
18:48:00 <bexelbie> or see hte values I pput forward as being compelling
18:48:09 <langdon> my connection disappeareed.. back now.. reading
18:48:36 <robyduck> mattdm: I commented there is no pro for this, so -1 from me too
18:48:41 <langdon> im -1 on the fixed.. but it is really like a -0.2
18:49:14 <mattdm> langdon: that basically counters my +0.5 :)
18:50:12 <mattdm> #topic firefox privacy issue
18:50:16 <mattdm> https://pagure.io/Fedora-Council/tickets/issue/60
18:50:22 <mattdm> okay this is kind of a big one for five minutes...
18:51:01 <mattdm> so I vote we skip this until the new year
18:51:18 <mattdm> since I picked it arbitrarily from the hat of open tickets anyway :)
18:51:25 <mattdm> let's go to open floor and jkurik's thing
18:51:29 <mattdm> #topic open floor
18:51:35 <jkurik> ok
18:51:44 <jkurik> Does anyone have any info about Remy DeCausemaker ? Is not he comming back to the Fedora community, as the US elections are over with the result as it is ?
18:51:50 <jkurik> I asking just because we have some open topics (like Oureach or FOSCo) where Remy was doing a good job before he left...
18:52:25 <mattdm> jkurik: I'm not sure. To my knowledge there isn't an open RH position, but of course he'll always be welcome in the community regardless of that
18:53:07 <jkurik> ok
18:53:30 * jkurik is sorry if it looked omnious
18:53:56 <mattdm> I believe his current job is for the dnc rather than the election or candidate directly, so I don't *think* that he's immediately out of a job
18:54:09 <mattdm> jkurik: it didn't really look ominous. just joking about that :)
18:54:14 <mattdm> anyone have anything else?
18:54:31 <bexelbie> jkurik, have you emailed or Fbooked him?
18:55:07 <jkurik> bexelbie: no (I am proud I do not have FB account :-) )
18:55:08 * bexelbie will contact him and just ask
18:55:14 <mattdm> bexelbie++
18:55:25 <bexelbie> however you need your pride, take it :)
18:55:38 <jkurik> bexelbie: I can ping him via email
18:55:54 <bexelbie> he is already answering me via an instant messaging system
18:55:56 <bexelbie> :)
18:56:04 <jkurik> :)
18:56:05 <bexelbie> well at least 3 dots are bouncing
18:57:45 <mattdm> I have to go get my kids from school
18:57:57 <mattdm> ending meeting in 3, 2, 1.
18:57:59 <mattdm> 3
18:58:00 <mattdm> 2
18:58:00 <bexelbie> +1 to end
18:58:02 <langdon> !
18:58:03 <mattdm> 1
18:58:08 <mattdm> ahhhhh
18:58:12 <mattdm> yes langdon?
18:58:19 <langdon> sorry
18:58:25 <mattdm> .fires langdon
18:58:28 <langdon> a SPECIAL !
18:58:30 <robyduck> :D
18:58:43 <mattdm> okay try again :)
18:58:46 <langdon> 3
18:58:47 <mattdm> 3
18:58:48 <langdon> 2
18:58:49 <langdon> 1
18:58:52 <mattdm> #endmeeting